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Old
03-20-2012, 10:47 PM
  #351
anderson3133
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Do you really know anything about testicular cancer?

It has a survival rate of over 90%.

Cancer is cancer and no joking matter, but it's amongst the most benign form of cancer.

And he was cured 16 months prior to that first playoff season.
My bad. I was under the impression that cancer had lingering effects and so do the surgeries.

Anywho, you're now belittling cancer and it's affects because 'it's the least deadliest of them.'

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03-20-2012, 10:49 PM
  #352
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My bad. I was under the impression that cancer had lingering effects and so do the surgeries.

Anywho, you're now belittling cancer and it's affects because 'it's the least deadliest of them.'
Where did I do that?

And again, that playoffs season took place 16 months after he recovered.

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03-20-2012, 10:52 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Don't talk about my sister that way (and she is my sister).

By the way, a Quebec student (even French-speaking) would know to write "you're" and "woman" in that sentence.
Excuse my spelling, I was just too excited to see what you were going to complain about next

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03-20-2012, 10:52 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Where did I do that?

And again, that playoffs season took place 16 months after he recovered.
You don't know when he recovered. Cancer has many side effects including physical and emotional distress. As a 19 year old I'm sure he was petrified, and likely still is, of it re-occurring. This year will be his 5 year testing period and I'm sure that's on his mind currently as well.

You were belittling it by using a survival rate.

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03-20-2012, 10:56 PM
  #355
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Excuse my spelling, I was just too excited to see what you were going to complain about next
I see you also missed the lesson on punctuation.

And when did I ever complain? I want year, month, day and time !

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03-20-2012, 11:10 PM
  #356
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I wouldn't call it a routine. It is a reality. Rome wasn't built in a day. Pittsburgh and Chicago were horrible for years before they won the cup.



Agreed. It will ring hollow eventually. At some point we will need to see some results, or at the very least see the team progressing forward. But despite this being Burke's third year, it isn't nearly long enough to turn this thing around. I would honestly give him three more years. If by then we are not in the playoffs then I would say he has failed.




I can't argue with this. Never liked Wilson. It's funny how so many people we dumbfounded as to why the PK was so bad under Wilson. It really shouldn't be a surprise. You can't ask players to play run and gun hockey for 90% of the game and then ask them to become defensive stalwarts for the 10% of time they are down a man. This team never knew how to play D under Wilson. Let's hope that changes under Carlyle.




I disagree with this. Burke had very little to work on the pro roster with when he came on board. When Stajan, Poni and Antropov are your best players, you have problems. And seeing how they are playing now on their new teams really backs this up. Burke has upgraded the forwards and defence. However more upgrades are required. He needs to parley the current players into even better ones. If he could get Phaneuf for Stajan, imagine what he could get for Phaneuf if he decided to tade him. Same goes for Lupul, Mac, etc.

Burke's biggest problem (and you prove this) is that he did a piss poor job managing expectations. If he just kept his big mouth shut and stopped yapping about top 6, bottom 6, truculence, etc, etc, he wouldn't find himself in the fire storm he is currently in now. Burke should have come in and said "we will do our very best to make the team as competitive as possible as quickly as possible without damaging and sacrificing the future", and just left it a that. As a PR man, he is his own worst enemy. As a hockey man, he has done a lot more good than bad (eventhough the results have not translated ont the ice... yet) and really that is a huge thing. GM's are human. Some better than other, some make more bad decisions than they do good ones. Thankfully Burke has made far more good decisions than bad IMO.
Wait a minute wait 1 damn minute, BB has upgrade our forwards and D? By what effing metric are you measuring this by?

The season before he took over we finished with 83 points, the season when he took over part way threw finished with 81 points.

He then gave us 74 and 85( fluke AHL level tender run) point seasons and we are on pace for what this year ?
76/77 points?

Please enlighten me where is the improvement? Where is the metric for such boastful claims?

"As a hockey man, he has done more good than bad , even though the results have not translated onto the ice ", where else do the results matter 1 EFFING BIT?

Oh wait i know, possibly the moves have opened up vast amounts of cap relief this year and next. That could be a positive not translated onto the ice, just yet.

OOOPs, my bad , i justed checked cap geeks.

OH OH I KNOW a stable of blue chippers to rival the likes of Hall,RNH,Eberly,MP

Ones that can go toe to toe with the Crosbys and Toews and the likes, OOPPS it must be the booze , i got ahead of myself again.

Sorry i need help, where exactly is this good work supposed to translate?

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03-20-2012, 11:16 PM
  #357
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This summer would be the perfect time to let him go before he has a chance to lock us into too many long term contracts.

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03-20-2012, 11:33 PM
  #358
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wrong thread

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03-21-2012, 04:00 AM
  #359
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This summer would be the perfect time to let him go before he has a chance to lock us into too many long term contracts.
Or trade the farm for Nash.

If we're lucky the real reason he didn't do any TLDs and fired Wilson was a message from the new owners to be. But otherwise...

IMHO the guy is finished here. The team is precisely the polar opposite of what he said he'd deliver. The fans have booed him at a game. The coaching change is an admission that the direction he and his BFF chose was a failure. That alone should seal his fate but then there's his performance here and the teams performance in the heat of a tough playoff position battle after 3.5 years of Burke. The Boston and Islander games. It goes on and on.

He has bolstered the prospects of a division rival when classic GM wisdom is not to trade within the division just in case that happens. He's unprofessional in his dealings with the media. This is the third time under Burke that he has had to go damage control to try and keep his team out of lottery territory when the lessons learned from the cap era point to the importance of draft picks. Which is just bizarre. Other new hire GMs have been able to do precisely what Burke has claimed to be able to do but failed to do by making the playoffs and even looking like a contender in a single season of work.
Or less than five whatever. The organization is completely devoid of elite talent at the development stage. That would be the lottery pick problem biting him in the butt.

It's all over but the crying. The man has failed here in TO. Hopefully this doesn't become Wilson act II. But I suppose we have to wait until the paperwork is completed before the new owners act. I think it unlikely they'll want to stick with an unpopular, big mouthed, failure of a GM to start their ownership era.

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03-21-2012, 07:26 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Huh? You're comparing different teams. Cammy looks done right now.
i'm comparing two players and their impact on their teams since they were acquired.

kessel vs. cammalleri has been a topic of conversation since each went to toronto/montreal.

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03-21-2012, 07:49 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Wendel17 View Post
I wouldn't call it a routine. It is a reality. Rome wasn't built in a day. Pittsburgh and Chicago were horrible for years before they won the cup.
its absolutely a routine. "have patience" is a a phrase used to keep critics quiet, nothing more than that.

pittsburgh won cups in 1991 and 1992. and won again in 2009. looking like the favorites to win again in 2012. how's that comparable to toronto?

the blackhawks were terrible for years and years, but did make it to the finals in 1992. so lets this say comparision isn't a bad one. does it make the current mess acceptable? because the blackhawks were terrible for years and years, its ok for the leafs? seems other teams are able to do much better.

Quote:
Agreed. It will ring hollow eventually. At some point we will need to see some results, or at the very least see the team progressing forward. But despite this being Burke's third year, it isn't nearly long enough to turn this thing around. I would honestly give him three more years. If by then we are not in the playoffs then I would say he has failed.
you'd be accepting of two more seasons out of the playoffs before saying burke has failed? that'd be a full decade with no playoffs for this team, and 5 with burke at the helm. those are some amazingly low expectations.

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I disagree with this. Burke had very little to work on the pro roster with when he came on board. When Stajan, Poni and Antropov are your best players, you have problems. And seeing how they are playing now on their new teams really backs this up.
that doesn't make any difference now. this current teams is entirely burke's team. he brought in or re-signed all of these guys who together are forming a horrendous nhl team.

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Burke's biggest problem (and you prove this) is that he did a piss poor job managing expectations. If he just kept his big mouth shut and stopped yapping about top 6, bottom 6, truculence, etc, etc, he wouldn't find himself in the fire storm he is currently in now.
that wouldn't have worked with me. regardless of what he said or didn't say, i'd be fully expecting to be in the playoffs by now. i certainly wouldn't be willing to accept 2 or 3 more years after this one without a playoff game. i can't imagine any fan would.

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As a hockey man, he has done a lot more good than bad (eventhough the results have not translated ont the ice... yet) and really that is a huge thing. GM's are human. Some better than other, some make more bad decisions than they do good ones. Thankfully Burke has made far more good decisions than bad IMO.
again, the results say you're dead wrong about this. i don't understand how you can argue he's done all these great things, yet there's no evidence of it in the standings.

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03-21-2012, 11:25 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
its absolutely a routine. "have patience" is a a phrase used to keep critics quiet, nothing more than that.

pittsburgh won cups in 1991 and 1992. and won again in 2009. looking like the favorites to win again in 2012. how's that comparable to toronto?

the blackhawks were terrible for years and years, but did make it to the finals in 1992. so lets this say comparision isn't a bad one. does it make the current mess acceptable? because the blackhawks were terrible for years and years, its ok for the leafs? seems other teams are able to do much better.
The Pens and Hawks were bad for a long time before winning their latest cups. I was comparing them to Leafs in that context, not necessarily back to 1967, but you do make a good point. I won't deny that.

And no, just because they sucked for a long time doesn't make it OK for the Leafs to stink as well. But the original point being, it takes time for a team to dig themselves out of a huge hole hence Chi and Pit examples.

In terms of "Rome being built in a day", I was again referring in the context of Burke. He's only been here 3 years. I don't feel like that is a lot of time given the mess he inherited.

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you'd be accepting of two more seasons out of the playoffs before saying burke has failed? that'd be a full decade with no playoffs for this team, and 5 with burke at the helm. those are some amazingly low expectations.
I would accept two more years of no playoffs provided we could see things coming together. And honestly, despite this latest losing streak I think we can see things moving in the right direction. We have better assets now then we did before Burke came on board. Now it's a matter of fitting the pieces together and changing some of them out if need be for upgrades.

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that doesn't make any difference now. this current teams is entirely burke's team. he brought in or re-signed all of these guys who together are forming a horrendous nhl team.
This losing skid has been beyond brutal, but this team has shown that they can play. You probably weren't saying this two months ago.


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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
that wouldn't have worked with me. regardless of what he said or didn't say, i'd be fully expecting to be in the playoffs by now. i certainly wouldn't be willing to accept 2 or 3 more years after this one without a playoff game. i can't imagine any fan would.
I can't imagine any NHL exec would have been able to turn this thing around in 3 years, even Ken Holland. People were expecting too much.


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again, the results say you're dead wrong about this. i don't understand how you can argue he's done all these great things, yet there's no evidence of it in the standings.
I can't argue this. At the end of the day you are who the standings say you are. And right now the standings are not saying anything good about us. But let's not forget that Chicago, Pittsburgh and Washington were not overnight power houses after drafting their best players. It took time for all the pieces to come together. Burke has assembled some very good pieces (Lupul, Kessel, Gardiner, Ashton, Coulbourne, Kadri) and to a lesser extent some other pieces like Bozak, Scrivens, Rynnas.

Despite the current losing streak, I would take this core over the Poni, Antro, Stajan core any day of the week. That teams ceiling was 9th place. This team with time and adjustments has a much high ceiling IMO.

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03-21-2012, 01:22 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Wendel17 View Post
The Pens and Hawks were bad for a long time before winning their latest cups. I was comparing them to Leafs in that context, not necessarily back to 1967, but you do make a good point. I won't deny that.

In terms of "Rome being built in a day", I was again referring in the context of Burke. He's only been here 3 years. I don't feel like that is a lot of time given the mess he inherited.
lets look at the blackhawks example. in 03-04 they had 59 points. in 05-06 (post-lockout) they had 65. in 06-07 they had 71.

three seasons after their 71 point season, finishing 11 games under .500, they won the stanley cup.

it would seem they dug themselves out of a much bigger hole than burke had to deal with. burke inhereted a team that had 83 points and was over .500. the previous two years those teams had 90 and 91 points. i think the mess burke supposedly inhereted is vastly over-stated.

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I would accept two more years of no playoffs provided we could see things coming together.
the problem with this is that some people see what they want to see. no problem to make youself believe things are getting better, even when the proof says otherwise. we're seeing that now.

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This losing skid has been beyond brutal, but this team has shown that they can play. You probably weren't saying this two months ago.
no, because they weren't as bad then as they are now. as you say, the team is what the standings say it is.

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I can't imagine any NHL exec would have been able to turn this thing around in 3 years, even Ken Holland. People were expecting too much.
disagree completely. this was a .500 team that burke took over. the right changes and transactions could easily have pushed this team in the right direction, not the wrong direction like burke has done. a smart gm could have done far better.

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I can't argue this. At the end of the day you are who the standings say you are. And right now the standings are not saying anything good about us. But let's not forget that Chicago, Pittsburgh and Washington were not overnight power houses after drafting their best players. It took time for all the pieces to come together. Burke has assembled some very good pieces (Lupul, Kessel, Gardiner, Ashton, Coulbourne, Kadri) and to a lesser extent some other pieces like Bozak, Scrivens, Rynnas.
when you look around at the other teams in the east, do you see the leafs' future as being brighter than most others? i look around, and i see every team with good young prospects and players who are only going to get better. in fact, many of them seem to have more potential than our kids.

we're pinning our hopes on kids like kadri, colborne, ashton, gardiner, etc. but doesn't every team seem to have this quality in their system?

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03-21-2012, 02:58 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Wendel17 View Post
(...)
I can't imagine any NHL exec would have been able to turn this thing around in 3 years, even Ken Holland. People were expecting too much.
(...)
Based on promises made by Burkie.

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Originally Posted by Wendel17 View Post
(...) Burke has assembled some very good pieces (Lupul, Kessel, Gardiner, Ashton, Coulbourne, Kadri) and to a lesser extent some other pieces like Bozak, Scrivens, Rynnas.
(...)
I would place these 3 in the latter group.

But there's nothing wrong in being optimistic.

Look at Gardiner.

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03-21-2012, 03:01 PM
  #365
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Do you know what I'd be OK with?

Our 1st++ for Getzlaf
Signing Vokoun
Add grit and toughness throughout lineup (Parros, etc.)

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03-21-2012, 03:05 PM
  #366
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Do you know what I'd be OK with?

Our 1st++ for Getzlaf
Signing Vokoun
Add grit and toughness throughout lineup (Parros, etc.)
and the wheels of the bus go round and round.......

Build through draft, do not trade a 1st ever.

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03-21-2012, 03:15 PM
  #367
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Ooops wrong thread.

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Old
03-21-2012, 04:21 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
lets look at the blackhawks example. in 03-04 they had 59 points. in 05-06 (post-lockout) they had 65. in 06-07 they had 71.

three seasons after their 71 point season, finishing 11 games under .500, they won the stanley cup.

it would seem they dug themselves out of a much bigger hole than burke had to deal with. burke inhereted a team that had 83 points and was over .500. the previous two years those teams had 90 and 91 points. i think the mess burke supposedly inhereted is vastly over-stated.
Winning the draft lottery to move up from 5 to #1 to draft Kane certainly helped a lot. Sometime luck plays a big role.


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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
the problem with this is that some people see what they want to see. no problem to make youself believe things are getting better, even when the proof says otherwise. we're seeing that now.
Very true. I am one of those people that sees the positives in the current situation despite the current record. But as I said earlier, things need to progress. I will not support Burke should this team stay static.


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no, because they weren't as bad then as they are now. as you say, the team is what the standings say it is.
Fair enough. But let me ask you, if they were to win all their remaining games and claw their way to 9th place, what would you say then? They basically would have the same record as the pre-Burke team that you have referred to in this discussion.


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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
disagree completely. this was a .500 team that burke took over. the right changes and transactions could easily have pushed this team in the right direction, not the wrong direction like burke has done. a smart gm could have done far better.
Maybe. You could argue Burke tried to do that by getting Kessel. Augmenting that lineup by adding a young up and coming goal scorer. However it didn't work out. And not because of Kessel. But because a core of Stajan, Poni, Antro, and Hagman is not what contenders are made of. If you were GM would have seriously kept that core and added to it? Did you really believe in that team? I sure didn't despite their 500 record.


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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
when you look around at the other teams in the east, do you see the leafs' future as being brighter than most others? i look around, and i see every team with good young prospects and players who are only going to get better. in fact, many of them seem to have more potential than our kids.
I see the present in disarray, but the future much brighter than ever. Compared to other teams it's hard to say if ours is brighter or not, but compared to Leaf prospects of years gone by, I definitely feel like this is the best we've had.

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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
we're pinning our hopes on kids like kadri, colborne, ashton, gardiner, etc. but doesn't every team seem to have this quality in their system?
Hard to say. Picks and prospects are like a roll of the dice. Hopefully they work out well for us and better then the competitions do for them.

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03-21-2012, 07:01 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Wendel17 View Post
Winning the draft lottery to move up from 5 to #1 to draft Kane certainly helped a lot. Sometime luck plays a big role.
yeah, that stroke of luck played a role. we can't chalk it all up to luck though.

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Fair enough. But let me ask you, if they were to win all their remaining games and claw their way to 9th place, what would you say then? They basically would have the same record as the pre-Burke team that you have referred to in this discussion.
winning the remaining games would give us 88 points, and lets say 9th place. we're out of the playoffs. basically no difference than the team burke inhereted. so i'd say he's doing a terrible job. i would have expected a big-time improvement by now.

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Maybe. You could argue Burke tried to do that by getting Kessel. Augmenting that lineup by adding a young up and coming goal scorer. However it didn't work out.
i don't think there's any argument, he absolutely did try to improve this team by leaps and bounds. he added kessel and phaneuf, two young-ish stars. he's added versteeg, komisarek, macarthur, armstrong, connolly, gustavsson, liles, etc. over the past couple of years. he added those guys for immediate help, immediate upgrades.

it all looks nice on paper, but it hasn't worked out. the team is no better. that's burke's fault. he's failed, and perhaps someone else could do a much better job.

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And not because of Kessel. But because a core of Stajan, Poni, Antro, and Hagman is not what contenders are made of. If you were GM would have seriously kept that core and added to it? Did you really believe in that team? I sure didn't despite their 500 record.
no, i wouldn't have liked to have seen burke keep that core.

Quote:
I see the present in disarray, but the future much brighter than ever. Compared to other teams it's hard to say if ours is brighter or not, but compared to Leaf prospects of years gone by, I definitely feel like this is the best we've had.
sure, we have some good looking prospects. but we always have. and other teams have the same. this is not any sort of advantage for the leafs going forward. i don't see any big change in this area.

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