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Old
03-21-2012, 02:29 PM
  #126
diceman934
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Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
You can interpret my words as you wish, but I haven't thrown insults.

Since the beginning, I've collectively referred to the fanbase as 'we', and anybody I've discussed with, I've included both themselves and myself in the same boat.
Sorry you have verbally abused me many times....do not break you leg when you jump down from that rather high soapbox you are on


Last edited by diceman934: 03-21-2012 at 02:38 PM.
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Old
03-21-2012, 02:31 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
Though I'm sure the team is feeling the same way. As another poster mentioned earlier, being a player, the voice of the fans gets into your head in a violent way.
I don't think you understand the dynamics of the situation. You're approaching it with the naivety of a kid who suggests his parents solve their money troubles by going to the cash machine.

The fans spend their hard-earned money to watch and follow the team. Hard-earned money as in they probably had to eat sh** at some point in a time or another at some place they'd rather not be. Money earned at a place where results are expected or else. Nobody's cheering them regardless of performance.

The players are paid money to perform for paying customers. If those customers want to voice their disapproval at their performance, they are entitled to.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:34 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Grabowaffle84 View Post
Your telling everyone here how they are suppose to cheer for this team and to support them no matter what. We do support them but if we are pointing fingers because the team is underperforming then so be it because we have every right to. I'm not going to feel sorry for them and not blame anyone for this sorry excuse for a hockey team. Someone always has to be held accountable when there is failure.

I am not going to sugar coat anything and be all jolly that the team has gone nowhere in the last 7 years like you want everyone to do.

"That's okay guys keep trying hard, You will get them eventually" That doesn't work for me.
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Originally Posted by Morlu View Post
I love the Leafs. I just can't support such a heartless squad. Players like Roberts, Tucker, Clark, Gilmour would not be floating out there after being embarrassed.

They would fight, hit and do anything to motivate the team. Win or lose the team and players have to be likeable. I don't think any player on the team with the exception of Lupul is anyone I care about. Unlike previous teams.

I think it pretty hard to stomache that anyone would "cheer" the Leafs on if you were at that 8-0, 5-2 game. I'd be embarrassed if you cheered for me after a game like that.
I don't expect anybody to whoop for them at the end of a game like that. When I say cheer, I mean root. When you can't do that, support them still. I think the greatest fans in the world are European football team's fans. Even when they lose, they heckle and boo and berate, yes. But they do it to the other team, and then they brawl with the other team's fans.

That's the kind of fire you can light under your team. If you're a player and you see that, it drives you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hulksmash View Post
In my life I don't ever mind getting criticized at the end of the day it will only make you a better and stronger person, it's part of life. You can't expect not to be criticized ever. One day or one way or another you will face that...yeah it might not go down well at first but you will slowly realise and thank that person in the long run.
There is constructive criticism, and there is blatant heckling/booing/berating/insulting, and a clear difference between them.

Constructive criticism can be seen as a form of support, and I'm all for that.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:36 PM
  #129
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the great thing about sports is that there a million different ways to see things. from players who play a certain style some people will hate others will love, to the different systems you can play, some will love some will hate and want change, to how to build a team, to who is at fault when a goal is score against your team. everything in sports. and to think you will get millions of people who support this team to be all together as one is a bit ridicoulous. to believe we will all be together even if the leafs were compitive some would argue this is the year to win it all others would argue no because thats what they believe, or just want to take the other side because no one else is playing devils advocate which can be fun from time to time. what you call bickering, I call debating, which is something I consider fun to do espicially over something that can be seen a million different ways, it's why I come to this site. I wouldn't be around here if everyone always agreed on everything because that would be extremely boring.

as for the leafs example personally I have a different philosophy of how you should build a hockey team then how Burke has taken and so when I see the team failing year after year I'm going to critize Burke for the job that he's done. if he took the route I prefered and failed I would back him but he's not so I'm not gonna sit here and not critize Burke. as for the team itself I try and cheer for what I believe is best for the team and right now thats losing, nothing good will come out of winning and finishing 9-10 it's just not whats in the teams best interest long term, if people think that I'm not supporting the team your wrong I want whats best for the team long term because it's not happening this year.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:36 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by StarBurns View Post
I don't think you understand the dynamics of the situation. You're approaching it with the naivety of a kid who suggests his parents solve their money troubles by going to the cash machine.

The fans spend their hard-earned money to watch and follow the team. Hard-earned money as in they probably had to eat sh** at some point in a time or another at some place they'd rather not be. Money earned at a place where results are expected or else. Nobody's cheering them regardless of performance.

The players are paid money to perform for paying customers. If those customers want to voice their disapproval at their performance, they are entitled to.
Berating and booing will not get your money back. It will only waste the money you spend in the future, because it will only diminish the product.

I am not telling ANYBODY to be satisfied with the product on the ice, but most of you are only making it worse.

See the post of mine above. If you want to light a fire and vent your frustrations, boo and heckle the other team, or pick a fight with one of their obnoxious fans.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:37 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
My simple statement stands: berating the team does nothing more than step on them while they're drowning.
When they were drowning, there wasn't alot of heckling and booing but they aren't drowning right now, they have already drowned. It's over before April for the 7th straight season and when that became apparant, the berating started.

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03-21-2012, 02:38 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
the great thing about sports is that there a million different ways to see things. from players who play a certain style some people will hate others will love, to the different systems you can play, some will love some will hate and want change, to how to build a team, to who is at fault when a goal is score against your team. everything in sports. and to think you will get millions of people who support this team to be all together as one is a bit ridicoulous. to believe we will all be together even if the leafs were compitive some would argue this is the year to win it all others would argue no because thats what they believe, or just want to take the other side because no one else is playing devils advocate which can be fun from time to time. what you call bickering, I call debating, which is something I consider fun to do espicially over something that can be seen a million different ways, it's why I come to this site. I wouldn't be around here if everyone always agreed on everything because that would be extremely boring.

as for the leafs example personally I have a different philosophy of how you should build a hockey team then how Burke has taken and so when I see the team failing year after year I'm going to critize Burke for the job that he's done. if he took the route I prefered and failed I would back him but he's not so I'm not gonna sit here and not critize Burke. as for the team itself I try and cheer for what I believe is best for the team and right now thats losing, nothing good will come out of winning and finishing 9-10 it's just not whats in the teams best interest long term, if people think that I'm not supporting the team your wrong I want whats best for the team long term because it's not happening this year.
This thread is not about Burke. Boo and heckle HIM all you want. It's the players that are battling for us, that we boo and tear down, that I'm talking about.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:39 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Sorry you have verbally abused me many times....do not break you leg when you jump down from that rather high soapbox you are on
If you choose to take it that way, sure.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:44 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
If you choose to take it that way, sure.
Insulting a persons intelligence can only be taken only one way.....Critical thinking is involved before hitting the submit reply button.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:45 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
Berating and booing will not get your money back. It will only waste the money you spend in the future, because it will only diminish the product.

I am not telling ANYBODY to be satisfied with the product on the ice, but most of you are only making it worse.

See the post of mine above. If you want to light a fire and vent your frustrations, boo and heckle the other team, or pick a fight with one of their obnoxious fans.
You are being very naive here. The Leafs are in a terrible state and in reality, the fans are completely helpless, both in terms of how the players perform on the ice and how management chooses to construct the team. Yet you are assigning some kind of agency to our basically helpless position as bystanders, suggesting we play a more active role in the goings ons with the Leafs than we actually do. In doing so, you are blaming people who are not at fault (the fans) and suggesting we have more power to help rectify things than we actually do (though positive thinking).

That's really sad.

As much as we complain, it's just a hockey team. We're being angry and passionate and negative, but it is just a hobby and it's just another time wasting entertainment product. Real life goes on.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:46 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
30% of the fans on this board who bothered to vote in the poll. 70% of those same fans don't want him fired.

You say it is rising. Do you have anything to back that claim up?

And do you really think it this board is representative of the Leafs fanbase as a whole? I certainly don't. I think the noisy lunatic fringe of Leafs Nation has a much higher presence on these boards than amongst other gathering of Leaf fans and personal, i think they have driven away a number of the more rational posters.
Depends on how you see something as rational. Seeing all these fans realize that Burke has done a poor job and are now asking for a change is rational. It is what has actually happened. What could be more rational than looking at the results since he has been in Toronto?

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03-21-2012, 02:49 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Insulting a persons intelligence can only be taken only one way.....Critical thinking is involved before hitting the submit reply button.
Well, there's the pot calling the kettle black! Get over it and man up! Guy's been nothing but cordial with all of you!

No wonder your all up in arms with this team, look who sensitive you are!!

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Old
03-21-2012, 03:03 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
Well, there's the pot calling the kettle black! Get over it and man up! Guy's been nothing but cordial with all of you!

No wonder your all up in arms with this team, look who sensitive you are!!
But apparently not as sensitive as the players! The condescending OP keeps telling us the team will collapse (how will we tell?) if even a small part of the crowd dares to voice their displeasure with the on-ice product.

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03-21-2012, 03:04 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Voodoo Child View Post
Good.****ing.Post.

Am I happy about how the season has gone? **** no; the last 5 weeks have put me on team tank (as opposed to team make-a-last-minute-charge-to-9th-in-the-East); and yes, I am at this point preferring a loss (though not like the last two disgraceful outings) to a win, but if they win, I'm not down about it.

I'm not hating the team or turning my back on it, I'm a realist; I wasn't expecting the Leafs to turn from a 21st overall team to a top-6 contender in one season (the fall has been disappointing, but at the same time not totally shocking), it's going to take time, and sadly, it's probably going to take quite a bit of time (expect at least one more year of being out of the playoffs and at least three until we're a top-ten team...guys like Gardiner, Schenn, Blacker, Percy, Ashton, Colborne, Kadri, Galchenyuk, Biggs and McKegg are a fine group of young players, but they need plenty of seasoning still), but that's okay...it's not like I spend my hard earned dollars to go to the games anyways.
Neither do any of us. But how about four years? Cause that's how long Burke has had this 21st team and we have not improved at all.

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Old
03-21-2012, 03:06 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
Well, there's the pot calling the kettle black! Get over it and man up! Guy's been nothing but cordial with all of you!

No wonder your all up in arms with this team, look who sensitive you are!!
Me calling the kettle black.....well no! Defending my self sure!

I have been personally attacked and I did give it back but got an infraction and since have not....I do not start fights but I am willing to finish them.

Quote:
No wonder your all up in arms with this team, look who sensitive you are!
I am many things but sensitive is not one of them.

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03-21-2012, 03:07 PM
  #141
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What an entertaining 6-page read. I do agree with the OP, but I'm not going to get into details and trying to rationalize anything to those on the other side of the fence who will only disagree.

Back on point to the OP's first post, I think everyone in this debate can agree that this team is in no position to trade picks/prospects and those types of assets for a 'quick-fix'. And by booing this team perpetually, chanting "Fire Burke" is only putting more pressure on Burke to make a short-sighted move that moves valuable assets for something short-term to just get the Leafs into the playoffs. That's what I'm worried about the most.

It's obvious Burke knows the fanbase isn't happy with this team losing for so long, and it's more apparent than ever that he'll make more significant moves to better the team. I ask the fanbase to not pressure him to the point where he makes a bad long-term move for short-term only gain, because that's the direction it's heading. Burke's done a good job ignoring those kinds of cheers during his tenure, but I'm not sure how much more he can take.

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Old
03-21-2012, 03:16 PM
  #142
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Any self-respecting player would use the boos as motivation to improve.

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03-21-2012, 03:17 PM
  #143
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i'm not going to go and lash out because the leafs were overachieving for most of the season. i knew what we had and i know what we are missing. i never liked a lot of the decisions in the last few years and the Leafs seem further from being a playoff team/contender than they were when JFJ was in charge. i am always a fan, but i am pretty angry because the team is bad. it looks like we might have to wait 3-4 years to see competitive hockey in toronto and i am supposed to be grateful or a happy fan?

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03-21-2012, 05:21 PM
  #144
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Let's summarize the premise of this thread:

1. The team can't perform to its best without the full support of its fans. To an adult it's a fairly weak premise that paid athletes need the full support of their fans to perform their best. They already play half of their games in front of far more hostile audiences than their own crowd even at its most disappointed. No one likes to be disliked (or at least normal people), I get that but so far no single player has been anointed as the lone scapegoat so really what Leaf is secretly crying into his leather steering wheel as he heads home from a game where the team was booed?
2. There's this naive Peter Pan theory that usually fans outgrow in their teenage years that if only the fans would really believe in Tinker Bell, er, <insert your favourite team's name here>, they would scale to heights unimagined. Let's all start clapping kiddies. Grow up, Tinker Bell isn't real.
3. There's also a faulty assumption that a large portion of the personnel is part of the future solution for the hockey club. Poorly performing hockey clubs usually contain very few future solutions unless they are rookies.
4. Lastly, there's the "no one will want to come here" argument. Sorry guys, the team has been booed many times before and UFAs continue to sign here. Half of the roster contains players who have chosen to sign here as free agents or re-sign before becoming free agents.

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03-21-2012, 06:30 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by StarBurns View Post
Let's summarize the premise of this thread:

1. The team can't perform to its best without the full support of its fans. To an adult it's a fairly weak premise that paid athletes need the full support of their fans to perform their best. They already play half of their games in front of far more hostile audiences than their own crowd even at its most disappointed. No one likes to be disliked (or at least normal people), I get that but so far no single player has been anointed as the lone scapegoat so really what Leaf is secretly crying into his leather steering wheel as he heads home from a game where the team was booed?
2. There's this naive Peter Pan theory that usually fans outgrow in their teenage years that if only the fans would really believe in Tinker Bell, er, <insert your favourite team's name here>, they would scale to heights unimagined. Let's all start clapping kiddies. Grow up, Tinker Bell isn't real.
3. There's also a faulty assumption that a large portion of the personnel is part of the future solution for the hockey club. Poorly performing hockey clubs usually contain very few future solutions unless they are rookies.
4. Lastly, there's the "no one will want to come here" argument. Sorry guys, the team has been booed many times before and UFAs continue to sign here. Half of the roster contains players who have chosen to sign here as free agents or re-sign before becoming free agents.
Great post. To add on to the 1st point, in MANY of those away games, the arenas are full of Leafs fans cheering the Leafs on, no matter how far away from home. The Leafs get more road support than ANY other team. How can anyone argue that the fans are the reason they are struggling?

And as you said, the team is booed as a team. There's not one player. The exception is if a goalie struggles hard in the beginning of the game and *finally* makes a save for the sarcastic cheer. But the goalies know they've had bad games (post-game interviews, etc.) The Leafs aren't getting booed as they exit the tunnel for warm-ups or for opening face-off. The boos come later in the game when the team is down by 2+ goals. There are still "Go Leafs Go" chants when the team is down 1 early on. But collapses draw out the boos.

And a lot of that booing is for Burke, now that Wilson is gone, and the team is not any better than it was 4 years ago.

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03-21-2012, 07:07 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
The Hypocrisy

I've noticed recently that the majority of the fanbase are blatant hypocrites.

I say this because the MLSE fanbase (from here on, referred to as 'we', because I am apart of all of you) call out the athletes-the competitors- for savagely crumbling when the going gets tough...

Yet we, as observers, cannot even bear to watch it without breaking down into a giant pile full of sadistic turmoil. We break apart and start bickering with each other, and lose both our drive and unity as a fanbase. Twist it into something harmful. We fracture like a window into broken glass.

Gather our skirts and take the hits like men

All the commentary--the media--the chants--the I-know-better-improvement rants; they have all only built up our sense of entitlement and suffocated both our team's confidence and drive.

In this atmosphere, we know for certain the media and commentary gets back to the players-- in one form or another. We're doing damage in our collapse as a fanbase. We have a habit to complain and hate for better or worse. Toughen up as fans, and try to cheer for better or worse.

If we want the team, the organization, to straighten their backs and fight with a fire, maybe we should light that fire under them--NO! not with our critic-hate-ridden complaints. With fiery support and the will to push the team forward.

How about when our champ is knocked down onto the mat, we not heckle and mock them for falling. We cheer and support them, encouraging them to stand back up and embolden their hearts.

A million people baying for blood can shrink you. A million people calling out support can motivate you to win.

That's what we want, right?

To win.
problem is the ACC is always so quiet you can hear a pin drop.

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03-21-2012, 07:34 PM
  #147
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Depends on how you see something as rational. Seeing all these fans realize that Burke has done a poor job and are now asking for a change is rational. It is what has actually happened. What could be more rational than looking at the results since he has been in Toronto?
I didn't see any Burke bashing until March. What happened before that? Using rational thinking, we assume that it's because of the 20 game slide since Feb. Now who is deciding on Burke's tenure using measly 20 games?

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03-21-2012, 07:42 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Pyromaniac3 View Post
I didn't see any Burke bashing until March. What happened before that? Using rational thinking, we assume that it's because of the 20 game slide since Feb. Now who is deciding on Burke's tenure using measly 20 games?
You mean the 240+ games he's been here for right?

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03-21-2012, 07:47 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Pyromaniac3 View Post
I didn't see any Burke bashing until March. What happened before that? Using rational thinking, we assume that it's because of the 20 game slide since Feb. Now who is deciding on Burke's tenure using measly 20 games?
I see the last 20 games as the "tipping point" of a lot of moves that were questionable. But after the Leafs all but locked up a playoff spot this season, fans were able to say, "The Kessel trade clearly wasn't great, but at least this team finally gets some playoff hockey," etc. But now that the team plummeted to the ground, Burke clearly has not achieved anything. He promised 4 years, the fans gave him 4 years, and here he is at the end of year 4, and with failure. So it makes sense that Burke is bashed now.

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03-21-2012, 07:48 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
The Hypocrisy

I've noticed recently that the majority of the fanbase are blatant hypocrites.

I say this because the MLSE fanbase (from here on, referred to as 'we', because I am apart of all of you) call out the athletes-the competitors- for savagely crumbling when the going gets tough...

Yet we, as observers, cannot even bear to watch it without breaking down into a giant pile full of sadistic turmoil. We break apart and start bickering with each other, and lose both our drive and unity as a fanbase. Twist it into something harmful. We fracture like a window into broken glass.

Gather our skirts and take the hits like men

All the commentary--the media--the chants--the I-know-better-improvement rants; they have all only built up our sense of entitlement and suffocated both our team's confidence and drive.

In this atmosphere, we know for certain the media and commentary gets back to the players-- in one form or another. We're doing damage in our collapse as a fanbase. We have a habit to complain and hate for better or worse. Toughen up as fans, and try to cheer for better or worse.

If we want the team, the organization, to straighten their backs and fight with a fire, maybe we should light that fire under them--NO! not with our critic-hate-ridden complaints. With fiery support and the will to push the team forward.

How about when our champ is knocked down onto the mat, we not heckle and mock them for falling. We cheer and support them, encouraging them to stand back up and embolden their hearts.

A million people baying for blood can shrink you. A million people calling out support can motivate you to win.

That's what we want, right?

To win.

Well said. Thank you.

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