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Game 73 | Washington Capitals @ Detroit Red Wings | 7:30 PM EST | FS-D (HD) | ‎

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Old
03-21-2012, 12:35 AM
  #351
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
how much can Ericsson's worth really be measured by points though? he's more of a defensive(and PK) defenseman
Oh now let's don't let the facts get in the way.

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03-21-2012, 12:38 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Maybe. If that guy isn't Wiz.
Yeah, I don't like Wiz that much myself.
but it's weird that the guys who laugh about the Wiz deal are the same ones who defend the idea of paying Ericsson and Quincey

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03-21-2012, 01:03 AM
  #353
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Yeah, I don't like Wiz that much myself.
but it's weird that the guys who laugh about the Wiz deal are the same ones who defend the idea of paying Ericsson and Quincey
Is it really that weird? Ericsson's deal comes in at just under $10 million. Quincey will probably get the same treatment. Wiz will make $33 million. Combined, they'll probably only reach 66% of that Wiz contract. Wiz is the 15th highest paid defender in the league.

Apples to oranges or some other weird fruit.

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03-21-2012, 01:41 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Is it really that weird? Ericsson's deal comes in at just under $10 million. Quincey will probably get the same treatment. Wiz will make $33 million. Combined, they'll probably only reach 66% of that Wiz contract. Wiz is the 15th highest paid defender in the league.

Apples to oranges or some other weird fruit.

Their cap hit is about 60 percent of Wisniewski's
It is weird.
I think just about everyone would agree Wiz is a 3-4 defenseman.
Quincey/Ericsson are 5-6 defensemen.

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03-21-2012, 02:16 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Their cap hit is about 60 percent of Wisniewski's
It is weird.
I think just about everyone would agree Wiz is a 3-4 defenseman.
Quincey/Ericsson are 5-6 defensemen.
On the Wings Wiz would probably be a 5/6 defenceman, on Columbus Quincey would be their 2nd highest scoring Defender but probably not a first pairing guy since J. Johnson and him would be the least defensively responsible pairing in hockey history.

Ericsson would probably be #4 on the Jackets

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03-21-2012, 10:12 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
On the Wings Wiz would probably be a 5/6 defenceman, on Columbus Quincey would be their 2nd highest scoring Defender but probably not a first pairing guy since J. Johnson and him would be the least defensively responsible pairing in hockey history.

Ericsson would probably be #4 on the Jackets
Ericsson is better than Wisniewski now?

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Last edited by Fugu: 03-21-2012 at 11:12 AM. Reason: play nice
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03-21-2012, 10:14 AM
  #357
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James Wisniewski is awesome.

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03-21-2012, 10:43 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Ericsson is better than Wisniewski now?
How did you get THAT out of what I posted?

I think he'd be ahead of Ericsson and behind or even with Quincey.

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03-21-2012, 08:35 PM
  #359
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I think it's mostly unfair to compare the newest guys to any of the guys who were here all year, simply for adjustment reasons alone. THEN if you factor in when these guys are getting IT (during the worst injury spate in a while), does anyone truly want to use that as the best indicator of their potential on a mostly healthy roster?

I sure wouldn't.

What one can do fairly, imo, is observe that White is struggling in his top four role sans Lidstrom. We knew he wasn't super great defensively, but he was having a great offensive year. Now it may be safe to say that he's very complementary to Lids (and Dats). It should also be noted that there are defenders who may have gotten similar IT, but didn't do nearly as well as White offensively.

I'm try to say is that expectation for Quincy have been a little to high with the amount of injuries that have occurred and the amount of time he Has been with the Red Wings.

I expected him to be a 4 to 5 defenseman at most this year with the expectation that he would move into the top 4 four next year (presuming the loss of Stuart and possibly Lidstrom). The thought I had with the trade was the Red Wings didn't have enough penalty killers and adding Quincy would also take Hudler off the point on the power play. In effect adding him as a forward thus improving our second unit power play. Also taking away some Lidstrom penalty kill responsibilities and if one of them went in the Box we had an extra. Thus the Red Wings didn't have to play White, Kindl or Smith on the penalty kill depending on who is playing if one of the main penalty killer was in the box. I think Quincy addes more versatility to our defense because of the ability to play both penalty kill, and powerplay.

With White he has been with the team all year and I just expect more from him. He has been being pushed around physically lately and losing battles in the corner lately. He has also been being beat around the outside with faster skaters. This has been getting worse as the season has progressed. I think Lidstrom hide a lot of his defects to his game though but that is what a generation play or great players should do is make there teammate better. In all though he has done very well this season with the salary the Red Wings have payed him.

The complicating fact is Smith and the what ifs with him. He is a little out of position defensively but he can skate. In the Ranger game right now he has made at least one mistake but was not caught which was good. That's the only thing that make Quincy trade look bad (also waived) to me but he still can't play on the penalty kill right now. What if he was here all season though or the Ben Smith hit never occurred? Food for thought.

Sorry I'm new to this. I've been reading for years but have never wrote. Don't mean to be offensive to anyone

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03-21-2012, 10:34 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by jazz7266 View Post
I'm try to say is that expectation for Quincy have been a little to high with the amount of injuries that have occurred and the amount of time he Has been with the Red Wings.

I expected him to be a 4 to 5 defenseman at most this year with the expectation that he would move into the top 4 four next year (presuming the loss of Stuart and possibly Lidstrom). The thought I had with the trade was the Red Wings didn't have enough penalty killers and adding Quincy would also take Hudler off the point on the power play. In effect adding him as a forward thus improving our second unit power play. Also taking away some Lidstrom penalty kill responsibilities and if one of them went in the Box we had an extra. Thus the Red Wings didn't have to play White, Kindl or Smith on the penalty kill depending on who is playing if one of the main penalty killer was in the box. I think Quincy addes more versatility to our defense because of the ability to play both penalty kill, and powerplay.

With White he has been with the team all year and I just expect more from him. He has been being pushed around physically lately and losing battles in the corner lately. He has also been being beat around the outside with faster skaters. This has been getting worse as the season has progressed. I think Lidstrom hide a lot of his defects to his game though but that is what a generation play or great players should do is make there teammate better. In all though he has done very well this season with the salary the Red Wings have payed him.

The complicating fact is Smith and the what ifs with him. He is a little out of position defensively but he can skate. In the Ranger game right now he has made at least one mistake but was not caught which was good. That's the only thing that make Quincy trade look bad (also waived) to me but he still can't play on the penalty kill right now. What if he was here all season though or the Ben Smith hit never occurred? Food for thought.

Sorry I'm new to this. I've been reading for years but have never wrote. Don't mean to be offensive to anyone

Welcome to HFBoards Wings section, jazz.

All very good points. I tend to agree that realistically trying to assess the new guys during this particular run isn't the best approach.

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03-22-2012, 09:34 AM
  #361
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You honestly believe that Smith has impressed less than Ericsson and Kindl?

Ericsson has 63 NHL games played this year, and 10 pts, with around 16:46 of IT per game. Smith has 7 pts in 13 GP-- as an abject rookie on an injury-riddled team that's going through a death spiral. Both have almost all their points at ES, w/Smitty getting a helper on the PP (expectedly since he got more PP time than E). Nevertheless, the PP has been beyond abysmal during Smith's entire NHL career so far. He actually managed to get a point out of one when the team for the most part can't score on the PP at all.

Kindl has 11 pts in 50 NHL games, w/ 13:44 of IT/gm. He also has one helper on the PP (with :30 IT/gm on the PP).


Edit: As a rookie, Smitty's pace is 44 pts, with ~15-16 min/gm--- with the Wings in a major slump and injuries up the wazoo.
I never understood this argument.

We are talking defensemen, not forwards. Right now, Big E is better in the his own zone. Better positionally. The only thing that kills Ericsson is that he makes goofball plays once and awhile. Oh, and he makes too much money. Ericsson is also a decent puck mover and passer. Maybe not as good as Smith, but for defense in the their own zone? Right NOW? Give me Ericsson.

Smith is great puck mover and passer. See's the ice well and has great hockey IQ (to create offense). That's great and all, but if you're out of position half the time (he is out of position more often than not almost every game, but makes up for it through stick work and skating skill) as a defenseman... But why are we talking about points? Defense first and foremost, then we talk about points.

This is also why I don't think Smith will see any time in the Play-offs (unless Ericsson and Kindl get injured again...).

As for the game. I think this is a game the Wings win if Howie was in net. Conks played well, but that first goal doesn't go in if Howard is in net. But it is what it is at this point. Two teams playing defense first hockey, and the Rangers captain had to place a perfect shot off the cross-bar to beat Conklin (looked like it went right over his shoulder).

It's another loss, sure. But these are the type of loses you can't be to mad about. The Wings played well, but so did the Rangers. THey play like this against the 'canes and the Jackets.., then start to get healthy (minus Helm...dammit), I think this is the perfect time for the Wings to getting hot for a play-off run. Only question is, will Howie be ready?

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03-22-2012, 10:56 AM
  #362
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I never understood this argument.

We are talking defensemen, not forwards. Right now, Big E is better in the his own zone. Better positionally. The only thing that kills Ericsson is that he makes goofball plays once and awhile. Oh, and he makes too much money. Ericsson is also a decent puck mover and passer. Maybe not as good as Smith, but for defense in the their own zone? Right NOW? Give me Ericsson.
And I disagree with you 100%. The ONE area that E has an edge is on the PK. Smith is already ahead of him in reading and anticipating plays, which he's using to thwart opposition efforts and to drive our own offensive efforts. I am much more comfortable with him at ES. The main thing he needs to do is get his stamina up.

No way I agree that E is better positionally. That's been one of his biggest problems all along. Sorry.

Quote:
Smith is great puck mover and passer. See's the ice well and has great hockey IQ (to create offense). That's great and all, but if you're out of position half the time (he is out of position more often than not almost every game, but makes up for it through stick work and skating skill) as a defenseman... But why are we talking about points? Defense first and foremost, then we talk about points.
The hallmark of the out-of-position defenseman on the Wings was Ericsson. If he limits his movement to two strides in any direction once he's in his own zone, he has a good game. Problem is that he's always wandering off.

I think this run of injuries + slumps has made some of you guys forget what the other guys do.


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This is also why I don't think Smith will see any time in the Play-offs (unless Ericsson and Kindl get injured again...).
Experience and stamina. Had Smith been called up earlier, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. I'm ready to yank Kindl for Smitty right now. E is in for the PK and size reasons.

Re: the rest of your post.
You realize you posted in the Washington GDT?

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03-22-2012, 11:24 AM
  #363
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And I disagree with you 100%. The ONE area that E has an edge is on the PK. Smith is already ahead of him in reading and anticipating plays, which he's using to thwart opposition efforts and to drive our own offensive efforts. I am much more comfortable with him at ES. The main thing he needs to do is get his stamina up.

No way I agree that E is better positionally. That's been one of his biggest problems all along. Sorry.



The hallmark of the out-of-position defenseman on the Wings was Ericsson. If he limits his movement to two strides in any direction once he's in his own zone, he has a good game. Problem is that he's always wandering off.

I think this run of injuries + slumps has made some of you guys forget what the other guys do.




Experience and stamina. Had Smith been called up earlier, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. I'm ready to yank Kindl for Smitty right now. E is in for the PK and size reasons.

Re: the rest of your post.
You realize you posted in the Washington GDT?
Oops. heh

Agree to disagree then.

I think Ericsson is a better defenseman NOW in his own end, no contest. What makes it close it Smith's stick work and skating; which he obviously beats Ericsson in.
Ericsson is better positionally. Hell, even Janik was better positionally than Smith. It's called experience. It's not a slight towards Smith at all.

There's a reason why Smith is always rushing back...If he wasn't a good skater/good with his stick...would he look THAT great defensively? He's caught more often than not (IMO more often than the goat Ericsson, who isn't even playing right now) out of position. He fixes that, which I know he will he's too good, the kid will dominate.

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03-22-2012, 11:46 AM
  #364
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Oops. heh

Agree to disagree then.

I think Ericsson is a better defenseman NOW in his own end, no contest. What makes it close it Smith's stick work and skating; which he obviously beats Ericsson in.
Ericsson is better positionally. Hell, even Janik was better positionally than Smith. It's called experience. It's not a slight towards Smith at all.

There's a reason why Smith is always rushing back...If he wasn't a good skater/good with his stick...would he look THAT great defensively? He's caught more often than not (IMO more often than the goat Ericsson, who isn't even playing right now) out of position. He fixes that, which I know he will he's too good, the kid will dominate.
I don't see Smith making positional mistakes, or mistakes from a lack of skill, speed, skating, etc. Ericsson, Kindl and Janik, and even Q have to compensate for these things and have only the slight edge of experience in some facets of the game. None of them is as complete a package as Smitty.

I believe that the mistakes you are seeing is due to Smith stopping to move his feet. Why does he do that? It's when he gets tired. You saw a clearcut example last night when he was completely out of gas on the ice, and someone iced the puck. Babs called a timeout. THAT type of situation would result in him making the wrong decision with the puck, or just simply being unable to get to where he wants to be.

Some of us have argued for a long time that the leap from the AHL to the NHL is probably the biggest one players ever have to make. It's not just the skill and coaching levels, but the speed. You have to think faster and be faster as a player in everything you do. I do not believe that Smith benefited as much from playing in GR as KH would have us believe. He was ready for the next level last Fall. The only way you get him to make that transition to NHL play is to throw him out there (like they're doing now). There's a reason we all are seeing massive improvement from him game by game.


That said, the Wings are built up around a core group of elite players and generalists, and then some key specialists. Ericsson is going to have become a specialist first, then have to build outwards-- assuming he can. Third pairing? Sure. Above that? We don't know yet. Quincey is already a generalist, but he may have some aspects to work on the 'specialty' side of the equation. White is also more of a PP specialist, and a reasonable generalist with the right partner. Kronwall, while deemed a generalist and top defender, still is most potent on the PP, unlike say a Lidstrom who can be the best in every situation. Smith is probably the only one of the bunch after Lids and Kronner that's headed for a generalist role.

Problem being is that you only have six D that can dress for a game. Just like situations had to be created for Kronner in order for him to fully develop, the Wings are going to have to do the same for Smitty. That may mean that someone else may be better at one facet of the game, but you sacrifice that so you develop a guy who can play all facets.

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03-22-2012, 11:56 AM
  #365
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I never understood this argument.

We are talking defensemen, not forwards. Right now, Big E is better in the his own zone. Better positionally. The only thing that kills Ericsson is that he makes goofball plays once and awhile. Oh, and he makes too much money. Ericsson is also a decent puck mover and passer. Maybe not as good as Smith, but for defense in the their own zone? Right NOW? Give me Ericsson.

Smith is great puck mover and passer. See's the ice well and has great hockey IQ (to create offense). That's great and all, but if you're out of position half the time (he is out of position more often than not almost every game, but makes up for it through stick work and skating skill) as a defenseman... But why are we talking about points? Defense first and foremost, then we talk about points.

This is also why I don't think Smith will see any time in the Play-offs (unless Ericsson and Kindl get injured again...).

As for the game. I think this is a game the Wings win if Howie was in net. Conks played well, but that first goal doesn't go in if Howard is in net. But it is what it is at this point. Two teams playing defense first hockey, and the Rangers captain had to place a perfect shot off the cross-bar to beat Conklin (looked like it went right over his shoulder).

It's another loss, sure. But these are the type of loses you can't be to mad about. The Wings played well, but so did the Rangers. THey play like this against the 'canes and the Jackets.., then start to get healthy (minus Helm...dammit), I think this is the perfect time for the Wings to getting hot for a play-off run. Only question is, will Howie be ready?
Comparing Ericsson to Smith is a bit unfair, because they play much different roles and have very different skill sets. Ericsson has to position himself better because he doesn't have the recovery speed of a Smith, or the offensive skill set to step forward and contribute. That doesn't mean he is better than Smith, just that they have different playing styles. And I don't mind Smith pushing forward to help out the offense because he has the recovery speed to get back. Plenty of the good offensive defenseman do this, I watch many Penguins game and I think Letang does this all the time, and he is a damn good d-man still.

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03-22-2012, 01:02 PM
  #366
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Problem being is that you only have six D that can dress for a game. Just like situations had to be created for Kronner in order for him to fully develop, the Wings are going to have to do the same for Smitty. That may mean that someone else may be better at one facet of the game, but you sacrifice that so you develop a guy who can play all facets.
We've been running with barely three forward lines all season. Go ahead and just dress 8 D. It might be more interesting to see E and Smith take the occasional forward shift than sending Emmerton and Mursak over the boards for five minutes a night.

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03-22-2012, 01:29 PM
  #367
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We've been running with barely three forward lines all season. Go ahead and just dress 8 D. It might be more interesting to see E and Smith take the occasional forward shift than sending Emmerton and Mursak over the boards for five minutes a night.
And then maybe I'd finally get to see my dream of big E in front of the net screening the goalie!

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03-22-2012, 01:39 PM
  #368
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Ericsson's positioning still is that of someone who needs to think about what he's going to do. I guess the idea is that they hope by the time he's 30 he'll have become a natural D-man.

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03-22-2012, 01:48 PM
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And then maybe I'd finally get to see my dream of big E in front of the net screening the goalie!
meh, he'd just get confused and wander off into the corner at some point.

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03-22-2012, 01:53 PM
  #370
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meh, he'd just get confused and wander off into the corner at some point.
Give him some time at forward and he'll become the next Dustin Byfuglien.

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