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Old
03-22-2012, 11:10 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Intermim coaches don't usually get their legs cut off the way Cunneyworth's were. The guy had absolutely no chance.

Doesn't mean I think he's a great coach, but man we completely screwed him over.

His best defenseman has been a bit of a headcase. It's not like he benched Larry Robinson.

Scratching Subban was controversial but Martin did the same thing. He's a young guy who's got maturity issues. Slice up Cunneyworth all you want but that move could've been made by any number of coaches. They're trying to get a message through to PK and if he's not following along then he's going to get benched. Sometimes that's how coaches get their messages across.
Martin scratched a fresh rookie playing on his third pairing. Cunneyworth scratched his top defenseman that the entire back end leaned on. Same player but completely different situation.

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03-22-2012, 11:14 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Martin scratched a fresh rookie playing on his third pairing. Cunneyworth scratched his top defenseman that the entire back end leaned on. Same player but completely different situation.
Subban was not a third pairing Dman when he was scratched last season. He had played 25 mins the game right before he was scratched.

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03-22-2012, 11:19 AM
  #78
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I'm a habs fan because I was born in Montreal and watched their great french and english players, my heroes, play great hockey from 1968 to 1993. They were thrilling to watch and won cups, at the Forum.

Wasn't aware of the politics, sorry.

But hey, maybe that's just me.
You weren't aware of it because there was no need to have any since the french and the english DID co-exist. This year, we never had so few local players in the team. And not only that but you add an unilingual coach on top of it. With a lot of management being anglophones as well. Even when Bowman and Co were there, at least you had that representation on the ice. Now, there's no a whole lot of it.

HENCE the sudden awareness that politics plays a role.

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03-22-2012, 11:20 AM
  #79
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Enough. God.

The guy inherited a mess.
Massive injury problems.
Undermined by his own management.
Massive pressure from media.
Rookie NHL coach.

But yeah, YOU expect him to perform like Scott Bowman.

Get real.

In fact he has kept pride in the players, and said more than once that if you wear the Habs jersey, you play hard. And most guys have.

THAT was his job this year, and he's done it very well.

You really are a muppet sometimes.
I'm a muppet? Because I expect better from a coach, no matter his situation..
I'm not asking for the moon either, I don't even care if our record would stay exactly the same. So really, I have no idea what you're whining about.

You're willing to give him a pass because guys are still playing hard (you forget to mention that management shipped out the guys that were a little more difficult to keep motivated, AK-Cammy. He wasn't able to make those guys play hard, but hey, I guess that's the players fault. But, give him credit for making an exemplary player like Plek play hard. Sure. ).

All I'm bashing RC on is coaching related decisions.
Media Pressure has NOTHING to do with that.
Injuries have NOTHING to do with that.
Inheriting a ''mess'' has NOTHING to do with that.
Being undermined by management...Proof of that would be nice. Management coming out to say French is important and they'll reevaluate the situation after the season has NOTHING to do with coaching decisions during a game.

I criticize him for not instilling a system, unless you want to call ''Dump&Chase, clear the defensive zone by shooting puck out the boards, and no neutral zone counterattack strategy '' one.
I'm criticizing him for putting Gomez on the PP.
I'm criticizing him for not dismantling the first line when the rest of the forwards are useless (that 1st line was not making us win, so what's the point in keeping it together when it means losing in the end?).
I'm criticizing him for breaking up an obvious working duo, AK-Eller, to create an obvious non-working one in Gomez-AK.
I criticize him for benching Eller after he couldn't shutdown Datsyuk's line, a mission Eller shouldn't have been given in the first place.
I criticize him for benching Eller during a 3rd period + OT, and then using him as the 3rd shooter in the Shootouts.
I criticize him for his use of Campoli over guys like Weber.


Maybe upper management could force his hands in making him use players like Gomez/Campoli, but I don't buy it.
Say they did though, everybody here seem to think they also made it clear to RC that he would be let go at the end of the season, so why would he listen to them? He could tell them off and use whoever he pleases, anyways, he's gone after, so why make himself look bad? Doesn't add up.


I have sympathy for the guy, he was thrown to the wolves. I'll grant you that. But sympathy doesn't make me brush everything off. The man has done a terrible job.

I mean, when you're trying to argue that he's done a good job because guys are playing hard, it's because you have nothing else to say. And you say I have to get real? Please man, give it a rest already. The guy has done a very bad job, but hey, blame the world before him I guess, that's much more realistic.


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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Missed my point. Habs suck this year. They don't have enough good players, for many reasons. RC kept pride, that's all I expected, and he did it. What did you expect, the 70's Habs?
Right, because there's nothing between keeping the pride and the 70's Habs.
What the heck is wrong with you? Are there only extremes to you? No middle? Is asking for a structured system really too much? Jesus Christ man..


Last edited by Kriss E: 03-22-2012 at 11:35 AM.
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Old
03-22-2012, 11:20 AM
  #80
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Subban was not a third pairing Dman when he was scratched last season. He had played 25 mins the game right before he was scratched.
He was getting special teams time which can skew things but at the time of the scratch he was generally playing with Picard as a soft minutes pairing on even strength. It wasn't until Gorges was out and Subban played with Gill that he was really relied upon to carry the mail at evens. Which was why they were able to even consider swapping him and Weber.

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03-22-2012, 11:34 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Enough. God.

The guy inherited a mess.
Massive injury problems.
Undermined by his own management.
Massive pressure from media.
Rookie NHL coach.

But yeah, YOU expect him to perform like Scott Bowman.

Get real.

In fact he has kept pride in the players, and said more than once that if you wear the Habs jersey, you play hard. And most guys have.

THAT was his job this year, and he's done it very well.

You really are a muppet sometimes.
Hmmm, I thought that, when you fire a coach and find someone else to coach your team, it's because you think that someone can make your team better, now. Or you don't fire the coach in the first place and let him finish the season.

Considering that's a given, I can't understand how you can come to the conclusion that Cunneyworth didn't fail !

Sure, nobody helped him and that was to be expected (Jacques Martin is a proven OK/good coach in the NHL while Cunneyworth is a rookie coach with an unimpressive track record), but he still failed.

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03-22-2012, 11:44 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That's ********.

We see interim coaches everywhere in sports, quite often they end up as the full time coach after doing well.

It's very easy to discipline guys at this level, you cut their ice time or take them out of the lineup. Players at this level want to play and get their ice time.
Problem is that it is pretty well known he is not coming back, the players know it, the fans know it and the media knows it. The Molson and Gauthier comments said as much. He was not going to be made the full time coach and the fact that his bosses pretty much confirmed this early on in his tenure.

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03-22-2012, 11:52 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
Problem is that it is pretty well known he is not coming back, the players know it, the fans know it and the media knows it. The Molson and Gauthier comments said as much. He was not going to be made the full time coach and the fact that his bosses pretty much confirmed this early on in his tenure.
If Cunneyworth had gotten the Habs on a tear the 50 games of the year. 30-13-7 and finished with 100 points, you can bet your bottom dollar he would ahve been hired full time and the laguage thing would have been dealt with by saying he was going to learn french after the season.

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03-22-2012, 11:57 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
Problem is that it is pretty well known he is not coming back, the players know it, the fans know it and the media knows it. The Molson and Gauthier comments said as much. He was not going to be made the full time coach and the fact that his bosses pretty much confirmed this early on in his tenure.
That's simply not true.
Matter of fact, when Gauthier announced him as an interim, he specifically said ''languages are made to be learned''.
Then the big political backlash happened, the manifestations, and all that crappy hoopla.
But even after that, they never actually said ''RC will not be back''. They apologized to all that were offended, and said language will be an important criteria when they ''reevaluate'' the coaching position in the summer.
If RC had brought this team to a PO birth, I'd bet anything he'd be rehired.

Management didn't help him, but they didn't shoot him down either. Let's stop pretending like the guy never stood a chance, that's just false.

And we often hear fans say players should earn more playing time. Well, as an interim coach, you're in the same position. Earn your stripes, force management in a tough spot, learn french, make them hire you as the official coach.
RC didn't do any of that.

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03-22-2012, 12:17 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
That's simply not true.
Matter of fact, when Gauthier announced him as an interim, he specifically said ''languages are made to be learned''.
Then the big political backlash happened, the manifestations, and all that crappy hoopla.
But even after that, they never actually said ''RC will not be back''. They apologized to all that were offended, and said language will be an important criteria when they ''reevaluate'' the coaching position in the summer.
If RC had brought this team to a PO birth, I'd bet anything he'd be rehired.

Management didn't help him, but they didn't shoot him down either. Let's stop pretending like the guy never stood a chance, that's just false.

And we often hear fans say players should earn more playing time. Well, as an interim coach, you're in the same position. Earn your stripes, force management in a tough spot, learn french, make them hire you as the official coach.
RC didn't do any of that.
Yes they did say he will not be back. Molson specifically said in the public letter that the next coach will have to speak both languages, blah blah.

And no he shouldn't be forced to learn French to keep his job. Let's not get into that debate either.

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03-22-2012, 01:13 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That's ********.

We see interim coaches everywhere in sports, quite often they end up as the full time coach after doing well.

It's very easy to discipline guys at this level, you cut their ice time or take them out of the lineup. Players at this level want to play and get their ice time.
We dont have the owner doing press releases the day after other interim coaches are hired like Molsons with the next coach will be bilingual line.

We dont have GMs apologizing for hiring the guy.

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03-22-2012, 01:45 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Martin scratched a fresh rookie playing on his third pairing. Cunneyworth scratched his top defenseman that the entire back end leaned on. Same player but completely different situation.
In both cases it's a young player being disciplined by a coach. It's the same thing.

Not saying it's right or that I think he shouldv'e been benched but it is the same thing. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes but even based on what we have seen (slew foot, several fights with teammates, dumb penalties, risky plays on the ice) it's pretty evident that he's got some growing up to do. If you tell a guy to do something and he doesn't do it, you've got to discipline him. RC had just come on and had the 'interim' label slapped on him. Maybe PK was laughing him off and maybe he felt like he had to send a message... who knows?

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03-22-2012, 01:50 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Habsolument90 View Post
Yes they did say he will not be back. Molson specifically said in the public letter that the next coach will have to speak both languages, blah blah.

And no he shouldn't be forced to learn French to keep his job. Let's not get into that debate either.
And Cunneyworth is so stupid that they couldn't teach him french if he was doing a great job coaching?

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03-22-2012, 02:07 PM
  #89
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Cunneyworth has been doing a great job. The team he has sucks. He's been the one to champion what we've been saying for years - we need to be tougher and play more physical. It's not his fault that this team doesn't have the necessary pieces. He's paid his dues in the AHL for years. He deserves to stay.

Too bad hockey is about politics *sarcasm*

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03-22-2012, 02:54 PM
  #90
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Cunneyworth has been doing a great job. The team he has sucks. He's been the one to champion what we've been saying for years - we need to be tougher and play more physical.
Being a champion for commonplace cliches does not make him a good coach, especially since it's not clear at all that the team needed to "be tougher and play more physical", assuming the goal is to win hockey games... or that the Habs aren't being "more physical" simply because they never have the puck and are always chasing and trying to hit a guy on the other team who has it.

In what way, then, has Cunneyworth "done a great job" -- remembering that under him the team has been one of the worst in the NHL, and that the talent level of the team when he inherited it in no way justified such a result ?

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03-22-2012, 02:57 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Cunneyworth has been doing a great job. The team he has sucks. He's been the one to champion what we've been saying for years - we need to be tougher and play more physical. It's not his fault that this team doesn't have the necessary pieces. He's paid his dues in the AHL for years. He deserves to stay.

Too bad hockey is about politics *sarcasm*
If Cunneyworth is doing a great job them Martin must be up there with Scotty Bowman because the team had a much better record(13-12-7, 85 point pace vs 15-21-6, 70 point pace) with him.

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03-22-2012, 03:04 PM
  #92
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If Cunneyworth is doing a great job them Martin must be up there with Scotty Bowman because the team had a much better record(13-12-7, 85 point pace vs 15-21-6, 70 point pace) with him.
RC took over and there was an immediate 6 losses in 7 games. Horrific but given what the club did to him it was expected.

Apart from that, the club has been right in line with where Martin had them. There's not that much of a difference here.

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03-22-2012, 03:06 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Habsolument90 View Post
Yes they did say he will not be back. Molson specifically said in the public letter that the next coach will have to speak both languages, blah blah.

And no he shouldn't be forced to learn French to keep his job. Let's not get into that debate either.
I fail to see how this officially means bye bye RC.
The guy just has to learn French. If he doesn't want to do that, well then that's his own decision.

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03-22-2012, 03:57 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
RC took over and there was an immediate 6 losses in 7 games. Horrific but given what the club did to him it was expected.

Apart from that, the club has been right in line with where Martin had them. There's not that much of a difference here.
Why was it expected?

13-12-7 vs 15-21-6 is a pretty big difference in my book. It's the difference from being in striking range of 7th and 8th to being 15th. If the goal was to suck to a lottery pick then Randy is a great coach, in terms of winning more games he's been a big failure.

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03-22-2012, 04:01 PM
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Since Cunneyworth seems to be the topic... from the man himself, his thoughts on why the Sabres hemmed the Sabres in:

“They hemmed us in, but we have to be tougher in our own end and there’s a skill in chipping the puck out of the zone,” Cunneyworth said. “A lot of times, we shooting it too hard and we iced the puck.”

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...#ixzz1psh0dahN

Well, at least now we know that it's not just an impression that the Habs are endlessly and predictably chipping it out rather than trying to transition -- it's intentional strategy.

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03-22-2012, 04:02 PM
  #96
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Why was it expected?
Is this a serious question?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
13-12-7 vs 15-21-6 is a pretty big difference in my book. It's the difference from being in striking range of 7th and 8th to being 15th. If the goal was to suck to a lottery pick then Randy is a great coach, in terms of winning more games he's been a big failure.
Might as well get the lottery pick, we weren't making the playoffs anyway.

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03-22-2012, 04:28 PM
  #97
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Is this a serious question?

Might as well get the lottery pick, we weren't making the playoffs anyway.
Why would a team that Martin had 13-12-7 with a pile of injuries be expected to be much worse with Cunneyworth? That makes no sense whatsoever.

We kept hearing on here for 2 years that JM was a terrible coach yet the minute he gets fired the team immediately gets a lot worse.

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03-22-2012, 04:34 PM
  #98
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Why would a team that Martin had 13-12-7 with a pile of injuries be expected to be much worse with Cunneyworth? That makes no sense whatsoever.

We kept hearing on here for 2 years that JM was a terrible coach yet the minute he gets fired the team immediately gets a lot worse.
Well Martin could have been bad while RC could be worst? Personnally, I don't think Martin was awful, but I don't believe how he played the youngsters and gave too much confidence to guys who didn't deserve it. But I don't believe he was that great either. Clearly, RC is either much worst, way less prepared or just......a rookie. While the other guy has 1000 games of experience. Maybe at one point that Martin, with his ton of experience should have done more while you have to expect a rookie to not do as good and especially when put in the situation he was in.

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03-22-2012, 04:34 PM
  #99
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Why would a team that Martin had 13-12-7 with a pile of injuries be expected to be much worse with Cunneyworth? That makes no sense whatsoever.
So Cunneyworth had no injuries to deal with himself? Why do you make that excuse for one but not the other?
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We kept hearing on here for 2 years that JM was a terrible coach yet the minute he gets fired the team immediately gets a lot worse.
JM average 82 game season points come out to 90. That's not good.

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03-22-2012, 04:42 PM
  #100
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Funny thing is that Campoli will still get PP time over Emelin

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