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Old
03-21-2012, 07:50 PM
  #151
spidergoalie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post

We deserve a championship team. Absolutely nothing can dispel that. We're paying millions upon millions to MLSE and they aren't being assertive nor is Burke and just doing what needs to be done.
Fans of every team in professional sports pay to watch their team play and pay the salaries of the players coaches and management.
Do they all "deserve" a championship team as well?

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03-21-2012, 07:57 PM
  #152
egd27
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Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
Ok, whatever. Can't change people's opinions I guess.

Enjoy the crappy product. I'll go **** off to Ottawa or something.
No disrespect intended, but that's what you should do. If you don't like a restaurant, would you keep going back? No, you'd find one you do like.

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03-21-2012, 08:03 PM
  #153
Duffman955
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Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
The Hypocrisy

I've noticed recently that the majority of the fanbase are blatant hypocrites.

I say this because the MLSE fanbase (from here on, referred to as 'we', because I am apart of all of you) call out the athletes-the competitors- for savagely crumbling when the going gets tough...

Yet we, as observers, cannot even bear to watch it without breaking down into a giant pile full of sadistic turmoil. We break apart and start bickering with each other, and lose both our drive and unity as a fanbase. Twist it into something harmful. We fracture like a window into broken glass.

Gather our skirts and take the hits like men

All the commentary--the media--the chants--the I-know-better-improvement rants; they have all only built up our sense of entitlement and suffocated both our team's confidence and drive.

In this atmosphere, we know for certain the media and commentary gets back to the players-- in one form or another. We're doing damage in our collapse as a fanbase. We have a habit to complain and hate for better or worse. Toughen up as fans, and try to cheer for better or worse.

If we want the team, the organization, to straighten their backs and fight with a fire, maybe we should light that fire under them--NO! not with our critic-hate-ridden complaints. With fiery support and the will to push the team forward.

How about when our champ is knocked down onto the mat, we not heckle and mock them for falling. We cheer and support them, encouraging them to stand back up and embolden their hearts.

A million people baying for blood can shrink you. A million people calling out support can motivate you to win.

That's what we want, right?

To win.
This should be said to the players on the ice. They play like 5 year old girls.

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Old
03-21-2012, 08:51 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
No disrespect intended, but that's what you should do. If you don't like a restaurant, would you keep going back? No, you'd find one you do like.
Nope, I'm a leaf fan for life. Just completely against the direction they are headed right now.

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03-21-2012, 09:23 PM
  #155
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With all due respect and admiration for the admins, I think it is is quite telling that while it is permitted to have several concurrent threads criticizing a specific player or member of the organization from every perspective and point of view imagineable, a couple guys show a little enthusiasm and support, dare I say team spirit, during dark times, and the thread gets closed. I admire both OP's for reminding us that we re fans first and foremost, whether we feel the team is best served by loading up on draft picks or building a winner through other means. Way to go guys....

GO LEAFS...

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Old
03-21-2012, 09:26 PM
  #156
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I understand how fans are frustrated and I don't care to tell fans how they should and shouldn't react. It's not my money they're spending so I don't have any right to be upset about how they vocally express their frustrations. However, I do personally align with your perspective on things. I've never booed any team I support, in any sport no matter how bad they've been or how bad they've played. When fans boo, I see that as rubbing salt in a wound and for a team that is losing mainly because they have zero confidence in themselves, I don't think booing is going to do anything to improve their mental state. I think it's only going to achieve the opposite.

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Old
03-21-2012, 09:33 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
No disrespect intended, but that's what you should do. If you don't like a restaurant, would you keep going back? No, you'd find one you do like.
No the first thing you do is point out what you would like changed in the meal they provide you, if they tell you to pound salt, then you look for a new place to eat.

If they value your business they will make the subtle change to yourmeal.

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03-21-2012, 09:40 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
No the first thing you do is point out what you would like changed in the meal they provide you, if they tell you to pound salt, then you look for a new place to eat.

If they value your business they will make the subtle change to yourmeal.
So to translate that into Leafs situation, the answer is for MLSE, Burke, Carlyle and the players to take their instructions from the millions of fans that make up Leafs Nation? I know that may not be what you mean in the literal sense but your rebuttal doesn't work when you apply it to the actual situation.

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03-21-2012, 09:42 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
I understand how fans are frustrated and I don't care to tell fans how they should and shouldn't react. It's not my money they're spending so I don't have any right to be upset about how they vocally express their frustrations. However, I do personally align with your perspective on things. I've never booed any team I support, in any sport no matter how bad they've been or how bad they've played. When fans boo, I see that as rubbing salt in a wound and for a team that is losing mainly because they have zero confidence in themselves, I don't think booing is going to do anything to improve their mental state. I think it's only going to achieve the opposite.
You would rather the players, coach, GM and ownership see a form of apathy toward 40 + years of no cup final hockey? 8 years of not PO games,? all the while paying the highest average tickets prices in the history of the NHL?

Let me tell you what we should be worried about seeing and that is no reaction to utter failure.

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03-21-2012, 09:42 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Cappayne View Post
I see the last 20 games as the "tipping point" of a lot of moves that were questionable. But after the Leafs all but locked up a playoff spot this season, fans were able to say, "The Kessel trade clearly wasn't great, but at least this team finally gets some playoff hockey," etc. But now that the team plummeted to the ground, Burke clearly has not achieved anything. He promised 4 years, the fans gave him 4 years, and here he is at the end of year 4, and with failure. So it makes sense that Burke is bashed now.
I certainly agree with you. However, I just can't see anyone foreseeing this. It's like something out of the ordinary. We haven't had this bad of a slide in 15 years. Some of it is Burke's fault but to get rid of him is way to far ahead.

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03-21-2012, 09:46 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Pyromaniac3 View Post
I certainly agree with you. However, I just can't see anyone foreseeing this. It's like something out of the ordinary. We haven't had this bad of a slide in 15 years. Some of it is Burke's fault but to get rid of him is way to far ahead.
You see that is where you are fooling yourself.

You see this as a slid because we started hot, so it should not /could not happen.

Yet last year we started off horribly and finished hot, not much difference here, it still was a bad season over a FULL 82 game sched.

We just got our hopes up from the start, where last year so much hope was dashed by the time they got hot.

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Old
03-21-2012, 09:49 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
The easy answer to this is:

Why the **** should we?

We pay these people our hard earned salaries. Each player, coach, GM and assitant GM makes near million or millions. They deserve no pity because "oh they couldn't put it together."

Toronto fans have every right to be angry. This team was being torn down and everyone was ready to accept it, Burke comes in and then generalizes the fanbase saying that they don't like boring hockey (But the Pat Burns era is put on a pedestal by Leaf fans) that we don't need a boring traditional rebuild (but we all wanted it) and that in 3 years he could turn the team into a playoff contender.

He failed, the owners failed, the players failed. The owners should have played a bigger role, either have Tenanbaum or someone be the head of that conglomerate and tell Burke what they expect. This is a very loud fanbase that demands a lot, having that one voice where it matters needed to happen and it didn't.

Ontop of that people are right to start calling out Burke. It's been 4 years, probablly going to be 5 years under him with no elite talent outside Kessel with no visible outlook of this team. He isn't going to trade Kessel or do what he needs to shift this roster into what it must be to get the team on the right path. So yeah fans should heckle him.

Players don't deserve any sympathy either. Boo them, heckle them, cheer them who cares? They are being supported, as well as much of the league, by Toronto Maple Leaf fan's dollars. We deserve a championship team. Absolutely nothing can dispel that. We're paying millions upon millions to MLSE and they aren't being assertive nor is Burke and just doing what needs to be done. It's bad business but ultimately, and I know I'm turning into that fan, they aren't willing to upset anything becuase they know fans will keep coming. That pressure in wanting to succeed or pride for your local team isn't present. You don't get that when you're owned by corporations, this isn't like Mark Cuban or Eugene Melnyk coming out and bragging about their team, wanting to get better. They want to appease Leaf fans, not see their product do great. And that's why we're here today. Because no one is jumping ship, no one is stopping themselves from going to the games or buying the LeafsTV packages or new jerseys so MLSE can sit back and say "yeah Burke we believe in you keep going." And the only way its going to get across is from unbelievable pressure from fans or media. But coordination in either A) staying away from Leaf games and devoiding MLSE of your money or B) Chanting "Good Job Burkie" at the ACC probably won't happen.



Deserve? cool...you got one in the making down at Ricoh. they DESRVE the support and encouragement of Toronto's enlightened, sophisticated fan base. Gonna make it out to a game? maybe buy a jersey? good stuff...

And for the record, the people spending millions are the season ticket holders, and the corporations shelling out in sponsorships and renting suites and boxes. They, apparently demand an exciting brand of hockey with a name player on the roster. That was Burkes mandate. Appease the key customer, not john q public who might buy a pair of scalps once or twice a year. He acquired a 35 goal guy barely old enough to buy a round when he arrived, and added some muscle and grit to make it exciting. He's following the blueprint. Its taking longer than expected, but you don't change anything by pissing and moaning.

Heres an experiment: got a wife? girlfriend? cool... berate her every day, call your friends and get them to berate her as well. Hell, go on a local radio talk show and berate her. Write a weekly blog about everything you don't like about her, and if anyone says anything nice about her, tell them they're an idiot... Get back to us in a month... let us know how its going...and if its indeed a wife, hire a divorce lawyer.


No disrespect intended here; just making the point. Entitlement and negativity are the antithesis of progress...sort of a universal law...

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Old
03-21-2012, 10:13 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
You would rather the players, coach, GM and ownership see a form of apathy toward 40 + years of no cup final hockey? 8 years of not PO games,? all the while paying the highest average tickets prices in the history of the NHL?

Let me tell you what we should be worried about seeing and that is no reaction to utter failure.
How many Leafs games do you attend each year? Don't bring up ticket prices because you don't go to 41 home games a year and buy 19,000+ tickets a game so you really don't need to concern yourself with prices. When you decide to cover the costs for my entertainment and everyone else who attends Leafs games, maybe then you can condescendingly lecture me and the rest on how we should enjoy the activities we pay to see. I respect someone's freedom to boo and just because I don't do the same doesn't mean I judge them for it. So you don't like that people aren't all mindless sheep that will do something because everyone else is? Well tough luck for you.

I don't feel any obligation to do something that is unnatural and uncomfortable to me. That isn't how I am and it doesn't make me any less of a fan or care any less about wanting to see the team win. If holding protests outside of the ACC and mercilessly booing players on home ice is the extent you're willing to go as a fan, then that's fine but that's not me.

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03-21-2012, 10:16 PM
  #164
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I feel like if you want to stop cheering for the team, fine. Don't go to a game, don't support them. It's your choice.

But there's way too much negative hate going on.

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03-21-2012, 10:18 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spidergoalie View Post
Fans of every team in professional sports pay to watch their team play and pay the salaries of the players coaches and management.
Do they all "deserve" a championship team as well?
We pay a hell of a lot more than anyone else.

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03-21-2012, 10:42 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Duffman955 View Post
We pay a hell of a lot more than anyone else.
For, really, nothing. We haven't had a truly competitive team in what, close to a decade?

Speculating here, but I would assume markets such as NYR, Detroit, and Montreal are right up there in ticket prices with us. All three of those teams have won Cups in the last 20 years. All three make the playoffs with pretty good regularity. Specifically this year, two of those teams have a legitimate shot at the Cup(then again when doesn't Detroit).

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03-21-2012, 10:45 PM
  #167
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I hope the leafs loose every single game of the season !!!

I am cognizant that a top draft pick can't guarantee future success -- but it can't hurt.

Also, you can always move a high draft player for a current player in a package.

Therefore, a top three draft pick is an asset, and the only way you can acquire such a player is if we finish at the bottom of the East.

Fans have to be cerebral -- there are lot of naive fans on this board, I for one cheer when the Leafs loose !!!!

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Old
03-21-2012, 10:54 PM
  #168
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too much self-righteousness and stupidity in one thread (brought to you almost exclusively by ometheus)

people shouldn't complain even though they bought the tickets? excuse me? there is an expectation that comes with paying money to a hockey club. At the very least, you expect to be entertained. Usually, that means being competitive or seeing effort on the ice. The team hasn't been competitive for the past 8 years, despite all the false promises foisted on us by management. And if one takes a sober look at the squad, our cap situation and our prospect situation, it will be at least a couple of years until we squeak into the playoffs, let alone be competitive in them.

The fact is, Burke gave us this team promising it will make the playoffs, almost every single year he's been there. They are not, they are collapsing and failing spectacularly. Blindly cheering and supporting them is not going to help. It hasn't in the past, why would it help now? Smarter men have said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

The fans have every right to let this team know it's terrible. If the players can't take the pressure, I'd argue they don't have the mental capacity to play in the NHL and don't deserve their multimillion dollar paycheques. I'd want them gone, if that's the case. If they can't take the heat now, how will they ever take the pressure of the playoffs?

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03-21-2012, 11:20 PM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
This thread is not about Burke. Boo and heckle HIM all you want. It's the players that are battling for us, that we boo and tear down, that I'm talking about.
my post was directed straight at this quote from your original post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
Yet we, as observers, cannot even bear to watch it without breaking down into a giant pile full of sadistic turmoil. We break apart and start bickering with each other, and lose both our drive and unity as a fanbase. Twist it into something harmful. We fracture like a window into broken glass.
the whole idea that you believe we sit on here and bicker with each other. what you call bickering I call debating which there's nothing wrong with. I would hate it if everyone was on the same page it would be way to boring so imo you shouldn't even discuss what happens in this forum because if there wasn't differing opinions there would be no HFBoards.

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Old
03-22-2012, 12:18 AM
  #170
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03-22-2012, 07:24 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
the whole idea that you believe we sit on here and bicker with each other. what you call bickering I call debating which there's nothing wrong with. I would hate it if everyone was on the same page it would be way to boring so imo you shouldn't even discuss what happens in this forum because if there wasn't differing opinions there would be no HFBoards.
i thought the same thing. in a nutshell, the op seems to beileve this place should be shut down. if not shut down, what should all the posts consist of? nothing other than "go leafs go!"?

we've seen this song a dance before, its just another attempt to deflect attention away from the team and away from where the real blame lies.

the fans pay. the players, coaches, gms, etc. get paid. the onus to improve falls on the latter. the fans have no obligation whatsoever.

lets talk about the team, and lets stop deflecting blame and telling people how they "should" act.

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03-22-2012, 07:40 AM
  #172
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[QUOTE=-DeMo-;46506317]my post was directed straight at this quote from your original post



the whole idea that you believe we sit on here and bicker with each other. what you call bickering I call debating which there's nothing wrong with. I would hate it if everyone was on the same page it would be way to boring so imo you shouldn't even discuss what happens in this forum because if there wasn't differing opinions there would be no HFBoards.[/QUOTE

There are varying degrees in the quality of what you call a debate. When the premise is framed almost solely around sarcasm and poorly constructed rhetoric and vitriol as opposed to sound reasoning it is easy to dismiss as more of the same old crap. The minute someone stoops to "Burke is a moron", they lose. Morons don't have Harvard degrees, win Stanley cups, or sustain lifelong executive level careers.

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03-22-2012, 12:39 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Duffman955 View Post
We pay a hell of a lot more than anyone else.
That's a choice each person makes. No one is being forced to pay anything.

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