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The defence since Markov's return

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Old
03-22-2012, 12:01 PM
  #26
LyleOdelein
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Even though some players like Gorges and Subban have been decent, the D-corps as a whole has been costing the team all year. On top of that they don't get a ton of goal support, let alone sustained offensive zone pressure from the forwards.

Markov has played 12 games in since the end of the 09-10 season. Expecting him to step in at this point in the season and immediately fix every problem on a relatively porous defense was unrealistic.

At this point, the main hope is that he stays healthy and starts to shake off the rust.

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03-22-2012, 12:05 PM
  #27
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm not saying he can't. But... he doesn't look good.
Don't you think it's a little bit early to pass judgment? He's played what? 5-6 games?
Guy has barely played any hockey in 2 years? Were you expecting him to be getting his strides back this quickly?

I thought a realistic time frame before really judging him was a full season, not a handful of games...

To be honest, I'm actually impressed with Markov.

I've been injured myself from the sport I practice. Back problems, broken collarbone, just being out a month take a big toll on your body and sets you back a lot. So, 2years off? I'm not surprised Markov is lost. It was expected.
Be patient man, he'll improve again as long as he stays healthy, you'll see.

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03-22-2012, 12:14 PM
  #28
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i'm not even gonna think about judging Markov's performance until ~20 games into next season...the guy hasn't played for 2 years and is coming back late in the season to a bottom-place team that has been decimated by injuries, bad luck, and just plain terrible play all season.

also keep in mind this team is pretty close to 100% from the one we had last time Markov was a regular, give him time to get situated with the new players, coaches, etc...he's from the Kovy/Koivu/Komi/Higgins era, only played half a season in 09-10 with some of our newer guys

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03-22-2012, 12:20 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm not saying he can't. But... he doesn't look good.
He looks good with the puck on his stick and skating forward. His passes are still sublime and he sees the ice as good as ever, knows when to jump in the play.

Without the puck his reactions and change of directions are slow..not a big shock having barely played the last 2 years and jumping in with everybody else in midseason shape.

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03-22-2012, 12:29 PM
  #30
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>5 games
>Good sample size

Pick one.

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03-22-2012, 12:32 PM
  #31
Pierre Dagenais
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Markov is still an asset when playing but no longer the solution. Fans need to accept reality. He is no longer the player he once was. Period.

He will help our PP, and will marginally improve our 5 on 5. Don't expect him to transform it.

He simply will never regain the speed required to be like old-self and will always remain a question mark health-wise.

The sooner our GM (or next GM) realize this, the better we will be prepared moving forward.

As Kriss said - D has been bad all year - the only difference is that you probably had high expectations, thus reality looks more grim than it really is.
Hey man weren't you supposed to delete your account after we lost that one game?

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03-22-2012, 12:39 PM
  #32
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Markov's return will drop us in the standings, which is great. And it will get him a taste so he'll be ready next year. Also great.

Markov's game is mainly cerebral. His game will not decline, like Lidstrom's has not declined. He just needs to put some time in to get his feet wet in the NHL again, then have another summer to get his body ready and a training camp and he'll be ready to go. He still has years to play, and the years he's had off will do his body good. I don't think he's playing with 100% effort right now. I would hope he just coasts out there. I don't want to see him mix it up or anything stupid like that. Just get the feet wet - that's ALL.

We are not nearly the same team without him and there is no replacement in sight. These kinds of players don't grow on trees. He makes everyone better. Possibly Gauthier's best move was locking him up longterm.

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03-22-2012, 12:40 PM
  #33
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When you have Campoli/Weber playing over 18 minutes a game that'll make your defense look a whole lot worse... add Diaz back (who was solid for his first year in the league) and get a gritty guy in the offseason like a Barrett Jackman or someone similar and the defense looks a lot better.

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03-22-2012, 12:49 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Pernell Karl View Post
When you have Campoli/Weber playing over 18 minutes a game that'll make your defense look a whole lot worse... add Diaz back (who was solid for his first year in the league) and get a gritty guy in the offseason like a Barrett Jackman or someone similar and the defense looks a lot better.
It's not so much the guys they have as having a bunch of puck movers playing together, they need to add a physical stay at home type, plus if Markov is 80 or 90% of what he once was he'll add another guy above average defensively.

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03-22-2012, 01:06 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
Markov's return will drop us in the standings, which is great. And it will get him a taste so he'll be ready next year. Also great.

Markov's game is mainly cerebral. His game will not decline, like Lidstrom's has not declined. He just needs to put some time in to get his feet wet in the NHL again, then have another summer to get his body ready and a training camp and he'll be ready to go. He still has years to play, and the years he's had off will do his body good. I don't think he's playing with 100% effort right now. I would hope he just coasts out there. I don't want to see him mix it up or anything stupid like that. Just get the feet wet - that's ALL.

We are not nearly the same team without him and there is no replacement in sight. These kinds of players don't grow on trees. He makes everyone better. Possibly Gauthier's best move was locking him up longterm.
Funny how 5 games ago markov was gauthiers biggest disaster.

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03-22-2012, 01:20 PM
  #36
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Bruins fans were too dumb to participate in this poll i guess?
The pollsters didn't have time to get an artist to draw the pictures.

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03-22-2012, 01:29 PM
  #37
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Don't you think it's a little bit early to pass judgment? He's played what? 5-6 games?
Guy has barely played any hockey in 2 years? Were you expecting him to be getting his strides back this quickly?

I thought a realistic time frame before really judging him was a full season, not a handful of games...

To be honest, I'm actually impressed with Markov.

I've been injured myself from the sport I practice. Back problems, broken collarbone, just being out a month take a big toll on your body and sets you back a lot. So, 2years off? I'm not surprised Markov is lost. It was expected.
Be patient man, he'll improve again as long as he stays healthy, you'll see.
I don't think it's too early to pass judgement on how he's played, no. As I said, he could turn it around but he hasn't looked good in my eyes anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He looks good with the puck on his stick and skating forward. His passes are still sublime and he sees the ice as good as ever, knows when to jump in the play.

Without the puck his reactions and change of directions are slow..not a big shock having barely played the last 2 years and jumping in with everybody else in midseason shape.
I don't think his skating looks good. The pass to MaxPac in his first game back was absolutely unreal but I haven't seen too much in his game to make me think that he looks good.

Hopefully he turns it around but man, he looks a little bit lost out there.

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03-22-2012, 01:44 PM
  #38
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Anyone who expected Markov to come back and have an instant impact was dreaming. It will take till then end of the season to assess him, and even then, I'm sure he has lost a lot of muscle, fitness, and head space in the last year. He might bounce back, but it won't be this season. We might see glimpsed this season.

However, I agree, he has looked rusty. Like a player that hasn't played much in the last two years!

It is pretty obvious we need another top 4 D, and a few other parts. If we aren't active on the free agent market this summer, we will have another rough year. There seems to be no relief in sight from the farm ... even if we end up with a top 3 choice.

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03-22-2012, 01:46 PM
  #39
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't think it's too early to pass judgement on how he's played, no. As I said, he could turn it around but he hasn't looked good in my eyes anyway.

I don't think his skating looks good. The pass to MaxPac in his first game back was absolutely unreal but I haven't seen too much in his game to make me think that he looks good.

Hopefully he turns it around but man, he looks a little bit lost out there.
Agility wise he is still a half second slow, part of that is his brain processing opposing players' movement, but skating forward he looks fine.

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03-22-2012, 01:47 PM
  #40
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Agility wise he is still a half second slow, part of that is his brain processing opposing players' movement, but skating forward he looks fine.
If you say so...

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Old
03-22-2012, 01:58 PM
  #41
OneSharpMarble
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't think it's too early to pass judgement on how he's played, no. As I said, he could turn it around but he hasn't looked good in my eyes anyway.

I don't think his skating looks good. The pass to MaxPac in his first game back was absolutely unreal but I haven't seen too much in his game to make me think that he looks good.

Hopefully he turns it around but man, he looks a little bit lost out there.
Lets waive him. If he isnt leading the league after 5 games back he obviously never will.

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Old
03-22-2012, 02:09 PM
  #42
Lafleurs Guy
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Lets waive him. If he isnt leading the league after 5 games back he obviously never will.
Nah... let's pretend that everything's fine and not plan for the worst. That's the PG way. Boy does Markov ever look awesome out there btw, it's like he hasn't skipped a beat.

Is that better?

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03-22-2012, 02:21 PM
  #43
Slew Foots
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Markov is a BAWSS.

For a guy who hasn't played in 2 years, I think he's looked pretty good. He's obviously still got quite a bit of rust to shake off. If he can manage to stay healthy next year, I'm fairly optimistic that we'll see him revert to his old Norris-like self.

It's a win-win situation right now. Markov is using these games to shake off some rust and gain some confidence in his knee for next season. Him being a little rusty right now is preventing him from playing up to his Norris-like standards, which means he is not impeding operation tank in any way.

The next step is to win the lottery, and have Markov's young Russian comrade Yakupov join the Habs' Russian contingent.

SEE YOU NEXT TIME!!!

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Old
03-22-2012, 02:47 PM
  #44
The Doors
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Subban - Gorges
Markov - Emelin
UFA Psycho Beast - Diaz

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Old
03-22-2012, 02:49 PM
  #45
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Or maybe Markov-Diaz and let Emelin go to the leftside.

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Old
03-22-2012, 02:57 PM
  #46
David Thicke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He looks good with the puck on his stick and skating forward. His passes are still sublime and he sees the ice as good as ever, knows when to jump in the play.

Without the puck his reactions and change of directions are slow..not a big shock having barely played the last 2 years and jumping in with everybody else in midseason shape.
I agree with you. Markov coming back now after missing so much time in the last two years, is like you pulling out of your driveway onto the highway where everyone is going 100 km/h. He sees the play well and at the right speed but he's just not yet fully confident to push the knee when changing directions. Markov was never the fastest player but certain one of the smartest with the puck and positioning himself correctly to defend. He just can't reaction the way he wants yet. His coming back now was to test the knee's strength and to see if can it hold up to the stress of NHL play. He will be much better after a full summer of training and skating every day where he can start next season at the same pace as everyone else.

Markov brings more to the team with his patience and quick strike passing skills with the puck. He will only help the development of the young d-men like Diaz, Emelin and especially PK who is seeing how and why you need to move the puck quickly up the ice. Markov gives the team more open ice to exit their zone when he up to speed because the opposition has to respect his abilities to hit the long tape to tape stretch pass and this forces the other teams d-men to back out in coverage while unable to pinch or hold the blueline. It has been one of major issues for the Habs over the last couple of seasons, they have had a lot of trouble getting out of their own zone.

The Habs' defensemen prospects are still a few years away from playing full time in the NHL but will bring the right toughness, grit and nastiness to make it more difficult to play in the Habs' defensive zone or in front of their net. In the mean time, management needs to address these issues on the backend to bridge the time to develop the prospects properly and at the right pace not hurrying them. It takes much longer to develop defensemen and goalies than it is for the forwards. If the team can get out of it own zone more easily then you can be more aggressive on the offensive attack. The Habs offensive troubles are a whole other problem for another thread some day.

We can only look forward to seeing the changes over the summer to the team's roster, the development of the prospects, the new players drafted and the hope of a better season next year. It is hard to believe that Molson will not make changes to the management team after what has been an unexceptable season but then Ottawa didn't fire Bryan Murray and look how that has turned out of them. I am not say that Gauthier is anything like Murray.

The new GM will have to name his own head coach, who will then decide his own assistants. We, as fans will have to have a lot of patience with the younger players as they learn from their mistakes and growing pains like Price and PK have. A turn around of this team isn't just a quick fix but there's always next year! Oh god, I am starting to sound like a Leafs fan already! Here's to a better 2012-13 season.

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Old
03-22-2012, 03:19 PM
  #47
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't think it's too early to pass judgement on how he's played, no. As I said, he could turn it around but he hasn't looked good in my eyes anyway.
My point is simply that there is no conclusion to be drawn here.
Did you expect him to be better than what he has shown in his first 5games back in almost 2years of hockey?
He is exactly where I thought he'd be. Still great vision, still has the offensive skills, skating I weak and positioning needs work. That's exactly where I thought he'd be.

Will he improve? If he stays healthy, I don't see why not.

The question remains will he stay healthy? We can't answer that. And if it wasn't predictable enough earlier this year, it should certainly be next season. We have to plan as if he will miss time. We need to bring in another tough minute Dman. That will require moving Kaberle though.

New management will need Molson to be generous this summer. He will have to dig deep into his pockets.

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Old
03-22-2012, 03:21 PM
  #48
RaMMuT
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
Markov is a BAWSS.

For a guy who hasn't played in 2 years, I think he's looked pretty good. He's obviously still got quite a bit of rust to shake off. If he can manage to stay healthy next year, I'm fairly optimistic that we'll see him revert to his old Norris-like self.

It's a win-win situation right now. Markov is using these games to shake off some rust and gain some confidence in his knee for next season. Him being a little rusty right now is preventing him from playing up to his Norris-like standards, which means he is not impeding operation tank in any way.

The next step is to win the lottery, and have Markov's young Russian comrade Yakupov join the Habs' Russian contingent.

SEE YOU NEXT TIME!!!
I approve this message.

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Old
03-22-2012, 03:22 PM
  #49
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The largest problem our defense is facing at the time is simply that it plays under no proper game system. Cunnyworth just don't cut it as a game strategist, and our players are going around like headless chickens. I've said it months ago, I say it again.

Markov is simply not being a superstellar game changer like we know he can be because.. It'd hard to ancitipate play when you have little ideas what's the gameplan your teammates will follow. Under JM, Markov adapted quickly.

So without play anticipation on par with his usual self, the lingering fear for repeating the injury and the plain rust of not being in the game for years,.. No wonder he has problems.

Hopefully, this year will give him a jolt to wake him back, and he'll be his old self during Training camp. It doesn't worry me much.

Subban seems much happier and effective since Markov's return, however. 28:00 TOI yesterday!

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Old
03-22-2012, 03:24 PM
  #50
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
My point is simply that there is no conclusion to be drawn here.
So this means I can't say that he hasn't looked good so far?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Did you expect him to be better than what he has shown in his first 5games back in almost 2years of hockey?
He is exactly where I thought he'd be. Still great vision, still has the offensive skills, skating I weak and positioning needs work. That's exactly where I thought he'd be.

Will he improve? If he stays healthy, I don't see why not.

The question remains will he stay healthy? We can't answer that. And if it wasn't predictable enough earlier this year, it should certainly be next season. We have to plan as if he will miss time. We need to bring in another tough minute Dman. That will require moving Kaberle though.

New management will need Molson to be generous this summer. He will have to dig deep into his pockets.
I really didn't know what to expect. Like I said before he came back though, we should just assume he's not going to be healthy next year. Whether he'd come back strong or not, that's my position. The fact that he doesn't look all that great (in my opinion anyway) does nothing but reinforce my belief that we can't count on him for much next season.

You say that as long as he stays healthy there's no reason to believe that he won't improve. Of course there is. There's very good reason to believe that he's past his best before date. He could be slow and ineffective as he's been since he's come back. You've got to stop with this whole "we can't know anything before it happens" way of thinking dude. You've got to have foresight and PLAN for things. And we should PLAN on him being ineffective or injured. If he comes back strong... so much the better. If not, we're prepared for it.


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