I agree that Gainey was obsessed with the center position, that's the baseline, but I don't agree that the obsession was logically-founded, and thus I don't agree that the Gomez trade was necessary.
The team fundamentally underestimated Plekanec. He had a bad season, but bad seasons happen to good players. That's why they offered him a 1-year contract for 2.7 million. They were not sure he could be a to-6 center. He is a top-20 center in the NHL if you average over the last few years.
They also overestimated Gomez. If you're going to throw a good package at a center, fine. But why do so for a center who is inferior to Koivu? Getting Gaborik to play on Koivu's wing would have been better. They could have also kept Tanguay -- he was the perfect winger for Koivu. I agree that having an elite center is nice, but it doesn't follow that having a second tier center is almost as nice. It's not.
The BS about teams being built down the middle was just armchair GMs who hated Koivu gravitating to the nearest slogan. It was not the root cause of the Habs problems. The problem of the 2008-09 season was injuries, and thus, likely a combination of bad luck, poor conditioning, and poor equipment.
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I forgot to say, in the 2009 draft, 5 of the Habs 7 draft picks went to centers, including 1st rounder Louis Leblanc and 3rd round Joonas Nattinen. Gainey also signed Mikael Johansson and Andreas Engvist to contracts, in the hopes either one might pan out.
Even if Gainey's thoughts about center were logically founded... why go after Gomez? I mean seriously he wasn't much of an upgrade (if at all) on Koivu. His paycheck was sick and his numbers had been declining. What in the world made Gainey feel that he absolutely HAD to have this guy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danadiens
People here don't remember that McDo wasn't seen that good when the trade was made. Was average in college and didn't do too well in the WJC. He just exploded in the years after the trade. Stop saying you knew all the way he would be a stud, as some here were already saying he was the next Fischer...
Hipocrisy...
Mere months before he was traded, he was ranked as our best prosepect by this very site. He was a top 20 prospect in the entire league (I think it was 14th) when it happened. Everyone here thought he was a great prospect until he got dealt, then a bunch of people changed their opinion and suddenly this guy was labled a bust.
It's not surprising in the least that he's turning out to be a great player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danadiens
Hipocrisy...
Right back at you.
Don't come here now and try to pretend like we thought this guy was a nothing prospect. Folks here were furious when it happened and didn't need hindsight to show them that this was a terrible move.
Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 03-22-2012 at 11:12 AM.
I think you mean Halak right? Still, your point stands and I can't believe there are still people trying to defend this stupid trade.
Yeah, I definitely meant Halak. That was a stupid typo. To be fair to those who are saying the Gomez trade is more palatable because of the playoff run, it really was a fun time. The game 6 versus Washington was one of the best games I've ever been to live. Not in terms of the Habs play, we were dominated, but what a nail biter of an elimination game.
But man we're paying for that trade and will be for a long time.
Even if Gainey's thoughts about center were logically founded... why go after Gomez? I mean seriously he wasn't much of an upgrade (if at all) on Koivu. His paycheck was sick and his numbers had been declining. What in the world made Gainey feel that he absolutely HAD to have this guy?
When people are obsessed and under intense scrutiny they are vulnerable to making poor decisions, decisions that only look good when analyzed superficially.
I'm calling it as I see it: a brain fart.
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That said we are in a decent position to move on if we get a competent GM. The obsession with the center position leaves us with the legacy of Lars Eller, Louis Leblanc, and Joonas Nattinen, and an excellent draft pick coming in this summer. These assets have a high potential -- but we'll need to develop them properly.
The Roy trade, similarly, resulted in the opportunity to draft Mike Komisarek, Marcel Hossa, etc.
The BS about teams being built down the middle was just armchair GMs who hated Koivu gravitating to the nearest slogan. It was not the root cause of the Habs problems. The problem of the 2008-09 season was injuries, and thus, likely a combination of bad luck, poor conditioning, and poor equipment.
I was a big Koivu fan, but talking about keeping him is very hypothetical. The fact was that he was run out of town, not just by the usual types (wink) who have been on his case since the late 1990s, but more tellingly he was run out by management. We don't know what went on behind the scenes, but when a decade long captain (and still effective player) is not even offered a contract, it shows that management was at least partially blaming him for the 2009 collapse... I would like to think that hall of fame captain Bob Gainey knows a thing or two about leadership, and clearly wasn't happy with Saku.
I was a big Koivu fan, but talking about keeping him is very hypothetical. The fact was that he was run out of town, not just by the usual types (wink) who have been on his case since the late 1990s, but more tellingly he was run out by management.
Agreed -- management is to blame for the loss of Koivu.
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I remember reading an article that Gainey spoke to the players about new equipment after the Lang injury. I immediately wondered -- why did he wait until after the devastating loss of Lang to to change the equipment?
Laraque, Markov, Schneider, Komisarek, Tanguay, Koivu, Higgins, Latendresse, Andrei Kostitsyn, Lang all lost significant playing time to injury that season.
Carbonneau's 1st line was Lapierre-Kostopoulos-Latendresse for a stretch of 20 games or so.
I'm not... But if Bob Gainey had reason to blame Koivu, I will accept that (even tho I loved him as a player). We don't know what was going on behind the scenes, you are the one who is being rather bold in absolving Koivu of responsibility for the disaster.
Management release as UFA decade long captain & fan favourite, plus still decent NHL player, no contract offer, all with no real explanation, and you think they are trying to scapegoat him when the the injury excuse was very plausable? This was very telling that they had some behind the scenes reasons...
I feel like the Roy trade has been getting too much press. At the time, it was a bad deal because of what Roy meant to the team, but the pieces we got back weren't as bad as they look in hindsight.
The Turgeon trade on the other hand, mind-boggling. An elite center for a shell of the former Corson. To boot, we threw in a 1000-game player in Conroy.
Also wanted to vote the Langway deal since we gave up 3 really good pieces.
Yeah, I definitely meant Halak. That was a stupid typo. To be fair to those who are saying the Gomez trade is more palatable because of the playoff run, it really was a fun time. The game 6 versus Washington was one of the best games I've ever been to live. Not in terms of the Habs play, we were dominated, but what a nail biter of an elimination game.
At least we caused collateral damage by sending the Caps into a tailspin.
The Caps have lost their identity since they lost that series...
I'm not... But if Bob Gainey had reason to blame Koivu, I will accept that (even tho I loved him as a player). We don't know what was going on behind the scenes, you are the one who is being rather bold in absolving Koivu of responsibility for the disaster.
Management release as UFA decade long captain & fan favourite, plus still decent NHL player, no contract offer, all with no real explanation, and you think they are trying to scapegoat him when the the injury excuse was very plausable? This was very telling that they had some behind the scenes reasons...
If Koivu is to blame the collapse, which I don't think he is, then you still have a failed management decision. They should have sold their 10 UFAs at the deadline rather than lost them for nothing. Philadelphia was rumored to be offering JVR and a 1st for Mike Komisarek.
People here don't remember that McDo wasn't seen that good when the trade was made. Was average in college and didn't do too well in the WJC. He just exploded in the years after the trade. Stop saying you knew all the way he would be a stud, as some here were already saying he was the next Fischer...
Hipocrisy...
McDo didn't have the sophomore year anticipated, but had a very good junior year. And not doing too well in the WJC is not a reason enough to trade a guy. They thought in 2007 that he was a stud and a great complete d-man. You don't suddenly think he's a waste after 1 year of College and a bad WJC. And as bad as you think he was, at worst, he was behind Subban in the prospect pool. You STILL don't trade a guy like that for a guy the other team wanted to get rid of. By the way, what is important is what THEY think. Not us. They have to know how important he is way more than what we think with our limited viewing compared to theirs.
McDo didn't have the sophomore year anticipated, but had a very good junior year. And not doing too well in the WJC is not a reason enough to trade a guy. They thought in 2007 that he was a stud and a great complete d-man. You don't suddenly think he's a waste after 1 year of College and a bad WJC. And as bad as you think he was, at worst, he was behind Subban in the prospect pool. You STILL don't trade a guy like that for a guy the other team wanted to get rid of. By the way, what is important is what THEY think. Not us. They have to know how important he is way more than what we think with our limited viewing compared to theirs.
Regardless of McDonagh or somebody else, Gainey got caught being desperate.
Gomez??? Really? Roy trade is 10 times worse. Are we seriously comparing Gomez trade to Roy trade? One, we got a big contract(and lets be honest, not every team spends to the cap, so no excuses) and we traded a young top 4 d-man. The other we lost a generational goalie talent and one of, if not the best all time. I hate gomez's contract as much as the next guy, but these aren't even on same page.
I'm not... But if Bob Gainey had reason to blame Koivu, I will accept that (even tho I loved him as a player). We don't know what was going on behind the scenes, you are the one who is being rather bold in absolving Koivu of responsibility for the disaster.
Management release as UFA decade long captain & fan favourite, plus still decent NHL player, no contract offer, all with no real explanation, and you think they are trying to scapegoat him when the the injury excuse was very plausable? This was very telling that they had some behind the scenes reasons...
If management felt we needed to replace Koivu and the core, that's fair enough. But to let all those guys walk away with no return is unforgiveable. Moreover, to go out and overpay for a guy who the other team couldnt' wait to be rid of is lunacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan
At least we caused collateral damage by sending the Caps into a tailspin.
The Caps have lost their identity since they lost that series...
They really have. The crazy defensive system they played the next season negated their biggest strength... offense. They ran into a hot goalie and got beat. It happens. Unfortunately for them they overreacted and now they're a shell of their former selves.
Injuries and OV's lack of focus have played a big role too but they're way too good a team to be fighting for a playoff spot. There's just no excuse for them to be where they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion
If Koivu is to blame the collapse, which I don't think he is, then you still have a failed management decision. They should have sold their 10 UFAs at the deadline rather than lost them for nothing. Philadelphia was rumored to be offering JVR and a 1st for Mike Komisarek.
I don't remember that one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist
Gomez??? Really? Roy trade is 10 times worse. Are we seriously comparing Gomez trade to Roy trade? One, we got a big contract(and lets be honest, not every team spends to the cap, so no excuses) and we traded a young top 4 d-man. The other we lost a generational goalie talent and one of, if not the best all time. I hate gomez's contract as much as the next guy, but these aren't even on same page.
Depends on how you look at it. From a consequential standpoint I think pretty much everyone would agree that the Roy trade was worse. But from the standpoint of wrongheadedness the Gomez one is right up there with it. Totally unnecessary move that made absolutely no sense at all.
Actually it's Leclaire, Desjardins, Dionne for Dr. Recchi (and 3rd rnd pick). Team has still not recovered.
The Leclair, Desjardin trade was the WORST. A worse trade was never made by the Habs. They gave up the power forward who potted 50 goals a year , and a good defender for a Philly forward.
Desjardin scored a hat trick to win a playoff game for the Habs. Did Recchi? No.
The Leclair, Desjardin trade was the WORST. A worse trade was never made by the Habs. They gave up the power forward who potted 50 goals a year , and a good defender for a Philly forward.
Desjardin scored a hat trick to win a playoff game for the Habs. Did Recchi? No.
Is that a joke?
We gave up a lot, but we got a frikkin top end scorer and a first-ballot HoFer in his prime. Bad deal, but miles behind some of the others.
What are you on? Recchi never produced in Montreal like Leclair did in Philly! Name the power forward who popped 50 a season regulaly for the Habs after that!
What are you on? Recchi never produced in Montreal like Leclair did in Philly! Name the power forward who popped 50 a season regulaly for the Habs after that!
Yeah, what a bad trade. We just got a 1500 career point player.
It should never have gotten to that point...you know letting him in for 8 goals and having him force a trade. Thibeault was a good young goalie, but they should ahve gotten a 1st and a top prospect instead of Rucinsky and Kovalenko(neither were bad players but not great long term value).
Tremblay and him never got along, Tremblay was as a bad a coach as Houle was a GM, thanks dumbass Corey.
Rucinsky played for decently us for nearly 8 seasons, im not likely to complain about him. Thibault is the reason that trade failed.
