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The Titans\Vols\Dores\Whatever other sport thread(IT ALL GOES HERE) Part II

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Old
03-19-2012, 11:23 PM
  #401
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First, Peytipie bails, and then little Middle bounces UT from the "other" tournament.

Pretty good day all around.

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03-20-2012, 07:57 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
You'll notice that no young studs have developed behind Peyton...
Correlation is not causation. No young studs have developed behind Manning because the Colts have not invested anything (valuable draft picks or practice/game time) on backup QBs. And why would you? Marino or Brady never had a young stud as backup (though we were fooled by Scott Mitchell and Matt Cassel). Drew Brees has no one of note behind him in New Orleans. Aaron Rodgers and Steve Young are exceptions to the rule (especially considering that Favre went out of his way not to mentor Rodgers).

There's no question this is completely devastating to the Titans and likely ended Bud Adams' last chance at a Super Bowl. There was a nice little window of success here while the power shifted to the NFC and teams like the Ravens and Steelers either aged or were purged. But this won't be a Super Bowl caliber team for the foreseeable future. And if Locker ever develops into that type of elite QB, it'll be as this roster of players turns over and a new crew comes in (CJ goes to the RB old folks home and Britt goes UFA or becomes a huge cap hit).

Personally, I am ecstatic by the news. The Predators organization was terrified by the prospect of Manning in a Titans uniform. They were concerned that significant sponsorship dollars that they worked so hard to secure were going to go across the river. Now the Preds are in a perfect position to further gain ground on a franchise that is stagnant.

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03-21-2012, 12:24 PM
  #403
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Don't mind the MUsharoom cloud over New Orleans that's just the Saints' punishment.


Sean Payton suspended for the year.

GM of the Saints Loomis suspended for 6 months

Gregg Williams suspended indefinitely. And I think it's indefinitely like Pete Rose.


AND the Saints forfeit their 2nd's this year and next.

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03-21-2012, 12:28 PM
  #404
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Williams doesn't effect New Orleans. He's with St. Louis now.

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03-21-2012, 12:29 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
Don't mind the MUsharoom cloud over New Orleans that's just the Saints' punishment.


Sean Payton suspended for the year.

GM of the Saints Loomis suspended for 6 months

Gregg Williams suspended indefinitely. And I think it's indefinitely like Pete Rose.


AND the Saints forfeit their 2nd's this year and next.
Gregg Williams is now DC for the Rams..or was, anyway.

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03-21-2012, 12:43 PM
  #406
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Wow, the NFL knows how to hand down sanctions. Sounds like the Saints organization thumbed it's nose at Goodell when they were told to put an end to the bounties.

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03-21-2012, 12:45 PM
  #407
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here's the other point, there is a hint of player suspensions as well. This might be the tip of the iceburgh if true.

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03-21-2012, 01:53 PM
  #408
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I'm amused by the bounty situation. All we are seeing is the monetization of something that already exists: NFL defenders playing violently and wishing harm upon offensive players. We are just uncomfortable with the notion that players try to injure one another even though common sense tells us it has to happen, bounty or no bounty.

The NFL players don't see the big deal in the bounty program because the know what happens on the field, the violence, the injuries, etc. They are legitimately confused by the public outrage. "You wanted violent hits, and you got violent hits. And now you dare question the manner in which those violent hits occur?"

I think Dan Lebatard said it best. This is like the legendary Code Red scene from A Few Good Men:

Quote:
Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury.

You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall.

We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it.

I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

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03-21-2012, 03:36 PM
  #409
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I know it isn't a bounty system, but those cute little helmet stickers in college given for big hits, runs etc could be the same type of thing. Incentiive to take a guys head off.

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03-21-2012, 04:29 PM
  #410
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I bet if you put it to public opinion, at least 3/4 of NFL fans have no problem with this whatsoever. The NFL will be a flag football league in no time.

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03-21-2012, 04:41 PM
  #411
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The bounty system rewarded outcome, not action. Big hits are great and players will get hurt from some of them. Deliberately trying to injure is something else.

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03-21-2012, 05:16 PM
  #412
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The bounty system rewarded outcome, not action. Big hits are great and players will get hurt from some of them. Deliberately trying to injure is something else.
I fail to see any distinction you are making as it relates to actions/outcome. Many rewards are geared toward an outcome. The outcome is the tangible realization of actions. The board wants to incentivize the C-suite to increase the share price. So they give them an outcome based incentive (such as stock options). The actions (smart decisions, etc.) aren't directly being incentivized. The outcome is. I'm sure actions are also incentivized in many ways, but often it's the outcome that we see incentivized. I don't see how incentivizing an outcome in this instance inherently makes the reward program more heinous.

I believe we have a sanitized view of hitting in sports. We think that Ray Lewis or Scott Stevens just wants to hit for the sake of hitting, as if there's no real value in the hit beyond dispossessing the ball/puck carrier. We can all pretend that Scott Stevens was just trying to dispossess the puck carrier when he levels Eric Lindros or Paul Kariya. But he's doing so knowing his actions will hurt, significantly. He's probably not setting out to knock those two out of the game, but doing so is an even more impressive hockey play that rewards his team significantly (provided its within the context of the rules). He's hitting for the purpose of inflicting pain, which is the manifestation of an injury. Said another way, he's hitting to injure. I don't see any distinction between real hitting and attempts to injure, provided the latter is not borderline or dirty.

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03-21-2012, 05:24 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
I fail to see any distinction you are making as it relates to actions/outcome. Many rewards are geared toward an outcome. The outcome is the tangible realization of actions. The board wants to incentivize the C-suite to increase the share price. So they give them an outcome based incentive (such as stock options). The actions (smart decisions, etc.) aren't directly being incentivized. The outcome is. I'm sure actions are also incentivized in many ways, but often it's the outcome that we see incentivized. I don't see how incentivizing an outcome in this instance inherently makes the reward program more heinous.

I believe we have a sanitized view of hitting in sports. We think that Ray Lewis or Scott Stevens just wants to hit for the sake of hitting, as if there's no real value in the hit beyond dispossessing the ball/puck carrier. We can all pretend that Scott Stevens was just trying to dispossess the puck carrier when he levels Eric Lindros or Paul Kariya. But he's doing so knowing his actions will hurt, significantly. He's probably not setting out to knock those two out of the game, but doing so is an even more impressive hockey play that rewards his team significantly (provided its within the context of the rules). He's hitting for the purpose of inflicting pain, which is the manifestation of an injury. Said another way, he's hitting to injure. I don't see any distinction between real hitting and attempts to injure, provided the latter is not borderline or dirty.
The NHL sees a difference in clean hits and intent to injure. Intent comes into play in legal situations when differentiating between manslaughter and murder. Going out of your way to injure a player is inherently dirty. If the guy with a job description that involves potentially killing people gets that difference and you don't ... well, that's a sad commentary in itself.

The hitting isn't incentivized here. Tackling isn't. The act of injuring is incentivized.

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03-21-2012, 07:09 PM
  #414
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Saints been watching too much Slap Shot?????

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03-22-2012, 05:00 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Going out of your way to injure a player is inherently dirty. If the guy with a job description that involves potentially killing people gets that difference and you don't ... well, that's a sad commentary in itself.
I would agree it would be a sad commentary, if anyone had said that. But you've just distorted my point of view until its unrecognizable to me and then insulted me with it all while declaring subject matter superiority. That is an HF hattrick.

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The NHL sees a difference in clean hits and intent to injure.
The NHL sees the difference because they have to create some delineation between clean hits, illegal hits and illegal hits with an intent to injure otherwise they’d unintentionally legislate away hitting completely. The intent to injure is buried within every hit. To what degree that intent is obvious or the sole/primary motivation of the hit varies and, in my opinion, is what the NHL tries to determine. That’s why the word deliberate is used before the phrase “intent to injure.” It’s the NHL’s way of acknowledging there’s inherent intent on every hit but that the most obvious and egregious attempts to injure should be punished (or punished more severely).

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Intent comes into play in legal situations when differentiating between manslaughter and murder.
Of course intent, especially degrees of intent (which is a differentiator between voluntary manslaughter and murder), comes into play in many walks of life. I've not argued otherwise.

One of my contentions is simply there's never or rarely an absence of intent to injure in a significant hit. At the very least, there's basic intent. I agree that those with specific intent to injure should be punished more severely. I believe that most hits are a blend of basic intent (i.e. deliberately ignored the risk inherent in the hit) and specific intent (i.e. serious harm was intended by the hit).

But as it relates to the Saints, I don't believe they were substantially dirtier than any other team, and why would they be? All defenders hit with that blend of basic and specific intent, knowing full well that quality hits significantly increase the likelihood of injury. A bounty system might make the Saints hit more, but it doesn’t have to make them dirty(er), especially when an increase in dirty hits is going to draw significant fines, on-field penalties and scrutiny, undermining the team’s chances of winning. NFL defenders know that every big hit, clean or not, has a chance of injury. So there’s no real specific need to actually deliberately injure anyone, just hit them hard knowing the possible outcomes.

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The hitting isn't incentivized here. Tackling isn't. The act of injuring is incentivized.
But I’m not even sure the bounty program has a substantial impact on the players. It's just an extension of the glorification of violence in NFL lockerrooms, where players congratulate each other on major hits that knock players out, regardless of any cash changing hands. Besides, the NFL determined that insignificant fines weren't a deterrent (fines are often $10k+ now for this reason), so why would insignificant bonuses be an incentive? The real incentive to injuring Kurt Warner or Brett Favre was the increased probability of winning the playoff game, not $1,000. And that's always been there, along with the ever-present intent to injure. And that's why I think NFL defenders are so surprised by America's reaction to this.


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03-22-2012, 08:13 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
I would agree it would be a sad commentary, if anyone had said that. But you've just distorted my point of view until its unrecognizable to me and then insulted me with it all while declaring subject matter superiority. That is an HF hattrick.



The NHL sees the difference because they have to create some delineation between clean hits, illegal hits and illegal hits with an intent to injure otherwise theyíd unintentionally legislate away hitting completely. The intent to injure is buried within every hit. To what degree that intent is obvious or the sole/primary motivation of the hit varies and, in my opinion, is what the NHL tries to determine. Thatís why the word deliberate is used before the phrase ďintent to injure.Ē Itís the NHLís way of acknowledging thereís inherent intent on every hit but that the most obvious and egregious attempts to injure should be punished (or punished more severely).



Of course intent, especially degrees of intent (which is a differentiator between voluntary manslaughter and murder), comes into play in many walks of life. I've not argued otherwise.

One of my contentions is simply there's never or rarely an absence of intent to injure in a significant hit. At the very least, there's basic intent. I agree that those with specific intent to injure should be punished more severely. I believe that most hits are a blend of basic intent (i.e. deliberately ignored the risk inherent in the hit) and specific intent (i.e. serious harm was intended by the hit).

But as it relates to the Saints, I don't believe they were substantially dirtier than any other team, and why would they be? All defenders hit with that blend of basic and specific intent, knowing full well that quality hits significantly increase the likelihood of injury. A bounty system might make the Saints hit more, but it doesnít have to make them dirty(er), especially when an increase in dirty hits is going to draw significant fines, on-field penalties and scrutiny, undermining the teamís chances of winning. NFL defenders know that every big hit, clean or not, has a chance of injury. So thereís no real specific need to actually deliberately injure anyone, just hit them hard knowing the possible outcomes.



But Iím not even sure the bounty program has a substantial impact on the players. It's just an extension of the glorification of violence in NFL lockerrooms, where players congratulate each other on major hits that knock players out, regardless of any cash changing hands. Besides, the NFL determined that insignificant fines weren't a deterrent (fines are often $10k+ now for this reason), so why would insignificant bonuses be an incentive? The real incentive to injuring Kurt Warner or Brett Favre was the increased probability of winning the playoff game, not $1,000. And that's always been there, along with the ever-present intent to injure. And that's why I think NFL defenders are so surprised by America's reaction to this.
The incentives that resulted in suspensions were for "cart offs" and "knock outs" ... all injury based, not based on anything related to play. The Saints quite simply incentivized the act of injuring people, not anything related to playing football.

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03-22-2012, 08:21 PM
  #417
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The incentives that resulted in suspensions were for "cart offs" and "knock outs" ... all injury based, not based on anything related to play. The Saints quite simply incentivized the act of injuring people, not anything related to playing football.
I'd say many more teams than just the Saints. They're just the fools who got caught, agreed to correct it and failed to correct it. Funny that it's not even the bounties that earned them this punishment, but the fact that they were told to stop and didn't.

But clearly a lot of other teams are doing it, every locker room may call it something different, or offer different incentives for different results, but it happens in many more rooms than just New Orleans.

That's why I don't have a big problem with it, it's an inherently violent game played by extremely competitive men. They all know what's going on before they step on the field. The league wants to act like it's an outrage though and this is the only time it's happened, kind of like how they were so mad about the show "Playmakers", sometimes the NFL just can't come to terms with reality.

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03-22-2012, 08:38 PM
  #418
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I'd say many more teams than just the Saints. They're just the fools who got caught, agreed to correct it and failed to correct it. Funny that it's not even the bounties that earned them this punishment, but the fact that they were told to stop and didn't.

But clearly a lot of other teams are doing it, every locker room may call it something different, or offer different incentives for different results, but it happens in many more rooms than just New Orleans.

That's why I don't have a big problem with it, it's an inherently violent game played by extremely competitive men. They all know what's going on before they step on the field. The league wants to act like it's an outrage though and this is the only time it's happened, kind of like how they were so mad about the show "Playmakers", sometimes the NFL just can't come to terms with reality.
I wouldn't have a problem with them putting incentives on hits that make the SportsCenter top 10 ... but when the criteria was injury, that's where I see the issue coming into play. Couple that with the league and owners both saying to cut it out and the staff failing to do so, let them rot in hell and I hope Peyton enjoys losing more in salary this year than most of us will make in our lives.

Just wait until this starts hitting players ... and other teams as similar programs come to light.

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03-22-2012, 08:57 PM
  #419
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4-0 USA up on 10-man Cuba at the break in Nashville.

Speaking of LP Field, the Titans signed Kamerion Wimbley the other day to a 5-year, $35M contract. He has made a nice career for himself as an OLB, but Munchak wants to use him as a DE...

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03-23-2012, 04:26 AM
  #420
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Well I'm heading to Atlanta around 9:30 to see the Sweet Sixteen games tonight and cheer on UK. Get to drive all the way to Nashville to see the game tomorrow night and then drive all the way to Atlanta to watch UK again on Sunday if they win tonight. I'll be damned if Florida and Louisville make the Elite 8 and UK doesn't. I'm gonna try to stay out of arguments with Indiana fans tonight too.

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03-23-2012, 06:02 AM
  #421
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4-0 USA up on 10-man Cuba at the break in Nashville.

Speaking of LP Field, the Titans signed Kamerion Wimbley the other day to a 5-year, $35M contract. He has made a nice career for himself as an OLB, but Munchak wants to use him as a DE...
To quote modest mouse... They truly missed the boat ... Mario Williams is the better player, but no we had to hey caught up in the peyton games

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03-23-2012, 09:19 AM
  #422
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Well I'm heading to Atlanta around 9:30 to see the Sweet Sixteen games tonight and cheer on UK. Get to drive all the way to Nashville to see the game tomorrow night and then drive all the way to Atlanta to watch UK again on Sunday if they win tonight. I'll be damned if Florida and Louisville make the Elite 8 and UK doesn't. I'm gonna try to stay out of arguments with Indiana fans tonight too.
I'd wish your team good luck, but I just have a hard time pulling for Calipari and his NBA team. Thus, go IU.

FWIW, Wisconsin choked last night in a very similar fashion as Vanderbilt did against them. Karma Kramer??

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03-23-2012, 12:34 PM
  #423
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That wasn't a Wisconsin choke. That's usually what they look like on offense.

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03-23-2012, 01:31 PM
  #424
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Quote:
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That wasn't a Wisconsin choke. That's usually what they look like on offense.
yup. Stand around, jack-up a prayer three with 1 second on the shot clock and miraculously make it. Sounds about right...

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03-23-2012, 01:56 PM
  #425
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OWWWWIE!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, that's one of those injuries you send to Traces of Death and turn your head away to vomit.


http://content.usatoday.com/communit...1#.T2zHKzEgcV8

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