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Neverending Toughness Thread: Desharnais endorses White / Staubitz

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Old
03-22-2012, 01:56 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Hope he doesn't leave. Good player to have.
Agreed. Although at this point, I'd have to say he's definitely testing the UFA market or the habs will have to overpay to get him to stay. I can't believe that they haven't already approached him/his agent, so I don't see him as someone taking a discount to play here.

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03-22-2012, 01:56 PM
  #77
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Perfect? Hardly. We need guys that can take care of themselves on four lines and on three pairs of defensemen to be considered perfect. Also Tinordi has had toughness issues.
Add Cody Beach,the 6'6 RW St. Louis draft pick he's 19 and can score,play and loves fighting for his teammates.With the aforementioned Tinordi and the Habs team will be formidable even against the Bruins.The tough players need to play as well and all of Montreal's tough guys can do just that.Thank you Pierre Gauthier for bringing respectability to our team!

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03-22-2012, 02:10 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Prust is a better fighter than Staubitz. As for heavies, Staubitz isn't one either. Not that it matters, they're going the way of the dodo.

And you've said a few times in this thread that Staubitz can take a 'regular shift', is that why he's been playing 5 minutes or less every game? He's not a good hockey player. Granted, he's better than some of the heavies, but when put into his proper category of 'middle weight enforcer', because that's what he is, his utility or lack thereof becomes pretty obvious.

Given a choice between Prust and Staubitz, understanding you have a limited amount of spots in your forward roster, you take Staubitz?
Not sure where you get that Prust is a better fighter. In general he fights smaller guys and lesser fighters, Staubitz fight all the top guys so his record won't be as good.

It's not an either or choice, we already have Moen who can do what Prust does. Staubitz will cost you 500-600k for one year, in order to get a guy like Prust you'll have to give him 3 years and around 5 mil to leave NYR. That's money I prefer to spend on a 2nd line winger or a center to take some heat off Plekanec(defensively and on PK).

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03-22-2012, 02:14 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Agreed. Although at this point, I'd have to say he's definitely testing the UFA market or the habs will have to overpay to get him to stay. I can't believe that they haven't already approached him/his agent, so I don't see him as someone taking a discount to play here.
I'm sure they already have but with a concussion I'd wait till he was healthy before re-signing him.

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03-22-2012, 02:29 PM
  #80
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I really hope Moen, White, Blunden and Staubitz are still with the Habs next year. Emerlin, too. We would be wise to try land a guy like Shane O'Brien, also.

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03-22-2012, 02:50 PM
  #81
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I really hope Moen, White, Blunden and Staubitz are still with the Habs next year. Emerlin, too. We would be wise to try land a guy like Shane O'Brien, also.
We need more skill on defense...meaningr a physical stay at hyome guy that can play 20-22 minutes, O'brien isn't that.

People want insurance in case Markov goes down again, the best way to do that is to have Emelin and Diaz as #5-6. Those guys should be able to step up to 20 minutes a game if needed with a year under their belt.Plus adding a strong stay at home guy that can take some of that from PK. You keep Weber as #7 who steps in(and helps the PP) if Markov misses time.

Guys that would fill that need...Jackman Grossman Allen Stuart. O'brien could be a fallback option but I don't see him as a top 4 guy on a top team.

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03-22-2012, 03:00 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
They aren't terrible, they serve a purpose, but that purpose is depth and being a roleplayer.
They're terrible. Even allowing that there is such a role as "depth and being a roleplayer" rather than being what we call players who aren't good enough to be regulars... There are better players out there who could do the same job better -- well, in Staubitz case, he really has a job that's more for entertainment than to help win, but "useless goon" isn't a role that's hard to fill well.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
We have more pressing needs in bottom 6 though. For instance, I'd rather either a physical somewhat talented bottom 6 center like Gaustad or a shutdown center like Pahlsson over noke. That's a more pressing concern for me.
Agreed, but it has nothing to do with "physicality" and everything to do with these guys being miles and miles ahead of Nokelainen (or Blunden or Staubitz) as hockey players.

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03-22-2012, 03:05 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
They're terrible. Even allowing that there is such a role as "depth and being a roleplayer" rather than being what we call players who aren't good enough to be regulars... There are better players out there who could do the same job better -- well, in Staubitz case, he really has a job that's more for entertainment than to help win, but "useless goon" isn't a role that's hard to fill well.



Agreed, but it has nothing to do with "physicality" and everything to do with these guys being miles and miles ahead of Nokelainen (or Blunden or Staubitz) as hockey players.
Absolutely on 2nd part. Reality is, Pahlsson isn't intimidating, but he's a true shutdown guy. I'd take him in a heartbeat, return him with moen, add white and that's a solid shutdown line. The key of doing this is to allow Plekanec to have some easier minutes so he can be a #1 C offensively again.

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03-22-2012, 04:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Burke waived Orr because Rosehill is a better player, he can at least keep up with the play.
That's exactly my point. Orr is the better fighter but Rosehill is the better player. That's the evolution of enforcers that is slowly but surely taking place across the NHL. Now this may not be the best exemple but you know what i mean


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Gaustad isn't a guy that will add toughness, he fights like he is 5'9" 170lbs. what did he do when Lucic ran over Miller...SFA.
What ? Gaustad may not be the toughest guy in the league but he isn't afraid to get his nose dirty. The guy dropped them against Neil , Boulton , Lucic , Prust ect. He's also in the middle of scrums more often than not. To say that Paul Gaustad doesn't add any toughness is like saying Moen doesn't either. That doesn't compute. Just because he isn't the best fighter doesn't mean he isn't tough. And that's on top of all the other skills he possess (good defensively/on the pk , lay big hits , get under the opponent skin , produce decently for a bottom 6 forward , good leader ect). I'd take all those attributes and some toughness before the ability to hang with Lucic , Scott ect.

There is a reason why he went for a 1st at the deadline. The guy is a premium bottom 6 forward who does a bit of everything

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03-22-2012, 04:13 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by The Reem View Post
That's exactly my point. Orr is the better fighter but Rosehill is the better player. That's the evolution of enforcers that is slowly but surely taking place across the NHL. Now this may not be the best exemple but you know what i mean




What ? Gaustad may not be the toughest guy in the league but he isn't afraid to get his nose dirty. The guy dropped them against Neil , Boulton , Lucic , Prust ect. He's also in the middle of scrums more often than not. To say that Paul Gaustad doesn't add any toughness is like saying Moen doesn't either. That doesn't compute. Just because he isn't the best fighter doesn't mean he isn't tough. And that's on top of all the other skills he possess (good defensively/on the pk , lay big hits , get under the opponent skin , produce decently for a bottom 6 forward , good leader ect). I'd take all those attributes and some toughness before the ability to hang with Lucic , Scott ect.

There is a reason why he went for a 1st at the deadline. The guy is a premium bottom 6 forward who does a bit of everything
You said Prust instead of Staubitz. Staubitz is much more able to keep up with the pace than say MacIntyre or Laraque. You pay him 600-700k and if he only plays 45-60 games it's no big deal.

Not a huge fan of Gaustad, especially given that he will probably get something like 10 mil for 4 years or 7.5 for 3.

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03-22-2012, 05:29 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Prust is a better fighter than Staubitz. As for heavies, Staubitz isn't one either. Not that it matters, they're going the way of the dodo.

And you've said a few times in this thread that Staubitz can take a 'regular shift', is that why he's been playing 5 minutes or less every game? He's not a good hockey player. Granted, he's better than some of the heavies, but when put into his proper category of 'middle weight enforcer', because that's what he is, his utility or lack thereof becomes pretty obvious.

Given a choice between Prust and Staubitz, understanding you have a limited amount of spots in your forward roster, you take Staubitz?
No, Prust is not a better fighter than Stauby. Not at all.

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03-22-2012, 06:16 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Patty Roy View Post
I was big on the Scott bandwagon, but the reality is nobody wants to fight him so he's rendered super innefective.

On top of that he's too slow and too awkward to go out and initiate much and force the oppositions hand. The Bruins wanted no part of him the other week and i suspect nothing would change if we signed him this offseason.
Read what you just posted there. "The Bruins wanted no part of Scott".

The big bad Bruins were intimidated by Scott?

That is why they got Scott. Oh and for what its worth, the Rangers won that game against the Bruins.

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03-22-2012, 06:22 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Prust is a better fighter than Staubitz. As for heavies, Staubitz isn't one either. Not that it matters, they're going the way of the dodo.

And you've said a few times in this thread that Staubitz can take a 'regular shift', is that why he's been playing 5 minutes or less every game? He's not a good hockey player. Granted, he's better than some of the heavies, but when put into his proper category of 'middle weight enforcer', because that's what he is, his utility or lack thereof becomes pretty obvious.

Given a choice between Prust and Staubitz, understanding you have a limited amount of spots in your forward roster, you take Staubitz?
The last time Prust fought Staubitz was in 2010. Beware the left hand.........


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03-22-2012, 07:21 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
They're terrible. Even allowing that there is such a role as "depth and being a roleplayer" rather than being what we call players who aren't good enough to be regulars... There are better players out there who could do the same job better -- well, in Staubitz case, he really has a job that's more for entertainment than to help win, but "useless goon" isn't a role that's hard to fill well.
That's the easy answer from people who refuse to acknowledge what players are saying, what people who have lived to play competitive hockey which included fighting. It's a lame and weak argument in trying to convince people that fighting has no other purpose than entertainment, rebuffing those who know and say that it has the same effect as a goal, a good hit, a great defensive play or a great save, which is to change the momentum of a game.

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03-22-2012, 08:41 PM
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Nicely said. He loves to bring selective stats to prove points to people but refuses to acknowledge that there is a BUNCH of factors that can influence those stats he loves to talk about so much.

I mean seriously, **** the fact that Desharnais and Gorges said they felt bigger on the ice since Staubitz and White are here, **** the fact that Moen and White don't feel alone to defend their teammates, **** the fact that we now have somebody to take on the likes of Niel and Thornton when they yapp and cross-check the whole team after whistles, **** the fact that all of the TOP teams are equipped to hurt with their 4th lines and **** the fact fights in general have grown in numbers over the last 2 months....

What a joke some people are!

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03-22-2012, 08:42 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
That's the easy answer from people who refuse to acknowledge what players are saying, what people who have lived to play competitive hockey which included fighting. It's a lame and weak argument in trying to convince people that fighting has no other purpose than entertainment, rebuffing those who know and say that it has the same effect as a goal, a good hit, a great defensive play or a great save, which is to change the momentum of a game.
There is also the impact of your players knowing somebody "has their back". It won't protect them from everything, but still gives them a feeling of being "protected".

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03-22-2012, 09:26 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
There is also the impact of your players knowing somebody "has their back". It won't protect them from everything, but still gives them a feeling of being "protected".
A lot of people forget the mental factor in every play. Having a big guy who's good in the room is almost always beneficial - and when it wasn't was with that sycophant Laraque.

Staubitz, White, Blunden, Moen and Subban can definitely drop 'em if the game gets rowdy.

What we should be worried about is the damn coaching and high-end talent of this team. Pleks, Bourque and Gionta have a ton to prove next season.

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03-22-2012, 09:52 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
That's the easy answer from people who refuse to acknowledge what players are saying, what people who have lived to play competitive hockey which included fighting. It's a lame and weak argument in trying to convince people that fighting has no other purpose than entertainment, rebuffing those who know and say that it has the same effect as a goal, a good hit, a great defensive play or a great save, which is to change the momentum of a game.
the problem with anecdotal evidence, like relying on what some players say as fact, is that there is always other anecdotal evidence that suggests otherwise, eg., the Red Wings do not have an enforcer, instead every player on the team plays tough, and is accountable, and will stand up for themselves and each other. Fighting in hockey is useless, and is only relevant because the officiating and supplemental discipline is, and always will be, a joke.

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03-22-2012, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Hemlor View Post
the problem with anecdotal evidence, like relying on what some players say as fact, is that there is always other anecdotal evidence that suggests otherwise, eg., the Red Wings do not have an enforcer, instead every player on the team plays tough, and is accountable, and will stand up for themselves and each other. Fighting in hockey is useless, and is only relevant because the officiating and supplemental discipline is, and always will be, a joke.
What about relying on what players say (shouldn't they know since they live it) and relying on your own experience (if you've had that chance)? Does that count? Some people are so analytical that if it can't be measured with stats, it doesn't exist or it's irrelevant (in their opinion which they try to pass for fact).

As for the Wings, they've done well. Does that mean that they weren't playing "bigger" and felt "safer" back when Darren McCarty, Stu Grimson, Bob Probert and/or Joey Kocur were in the line-up? I somehow doubt it.

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03-22-2012, 10:34 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Not sure where you get that Prust is a better fighter. In general he fights smaller guys and lesser fighters, Staubitz fight all the top guys so his record won't be as good.

It's not an either or choice, we already have Moen who can do what Prust does. Staubitz will cost you 500-600k for one year, in order to get a guy like Prust you'll have to give him 3 years and around 5 mil to leave NYR. That's money I prefer to spend on a 2nd line winger or a center to take some heat off Plekanec(defensively and on PK).
I get that Prust is a better fighter than Staubitz because I've watched them fight. Prust is a more methodical fighter than Staubitz, not that Staubitz just throws random haymakers, but Prust thinks the fights out better, IMO. I'm not saying Staubitz is a bad fighter, just that I think Prust would be the scarier one to fight.

They've also fought twice before that I've been able to find on youtube. One of which was voted a draw on hockey fights, the other of which was given to prust. Prust can actually play a regular shift and contribute on the scoresheet, unlike Staubitz. He also has more fights this year than Staubitz.

As for payment, I really, really doubt that a paltry 1.6-1.7/year contract is what's going to stop us from signing some offensive depth. We're all hoping that we can get Moen for the same price as when he originally signed, we'd be saying the same about Prust in a few years if we got him at 1.4-1.6.

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03-22-2012, 10:53 PM
  #96
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I really hope Moen, White, Blunden and Staubitz are still with the Habs next year. Emerlin, too. We would be wise to try land a guy like Shane O'Brien, also.
Moen and Blunden? I don't know.

But I would like O'Brien very much.

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03-22-2012, 11:24 PM
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I'm not sure why so much credence is given to "what the players say" when what they're saying is carefully rehearsed PR aimed at not rocking the boat. It's all eminently predictable and hollow: if their team has an enforce they'll gush about how they're useful and if their team doesn't have one, they'll talk about "team toughness" and how the power play should be their enforcer.

It doesn't mean anything either way. It's all about assuring everyone that the team is perfect the way it is, until it changes then NOW it's perfect. Which is why it's really only remarkable if a player veers off from the cliches to criticize a teammate or coach. Otherwise, this subject isn't any different from pretty much any other: players don't express themselves, they do PR.

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03-23-2012, 02:41 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Burke waived Orr because Rosehill is a better player, he can at least keep up with the play.

Gaustad isn't a guy that will add toughness, he fights like he is 5'9" 170lbs. what did he do when Lucic ran over Miller...SFA.
When Lucic ran over Miller Gaustad did the same as Lucic did when Cooke ended Savard's career. Guess Lucic fights like he's 5'9 170lbs too?

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03-23-2012, 02:54 AM
  #99
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Not sure where you get that Prust is a better fighter. In general he fights smaller guys and lesser fighters, Staubitz fight all the top guys so his record won't be as good.
In the last two seasons Prust has fought Lucic twice, Boulton twice, Janssen, Clowe, Eager, Engelland, O'Brien, Rupp, Konopka, Barch, Rosehill, Sutton. That doesn't look like a list of 'smaller guys and lesser fighters' to me.

The guy once took an instigator for going after Steve McIntyre in defence of a team mate ffs!

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03-23-2012, 03:25 AM
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Yeah, I'd rather pay 1M to Prust than to Staubitz for the extra occasional offensive contribution.

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