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Shanahan’s ruling on Keith a big deal (5 games for Dunc)

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Old
03-23-2012, 09:39 AM
  #76
zytz
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I still don't understand how how folks can so definitively believe this was predatory and pre-meditated... and based off a twitter comment no less! That's hearsay... and even if it IS true stuff like this gets said every game- there's a lot of emotion on the ice and players talk **** to each other.

Here's how I see the hit:

I think Keith enters the play with the intention of playing the puck and also laying a hit. He's got his stick raised like he's going to knock the puck down. At some point Keith sees he won't be able to to do both, and so opts to lay the hit. This is really the dirtiest part of the hit, IMO. Sedin doesn't have the puck, Keith stops trying to play the puck... really a textbook definition of when not to hit. What's really unfortunate is that Keith has already got his arms raise over his head and when he makes the hit his elbow catches Sedin full in the face.

He absolutely deserves a suspension for the hit, not because he was predatory but because it was reckless and negligent and resulted in injury- one of the exact types of hits that the league wants to get rid of. Keith needs to be held accountable for this play.... but really to say its predatory, vicious... headhunting ? That's not Keith's game... never has, never will be... he's just not that type of player.

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03-23-2012, 09:42 AM
  #77
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After sleeping on it, I think Keith gets 7 games which is ridiculous but I don't see why Shannahan would call an in person meeting if he wasn't going to go for more than 5 games.

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03-23-2012, 09:43 AM
  #78
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I'm pretty sure it's been pretty well supported by video that Keith said something like "I'm going to get you" after Sedin made the original hit. so there's your premeditated.

And I guess the predatory factor is a matter of opinion to some extent, but to me it's pretty clear. Sedin wasn't really close to the puck at all, Keith went high with his elbow to an unsuspecting player.

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03-23-2012, 09:44 AM
  #79
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Chris Kuc tweeted the NHLPA has to agree to changing the hearing from a phone hearing to an in person hearing. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

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03-23-2012, 09:46 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Larmer View Post
I'm pretty sure it's been pretty well supported by video that Keith said something like "I'm going to get you" after Sedin made the original hit. so there's your premeditated.

And I guess the predatory factor is a matter of opinion to some extent, but to me it's pretty clear. Sedin wasn't really close to the puck at all, Keith went high with his elbow to an unsuspecting player.
But like I said.. even if Keith did say he was going to get Sedin... that gets said by multiple players every game. I'm sure much worse gets said, in fact.

Correlation doesn't prove causation- I.e. Just because Keith said that, and then did hit Sedin, doesn't mean that it was premeditated.

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03-23-2012, 10:02 AM
  #81
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Looking at other hits under similar circumstances, repeat offenders have gotten at most five games.

I would suspect that Keith's suspension will have the same upper limit.

Anything more than that, and the league will have decided to make an example out of Duncs.

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03-23-2012, 10:07 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
Looking at other hits under similar circumstances, repeat offenders have gotten at most five games.

I would suspect that Keith's suspension will have the same upper limit.

Anything more than that, and the league will have decided to make an example out of Duncs.
And talk about the WRONG player to make an example of. A guy who doesn't play a physical, risk-taking game. Who is bashed in some ways by fans for not being physical at all, and just playing the puck and using his speed. A guy who has to be near the bottom of the team in number of hits.

Yea, great guy to make an example of...

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03-23-2012, 10:10 AM
  #83
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When Brad Marchand of the Boston Bruins got five games in January for clipping Vancouver’s Sami Salo, who was concussed on the hit, Shanahan highlighted that it was not an “instinctive” hit, noted past bad behaviour, and concluded: “We feel this was a predatory, low hit delivered intentionally by Marchand.”


So even if Shannahan thinks Keith's hit was predatory and resulted in injury, how does he give him more than 5 games or less in light of the fact that he's not a repeat offender.

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03-23-2012, 10:40 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by The Kassian Train View Post
Whoa easy there bud. I came in here for a discussion on this particular hit. I would be open to discussion on why you think otherwise as to why you think the NHL has gone from a phone hearing to a in person hearing in less than a 12 hour window? Who's to say that it didn't happen and who's to say it did? Keith never came out and denied the claim obviously not saying he should even care for that statement.

So you're assuming that I'm part of this homer fanbase, when I have come in here to have an open discussion. So what you're doing is basically being a hypocritical Hawks fan by thinking that I am here to defend Daniel and point all the blame at Keith? Funny enough we haven't even had a discussion yet you've already made generalizations about me and my hockey knowledge.

1.) I apparently "buy" into the ways they do things. I don't buy into what they do and heck I know they get away with calls, every team gets away with calls. You battle through them. Funny that you should mention that the Canucks use the Media to get what they want. Wasn't it Bolland who threw a shot saying that he didn't want the Sedin sisters on the Hawks? It works both ways. The media is a tool for any team and any team who doesn't use the media in a hockey mad market would be foolish to not use it to their disposal.

2.) I do recall Burrows trying to get at Keith after the hit. Sure you can go and say "Well, yeah he grabbed his hair before who would want to get a in scuffle with someone like that?" Fair, but there were other players have challenged him to a scuffle for the rest of the night. Where was Keith then? The whole team was trying to get at him and to say that the Canucks were trying to only get at him after the game is pretty naive. I believe the Canucks were so distracted for the whole 2nd period trying to get at Keith that the refs had to assess 3 misconducts, two to the Canucks and then to Keith to "manage" the game.

Just out of curiousity, if Keith had left the game at that point in time when Daniel threw the hit and been still playing, I'm sure you'd be asking for Daniel's head on a platter. I look at Keith and would easily say he's your top 2 guy on your back end.

3.) If your brother took a shot to the head, you do what you can on the ice, but to say that Henrik was ineffective for the rest of the game is pretty meh. The game yesterday didn't really have any significant meaning to either team next to living up to the expectations of a great rivalry building. But of course, you'd turn a blind eye and say he did nothing...you don't like them as players I get that. In our eyes, it was the first time we have seen any sort of emotion from him in terms of the rough stuff and it was refreshing to see. Sure you might find it much of a joke but quite frankly, they would take punches to the head and not do anything about it but for him to get in scrums was a step in the right direction.

Finally, I don't buy this crap of you thinking the organization using the fanbase as pawns. Don't let the fanbase on boards depict the fanbase. They're generally speaking 15 year olds who want to win now when I know it's the hardest championship to win in professional sports period. Sure you could say it's jealousy of success, or you could call it a great rivalry that's developed the past 4 years. You say it's hatred, I say it's passion and great for the game. Unless you generally want to develop a rivalry with say the Predators? By all means, if you like watching paint dry I'm all for it.

Shame that you see it differently. By your theory, every team's fanbase has fans that are being played like 'pawns'. It's how society works. I'm sure you Hawks fans have fans who believe there are missed calls etc etc. Not every fanbase is perfection.

I could easily say the American Gov't is playing the American people like pawns (which they really are in my opinion) but then again that's another discussion. Exhibit 1 on how the politics are playing people like pawns...



We could keep on going about this whole pawn talk or we could keep on going. Anyways...
I loved that video.

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Old
03-23-2012, 10:41 AM
  #85
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Again I state--that Sediun's intentional high shoulder to Keith's head was JUST AS "MALICIOUS"---there is no difference in the WORSENESS except for consequences--KEITH survived the Sedin head shot to play on---Sedin did not (it appears could be our 2 weeks) --apparently the NHL does differentiate on CONSEQUENCES not the acts themselves....IF we assign equal value to each head shot ACT but weight the shot on SEDIN as "WORSE"/"MORE MALICIOUS" only because he was not lucky enough to survive it whereas Keith was--then I suppose IF the CONSEQUENCES were reveresed (and a reversal of the hit sequence) such that KEITH high shouldered a head shot on SEDIN but MIRACULOUSLY SEDIN survived to play on,THEN SEDIN tracks down and elbows KEITH in the head 2 while he doesn't have the puck and is vulnerable -BUT now KEITH goes out for 2 weeks concussed --I suuose on CONSEQUENCES (the good or bad luck of surviving a head shotoor not) the NHL would punish SEDIN more because THE CONSEQUENCES were worse --not the acts themselves which were equally heinous and COULD have had the exact opposite consequences.



You could argue that as in criminal law the consequences matter most for the punishment -intent to kill but the victim surviving as opposed to intent to kill and murder results--obviously 2 different severities of sentencing...


HOWEVER --- -is there the same good or bad luck in CINCUSSIONS as their is if a bullit hits you in the chest? Perhaps --but if LUCK with attemped concussive blows to the head -if only CONSEQUENCES differentiate the severity of punishment ---I argue that the DETERRENCE factor is DE-VALUED ..on the other hand if the act itself is given EQUALITY of PUNISHMENT specifically for deterrence-MAYBE SEDIN never would have tried his shoulder ramming into Keith's head --MAYBE KEITH never retaliates because SEdin never tries RISKING such an act...

THUS if KEITH gets 5 or more games and SEDIN only 1or2 because SHANAHAN buys into the CONSEQUENCES determinant as of most value ---NOT 2 equally heinous acts the league wish to DETERR --then guys WILL RISK such acts because they believe it won't COST MUCH in games off if the VICTIM survives the blow...There are lots of intentional hits to the head in a nhl season --nOT everyone has concussive consequences for injury time off -so guys WILL RISK the worth of doing it to intimidate--SEDIN or some other VAN player will do this heinous act again..


SO I say -IF the NHL really wants deterrence it SHOULD give KEITH 5 games or more-BUT ALSO give the same to SEDIN...
Otherwise they will fail the deterrence test. SHANHAN is probably too stupid to understand this ..
(If somebody knows his e-mail address I give you permission to send this argument to him). KEITH deserves full maximum punishment -but SO DOES SEDIN--there is no difference in WORSENESS of the ACTS only in the consequences which relies on pure LUCK as to whether the vivtin can play on or not...

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03-23-2012, 10:51 AM
  #86
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I'm gonna guess 5. Should please both sides.

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03-23-2012, 11:03 AM
  #87
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If Keith gets more then 5 games I question the league. 5 games for a first time offender is about as big as it comes and is deserved by Keith it was a reckless stupid play. However if he gets 5-7 games which is what Sutton got for doing a repeat offense in the same season then I start to thing the league has more then just a player safety agenda.

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03-23-2012, 11:04 AM
  #88
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Sweet. I really enjoy what Vancouver fans have to say about this issue on our board, considering most all over HF have been very unreasonable. If he gets over or under 3-5 games, Shanahan is wrong.

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03-23-2012, 11:06 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post
Again I state--that Sediun's intentional high shoulder to Keith's head was JUST AS "MALICIOUS"---there is no difference in the WORSENESS except for consequences--KEITH survived the Sedin head shot to play on---Sedin did not (it appears could be our 2 weeks) --apparently the NHL does differentiate on CONSEQUENCES not the acts themselves....IF we assign equal value to each head shot ACT but weight the shot on SEDIN as "WORSE"/"MORE MALICIOUS" only because he was not lucky enough to survive it whereas Keith was--then I suppose IF the CONSEQUENCES were reveresed (and a reversal of the hit sequence) such that KEITH high shouldered a head shot on SEDIN but MIRACULOUSLY SEDIN survived to play on,THEN SEDIN tracks down and elbows KEITH in the head 2 while he doesn't have the puck and is vulnerable -BUT now KEITH goes out for 2 weeks concussed --I suuose on CONSEQUENCES (the good or bad luck of surviving a head shotoor not) the NHL would punish SEDIN more because THE CONSEQUENCES were worse --not the acts themselves which were equally heinous and COULD have had the exact opposite consequences.



You could argue that as in criminal law the consequences matter most for the punishment -intent to kill but the victim surviving as opposed to intent to kill and murder results--obviously 2 different severities of sentencing...


HOWEVER --- -is there the same good or bad luck in CINCUSSIONS as their is if a bullit hits you in the chest? Perhaps --but if LUCK with attemped concussive blows to the head -if only CONSEQUENCES differentiate the severity of punishment ---I argue that the DETERRENCE factor is DE-VALUED ..on the other hand if the act itself is given EQUALITY of PUNISHMENT specifically for deterrence-MAYBE SEDIN never would have tried his shoulder ramming into Keith's head --MAYBE KEITH never retaliates because SEdin never tries RISKING such an act...

THUS if KEITH gets 5 or more games and SEDIN only 1or2 because SHANAHAN buys into the CONSEQUENCES determinant as of most value ---NOT 2 equally heinous acts the league wish to DETERR --then guys WILL RISK such acts because they believe it won't COST MUCH in games off if the VICTIM survives the blow...There are lots of intentional hits to the head in a nhl season --nOT everyone has concussive consequences for injury time off -so guys WILL RISK the worth of doing it to intimidate--SEDIN or some other VAN player will do this heinous act again..


SO I say -IF the NHL really wants deterrence it SHOULD give KEITH 5 games or more-BUT ALSO give the same to SEDIN...
Otherwise they will fail the deterrence test. SHANHAN is probably too stupid to understand this ..
(If somebody knows his e-mail address I give you permission to send this argument to him). KEITH deserves full maximum punishment -but SO DOES SEDIN--there is no difference in WORSENESS of the ACTS only in the consequences which relies on pure LUCK as to whether the vivtin can play on or not...
The puck was 10 feet away Sedin and in the AIR when the elbow came up. The hit was late and high on Keith. Had Keith been hurt on the play Sedin would get 3. Maybe 4. The point isn't just the hit, the point is that there seems there is more of an intent to injure due to having the hit already have taken place.

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03-23-2012, 11:07 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kassian Train View Post
The puck was 10 feet away Sedin and in the AIR when the elbow came up. The hit was late and high on Keith. Had Keith been hurt on the play Sedin would get 3. Maybe 4. The point isn't just the hit, the point is that there seems there is more of an intent to injure due to having the hit already have taken place.
The same can be said for the Sedin hit.

I do think Keith's hit was worse but the hit by Sedin was not without intent.

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03-23-2012, 11:08 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
If Keith gets more then 5 games I question the league. 5 games for a first time offender is about as big as it comes and is deserved by Keith it was a reckless stupid play. However if he gets 5-7 games which is what Sutton got for doing a repeat offense in the same season then I start to thing the league has more then just a player safety agenda.
Like I said earlier, only 3 players have got more than 5 games this year and all were repeat offenders, Wisnieski, Carcillo, and Sutton. It would be astonishing if Keith got 7 or 8 games like those guys got for their 2nd and sometimes 3rd suspension in 12 months.

Only 5 players got 5 games this season and all of them sans Brendan Smith were repeat offenders (Sutton, Marchand, Borque, Shelly).

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03-23-2012, 11:09 AM
  #92
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I think he gets the rest of the regular season plus the 1st 2 playoff games. Let's be real hear, he basically tried to decapitate Sedin.

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03-23-2012, 11:10 AM
  #93
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I guess Shanahan is confused on words--PREDATORY/PRE-MEDITATED means an element of planned tracking down the "VICTIM" to deliver the blow.....EXACTLY wass SEDIN did to KEITH too! Therefore if PRE-MEDITATED/PREDATORY /HUNTING DOWN a VICTIM is the most important criteria for extra punishment--SHANAHAN ought to be FAIR and provide EQUAL JUSTICE...

Instead he seems to be VALUING "RETALIATORY PREDATORS" as "WORSE" than
ORIGINAL FIRST PREDATORS --this is 100% WRONG --nor as I have STATED is the CONSEQUENCES of the illegal hit to the head as dtermining EXTRA punishment right either...


SHANAHAN should instead be providing JUSTICE bades solely on the illegality of the head shots themselves ---CONSEQUENCES (survival to play on --or not--are the luck or lack of of the draw)...KEITH just as easily COULD have been concussed on Sedin's blow to his head---THAT and only that--THE ILLEGAL ACT --should be the focus of EQUAL PUNISHMENT --not using BAD LUCK or RETALIATION as the main focus od degree of "worseness" in comparing the 2 hits --BOTH were equally heinous--BOTH should get punished the SAME from equal 1st time offenders...TO make a special case against Keith solely on consequences and bad results AFTER the hit --is NEVER going to bring deterrence--guys will risk the chance that like sEDIN-they MAY get away with it IF they: i) do it first and not 2nd in sequence and ii) get lucky and their VICTIM survives to play on (albeit now intimidated into pussiness)...WE cannot afford Shanahan giving unequal punishments here-it wiljust lead to more confusions as similar events transpire... LET ME BE FIRST TO TRY IT-I MAY GET AWAY WITH IT!

(OK it will dtere retaliation-but it promotes 1st instigation head shots). THIS is the bad logic about making a far greater "example" out of Keith than the lightly punished
no harm /no foul SEDIN. YOU watch --making an example of retaliation wilnot stop head shot INSTIGATIONS!

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03-23-2012, 11:10 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
The same can be said for the Sedin hit.

I do think Keith's hit was worse but the hit by Sedin was not without intent.
However, there was more of matter of "revenge" that Shanahan will consider.

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03-23-2012, 11:12 AM
  #95
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I bet he gets 4 or 5 games and is on close watch from now on, especially if we see those hair-pulling, love-tapping, diving, whiny, choking Canucks sometime in the postseason.

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03-23-2012, 11:12 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by The Kassian Train View Post
However, there was more of matter of "revenge" that Shanahan will consider.
Don't think that is a criteria, its intentional or reactionary hit like he said regarding Marchand's hit on Salo.

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03-23-2012, 11:12 AM
  #97
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So what exactly are you expecting on a Blackhawks board? I mean really...it is amazing the nucks come here 'in peace' and expect agreement on all subjects nucks. Just leave already. Christ it gets ****ing old.
I'm expecting a discussion with substance that I'm clearly having here with quite a few Hawks fans. So I think I'll stay.

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03-23-2012, 11:16 AM
  #98
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Just give them both 5 games and call it a day. This doesn't need to be overly complicated.

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03-23-2012, 11:16 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by The Kassian Train View Post
However, there was more of matter of "revenge" that Shanahan will consider.
There is revenge in everything in hockey. How many times does a guy who threw a bad hit get taken out later in a game. If your punishing revenge then Bieksa should get games for punching Keith in the face later in the game.

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03-23-2012, 11:16 AM
  #100
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Keith waived his right to an in person hearing, will take place over the phone at 1 cst today.

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