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University/College Questions Part III (incl. protest discussion)

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Old
03-23-2012, 01:52 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
too bad it's not as simplistic as this... otherwise we'd be all at 15% income tax, puffin freely and waiting 5 minutes at the emergency.

what's even better is that many use Scandinavian ''free education'' yet forget to leave out their incredibly high taxes.

instead of crying ''we want cheap education'', why not protest and say ''we want cheap education and we're ready to sacrifice X, Y and Z''
It's not like the government is leaving any place for negotiation.

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03-23-2012, 01:54 AM
  #27
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It's not like the government is leaving any place for negotiation.
They gave in every other time students protested the hike...

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03-23-2012, 02:00 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
too bad it's not as simplistic as this... otherwise we'd be all at 15% income tax, puffin freely and waiting 5 minutes at the emergency.

what's even better is that many use Scandinavian ''free education'' yet forget to leave out their incredibly high taxes.

instead of crying ''we want cheap education'', why not protest and say ''we want cheap education and we're ready to sacrifice X, Y and Z''
I'm not quite sure what you mean on your first statement. I meant that the % of funds that is currently allocated to universities, that will be removed in 5 years due to the tuition raise, will go towards programs that are not so socially inclined such as healthcare, education and infrastructure.

Secondly, I think many will consider our taxes incredibly high, given the services we are provided in return. Can't turn a corner in Montreal without a hubcap falling off or having to spend a fort-night to visit the medicine man.

Also, this is not a question of sacrifice for a student. A student is a baby zebra in a Saharan desert. He has nothing to sacrifice. As a tax paying adult, recognize that a student may not have the money to pay for his tuition. However, if, we as a society, allow our taxes to go towards his education instead of some stupid governmental programs that will corruptively yield profits to private corporations, he will pay it back many times over with his new-found degree. Think of it as an investment that we will all cash out on. There is no sacrifice needed. I think most of the protesters see the problem as a mis-management of funds rather than an "entitlement" issue that we have to sacrifice on.

There is something definitely dirty going on and with the Harper government, you can't be surprised with that at all.

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03-23-2012, 02:02 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by WeeBey View Post
Do you think royalties and tax cuts are handed out for ***** and giggles? Like Charest and his buddies are throwing all the cash in a dollar shaped pool?

Unfortunately, we're at the mercy of corporations, especially in Quebec. If they don't get the tax cuts, that means less revenue for the executives. How do you think they'll react to that? They'll either lay-off employees, or pack up and move elsewhere. Either way, it ends up with people losing their jobs.

I don't know why people think Charest would go through with all these wildly unpopular ideas if there wasn't a reason.

I will agree with the tax brackets though...
I know it can't be that simple for the corporate tax rates, but asking the students to make their "fair share" when corporations keep getting more and more tax cuts is insulting.

Seeing ex-minister of natural ressources Nathalie Normandeau get a job in a financial advising firm to give all her governmental information to her clients, which include mining companies getting government contracts for the Plan Nord is simply revolting.

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03-23-2012, 02:14 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
We all knew it was the case when we voted for the strike and we're assuming it for a cause we think is worth it. Stop infantilizing us we made concious choices and we are aware of the consequences.



You forget that we're also asking for higher mining royalties (I can't believe I have to keep reminding people that our exploration mining royalties are 30 000% lower than BC's), higher corporate tax rates ( we have one of the lowest corporate tax rates in North America ) and 10 levels of tax rates for workers instead of 3, which lightens the fiscal weight on middle class.
You dont want to be "infantilized" ? fine... get out of your little bubble and come back to reality.

cause right now all I see is studies and theories, and while some of them are 100% right, it doesnt change simple facts (that any adult who is used to pay taxes, had already voted a few times in their lives, etc know)...

- this Govt will not work their a** off to find new ways to finance cegep and universities.
- the increase in costs will have to be paid by either the students themselves or the tax payers
(again, in case you didnt get it at first, this Govt will NOT work their a** off to find new $)
- your refusal to pay the increase in costs means you are OK with the tax payers paying more for YOUR future.
(So, you arent interested either in working your a** off to pay for the increase or find new $)
- the only thing you're asking is not to pay more.
(dropping your consequences on tax-payers shoulders)
- the best thing students could find when it comes to the tax-payers not having access to the bridges was "it's not me, there's nothing I can do about it".

So please, spare me your crap about royalties, Scandinavian countries, Ilot Voyageur and whatnot... cause reality is, this Govt will not copy other countries edu system and will not increase mining royalties for this.

(If you dont get what I'm saying, ask Mom and Dad when's the last time they voted for an honest and caring politician...)


I can even predict this particular Govt to use this particular issue and play their cards in a way to gain popularity among tax payers / voters...

So please do this voter, who also happen to pay taxes - some of them being used to get you a diploma, a favor and dont contribute to Charests re-election.

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Old
03-23-2012, 02:18 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
too bad it's not as simplistic as this... otherwise we'd be all at 15% income tax, puffin freely and waiting 5 minutes at the emergency.

what's even better is that many use Scandinavian ''free education'' yet forget to leave out their incredibly high taxes.

instead of crying ''we want cheap education'', why not protest and say ''we want cheap education and we're ready to sacrifice X, Y and Z''
Of course it's not simplistic when our government is pretty much ran by corporations. Just today I've read about how (in the USA that is) 98% of the Congress received monetary ''donations'' in the past year from big companies which resulted in the passing of the new GOP financial plan that has hidden tax loopholes in it that will allow the companies to exploit and make more profits than ever through technically illegal tax evasion (''technically'' because they won't of course be prosecuted). Once again, that is in the USA, but Canada's in the same boat. My point is that when this type of activity is so omnipresent within the politics, the government stops representing the people and starts serving corporate interest instead. So while the rich class keep enjoying their ever-rising salaries and constant tax cuts, the middle-class keeps making its discontentment heard through protests, etc. It's not hard to see whose interests the State takes care of as you look at this portrait. As long as there will be money and big-time lobbying in the politics, the working class will keep getting screwed over, which is just another reason to hit the streets in conclusion.


Last edited by kassian: 03-23-2012 at 02:33 AM.
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03-23-2012, 02:50 AM
  #32
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ECWHSWI: Our support from the population is growing (49%), the PQ which proposes discussion tables with student associations and lower hikes is dominating the polls, it all seems pretty concrete to me.

Oh and the PQ is also proposing this "raising the mining royalties to get billions more" crap.

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03-23-2012, 03:05 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
what do you mean it's the Govt that would fail ? last I've known, they didnt force you to miss any classes or exam... you have classes, wether you attend or not is YOUR decision.

YOU succeed or YOU fail. At least, that's the way adults usually see things.


Please stop acting like you are the bearer of truth in a world of ignorance. Perhaps saying the government wasn't the right way to put it, but you know exactly what I meant. If you are on strike, there are no exams, no classes. You cannot be failed for not showing up to things that are not happening.

And tax-payer this, tax-payer that. We are all tax payers. We will all be tax payers. You think students are so shortsighted that they don't understand that they will also be paying for the future generations' education? Please get off your high horse. Students don't have lobbyists who can invite Charest or Beauchamp at Paul Desmarais' cottage for the weekend to relax and discuss about what's best for their *****. We don't have a choice but to do what we do the way we do it. Or do you think we shouldn't have the right to be heard?

You wanna find money? Look at Plan Nord, look at Anticosti's oil reserves, look at mining in the North. But these don't fit your agenda, and therefore aren't valuable options. Sure, Charest won't look for money elsewhere, but the next elected government might. And if this strike keeps on, best believe elections are gonna come sooner than later. I wonder, in your adult world, how this whole debate will effect political agendas. Since you are so well-versed and obviously of higher knowledge, please do inform me.

Charest's government isn't the only option. And it's not like Charest's popularity is anything to write about either.

I'd also like to add that I'm not against the idea of a moderate, longer-term hike that would follow inflation rates if it is proved that there is a need for it. However, we should not be stuck to pay a 75% increase because the government has been mismanaging the education sector for the past 50 years. There's no accountability, it's terrible.


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Old
03-23-2012, 04:32 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Turtleneck Plek View Post
Please stop acting like you are the bearer of truth in a world of ignorance. Perhaps saying the government wasn't the right way to put it, but you know exactly what I meant. If you are on strike, there are no exams, no classes. You cannot be failed for not showing up to things that are not happening.

And tax-payer this, tax-payer that. We are all tax payers. We will all be tax payers. You think students are so shortsighted that they don't understand that they will also be paying for the future generations' education? Please get off your high horse. Students don't have lobbyists who can invite Charest or Beauchamp at Paul Desmarais' cottage for the weekend to relax and discuss about what's best for their *****. We don't have a choice but to do what we do the way we do it. Or do you think we shouldn't have the right to be heard?

You wanna find money? Look at Plan Nord, look at Anticosti's oil reserves, look at mining in the North. But these don't fit your agenda, and therefore aren't valuable options. Sure, Charest won't look for money elsewhere, but the next elected government might. And if this strike keeps on, best believe elections are gonna come sooner than later. I wonder, in your adult world, how this whole debate will effect political agendas. Since you are so well-versed and obviously of higher knowledge, please do inform me.

Charest's government isn't the only option. And it's not like Charest's popularity is anything to write about either.

I'd also like to add that I'm not against the idea of a moderate, longer-term hike that would follow inflation rates if it is proved that there is a need for it. However, we should not be stuck to pay a 75% increase because the government has been mismanaging the education sector for the past 50 years. There's no accountability, it's terrible.
huh... what agenda ? last I know, I'm not the one "fighting" for anything, I'm not the one on "strike" here.


Actually, you do have a choice, while it may seems that you dont, you always do... sometimes its between bad and worst... but hey, you had that choice and YOU made the decision !

And you sure have the right to voice your opinion on anything you think is important to you... this particular time, you just felt like talking about money, asking the Govt to backoff on a raise while the tax payers (you know, the ones who work full time) get zlitch and while they read/hear on a daily basis their tax-$ is going nowhere it should, or at least it looks that way... and at the end of the day, you're going on strike to save a few $. Nothing more, nothing less.


True, Charest isnt very popular, and is far from a good PM... but his only true opponents are Marois and Legault (to a lesser extent)... Marois and Legeault really, think about it for a sec.



And lastly, no I dont think I know better... considering I've finished high school close to 30 years ago you'd have to be a fu****g dumb student not to know more than me on this particular subject (costs and all)

but what I'm smart enough to get, is that despite all the PLQ moves, someone like Marois never came close to become a PM, she doesnt have what it takes, so to speak... so yeah, she may look like the right person (from a student POV), but we should fear the possibility of her being our PM.

and I'm also experienced (sound better than "old" ) enough to know that most promises made during of before campain well... well...

and (again) experienced enough to picture the "minds" behind the PLQ looking at every angles and thinking of every possible way to use this to their advantage the day they heard about a possible strike.

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Old
03-23-2012, 04:42 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
ECWHSWI: Our support from the population is growing (49%), the PQ which proposes discussion tables with student associations and lower hikes is dominating the polls, it all seems pretty concrete to me.

Oh and the PQ is also proposing this "raising the mining royalties to get billions more" crap.
Si elle prend le pouvoir, Mme Marois promet d'abolir la hausse de 1625$ du gouvernement Charest mais elle n'exclut pas de la remplacer par une autre moins grande. Elle organiserait un sommet et prendrait position par la suite seulement.

that's the PQ you're talking about ?

(taken on Cyberpresse for what it's worth)

or this one ?

La chef du PQ maintiendrait la hausse précédente, de 50$ par semestre de 2007 à 2012. Elle abolirait la nouvelle hausse du gouvernement, de 1625$, répartie sur cinq ans. Par la suite, elle organiserait un sommet avec «la communauté universitaire, les employeurs et la société civile» sur l'enseignement supérieur. C'est seulement après qu'elle prendrait position. «Nous établirons un mode de financement acceptable pour tous les partis concernés, y compris, bien sûr, les contribuables», a-t-elle indiqué.

Mme Marois n'a pas voulu préciser ce que serait une hausse acceptable. Elle ne veut pas dire non plus si elle est en faveur de l'indexation. «Je ne statuerai pas sur [cela]. C'est justement ce que nous voudrions pouvoir discuter à un forum: s'il y a lieu qu'il y ait une hausse, et de quel ordre», a-t-elle répondu.


or maybe Marois, our next PM...

Lorsqu'elle était ministre de l'Éducation en 1996, Mme Marois avait songé au dégel, avant de reculer. Elle s'y était opposée en 2002, puis y était favorable à la course à la direction du PQ en 2007.



be careful what you wish for my friend, be very careful...

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Old
03-23-2012, 05:42 AM
  #36
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The Habs players must be thinking,

"WTF? $325 a year increase? That's not even enough for diner at Le Cheval Blanc!"

With excellent wine, of course.

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Old
03-23-2012, 07:03 AM
  #37
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I don't know why a student would go on strike alone if his student association voted against the strike... For those of us who are on strike no classes are given and the semester will end later with longer classes. And 40 years ago the student boomers were in the streets every week and striking a lot, but the classes they missed didn't prevent them form getting good jobs after.


On another subject great protest today, I was amazed by the massive number of protesters. I was hoping for 60 000 maybe but 200 000, what a huge collective "UP YOURS CHAREST" it was. Neoliberalism is finally being challenged publicly in Québec after years of political and social stagnation from the liberals.
Fair enough, but for those who's peers have showed up to class are ****ed. There is multiple faculties, a general election ruled in favour but when several other departments were questioned individually the majority of concordia said no to the strike. Also,(in my case) concordia is not extending the semester. They have said it at least 10 times. Finals start in 2 weeks, if you're not ready...there's only so much a teacher can do. He can give extensions on homework, he can drop assignments completely, but the final is the final. So...if you went on strike and then went to party at night, you'll be behind. A university can give students a chance, but if they just pass people who don't know their ****, the entire university looks like crap and your university degree won't be worth much. They may bend the rules a bit, but if students don't at least meet them halfway, it won't be pretty.


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03-23-2012, 07:54 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
ECWHSWI: Our support from the population is growing (49%), the PQ which proposes discussion tables with student associations and lower hikes is dominating the polls, it all seems pretty concrete to me.

Oh and the PQ is also proposing this "raising the mining royalties to get billions more" crap.
wait to the next attack vs normal populations.
that they block port of montreal is ok but blocking a bridges is more meh

Students associations dont want to negociate a raise
some of them wants a free education and others want a cancellation of the raise.

They talked to the 3 leaders of FEUQ FECQ and CLASSÉ on radio yesterday

The governement invited them to negociate a raise months ago but they refused to go.

When Martineau asked them if they'd accept a minor raise, they answered that universities has the money to pay.

Students associations do not want to negociate anything.

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03-23-2012, 09:00 AM
  #39
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While I understand the logic, you can't seriously expect those who missed tests and homeworks to be granted same mark as those who did it?

Hate to say it, but don't listen to your student association, they are moronic. Fact of the matter is, if you're the only guy in your class that skipped, well, odds are, you're ****ed for that class. If your entire class skipped, thats another story.

A university cannot just pass you 'just because'. It will literally mean that your education is a joke. At best your teacher, IF he wants to, will provide you an extension for homeworks and rework the grading. However...don't be naive, not every teacher will accept it and a lot of students will be unhappy.

For classes you have a final in(most i assume), expect the teacher's who aren't pro strike to bring up material from class to give an edge to those who attended.

Also, the problem with strike is people who werent ready for tests, quizzes and etc missed. A teacher is not stupid, a lot will skip to get extensions, not because of strike, they will not be blindly accepting.

As an example, a few summers ago, there was a conference at SGW, so my class, originally at H got rescheduled to LOY. In consequence, teacher panicked and removed multiple quizzes, and the midterm...leaving us with a 95% final. He wasn't easy on the final.
As far as the physics department of the University of Montreal is concerned, if we have the capability of picketing anywhere on campus at a moment's notice, while picketing our own courses as well, our professors know that they can't mess with us and will not cross the picket lines.

End result: entire classes skipped courses, each and every time, at all levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
When I see people interacting with others in this manner, it's one of the reasons why I think education should stay accessible to all
I find that most of the pro-hike people, while they may (or may not) initially be willing to use the real arguments, end up resorting to stereotypes and insults. I'd respect the pro-hikes more if they had more rigor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaDevilGirl View Post
I can't say if they are pro-hike but I'm sure many faculties voted against a long strike.
The total strength of the faculties that voted just one day of strike is about ~70-80,000 students.

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Old
03-23-2012, 09:27 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chewBACHa View Post
wait to the next attack vs normal populations.
that they block port of montreal is ok but blocking a bridges is more meh

Students associations dont want to negociate a raise
some of them wants a free education and others want a cancellation of the raise.
They talked to the 3 leaders of FEUQ FECQ and CLASSÉ on radio yesterday

The governement invited them to negociate a raise months ago but they refused to go.

When Martineau asked them if they'd accept a minor raise, they answered that universities has the money to pay.

Students associations do not want to negociate anything.
This is my main issue with students' protests
- some want free education à la Scandinavian countries
- some want status quo / tuition freeze
- some support a raise but would like the increase to be spread out over a longer period
- some simply want an open dialogue with the government
- some to be quite honest seem to bandwagon strickers

There is a divide within the protesters and I think they'll still be unhappy whatever the outcome.

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03-23-2012, 09:52 AM
  #41
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This is my main issue with students' protests
- some want free education à la Scandinavian countries
- some want status quo / tuition freeze
- some support a raise but would like the increase to be spread out over a longer period
- some simply want an open dialogue with the government
- some to be quite honest seem to bandwagon strickers

There is a divide within the protesters and I think they'll still be unhappy whatever the outcome.


1. That would mean that not only corporate, but personal tax rates, will need to increase ... up to 60%.... Putting the benefits of this aside, I'm sure the politicans will have no problems selling this to the public! And the fantasy that we can cut back from 1 tax expenditure and replace it with free education is just that - fantasy.

2. So like # 1, they must be in favor of increasing taxes or own some naive perception that the govt can easily find access to billions of dollars without sweat.

3. The most realistic of all arguments, but I'm sure the flag waving whistle blowing protesters are not singing this song. Even though, if such increases were taken into effect 40 years ago, tuition would have be even higher today than what it will be in 5 years from today.

4. What are they going to propose? Lemonade stands in metros? Raffles?

5. I'm willing to go out on the limb here and suggest it's ''most''. And they're behind the ***** of group 1 and 2. Basically, we want X and don't ask us how to get it, we're students, we're baby zebras in a jungle full of hungry lions.

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03-23-2012, 10:03 AM
  #42
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Of course it's not simplistic when our government is pretty much ran by corporations. Just today I've read about how (in the USA that is) 98% of the Congress received monetary ''donations'' in the past year from big companies which resulted in the passing of the new GOP financial plan that has hidden tax loopholes in it that will allow the companies to exploit and make more profits than ever through technically illegal tax evasion (''technically'' because they won't of course be prosecuted). Once again, that is in the USA, but Canada's in the same boat. My point is that when this type of activity is so omnipresent within the politics, the government stops representing the people and starts serving corporate interest instead. So while the rich class keep enjoying their ever-rising salaries and constant tax cuts, the middle-class keeps making its discontentment heard through protests, etc. It's not hard to see whose interests the State takes care of as you look at this portrait. As long as there will be money and big-time lobbying in the politics, the working class will keep getting screwed over, which is just another reason to hit the streets in conclusion.
This pretty much sums it up tbh.

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03-23-2012, 10:13 AM
  #43
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are we on the edge of a revolution to see so many talk around, new political group, attack between libertarian and socialist ... simply re we at war ? a war on topic of the good idea ? gosh so late 60,s are we isn't ?

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03-23-2012, 10:33 AM
  #44
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What if Gomez fixed the problem?

History will be made...

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Old
03-23-2012, 10:59 AM
  #45
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Students expect lower tuition, more grants and subsidies, lower cost of borrowing, lower income taxes, higher minimum wage, and legalization of pot.

did I miss anything?
Better future

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03-23-2012, 11:30 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Students expect lower tuition, more grants and subsidies, lower cost of borrowing, lower income taxes, higher minimum wage, and legalization of pot.

did I miss anything?

HAHAHAHA and then you are the one saying, two posts after, that "it's not that simplistic". Oh, the irony.

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Old
03-23-2012, 11:54 AM
  #47
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huh... what agenda ? last I know, I'm not the one "fighting" for anything, I'm not the one on "strike" here.


Actually, you do have a choice, while it may seems that you dont, you always do... sometimes its between bad and worst... but hey, you had that choice and YOU made the decision !

And you sure have the right to voice your opinion on anything you think is important to you... this particular time, you just felt like talking about money, asking the Govt to backoff on a raise while the tax payers (you know, the ones who work full time) get zlitch and while they read/hear on a daily basis their tax-$ is going nowhere it should, or at least it looks that way... and at the end of the day, you're going on strike to save a few $. Nothing more, nothing less.


True, Charest isnt very popular, and is far from a good PM... but his only true opponents are Marois and Legault (to a lesser extent)... Marois and Legeault really, think about it for a sec.



And lastly, no I dont think I know better... considering I've finished high school close to 30 years ago you'd have to be a fu****g dumb student not to know more than me on this particular subject (costs and all)

but what I'm smart enough to get, is that despite all the PLQ moves, someone like Marois never came close to become a PM, she doesnt have what it takes, so to speak... so yeah, she may look like the right person (from a student POV), but we should fear the possibility of her being our PM.

and I'm also experienced (sound better than "old" ) enough to know that most promises made during of before campain well... well...

and (again) experienced enough to picture the "minds" behind the PLQ looking at every angles and thinking of every possible way to use this to their advantage the day they heard about a possible strike.
This is better. I'll be very honest with you, there isn't one party that has my confidence right now. As much as Charest is incompetent, I don't have much love for Legault or Marois either. Once again, we're gonna be stuck voting for the lesser of three evils. As somebody who also holds French citizenship, it reminds me of voting for Chirac to make sure Le Pen wouldn't get a chance in the second round of the 2002 elections. Sometimes, you don't have a choice.

I'm also not naive enough to believe whatever promise made by Marois is made of gold. However, having somebody who is ready to have a dialogue is much better than a PM who is completely locked down on the subject. As I said, I would accept a gentler hike over more years if it is proved that we need it, and if it is thoroughly explained how the money will be spent. As it stands now, none of that has been done by the Charest government.

And of course, the PLQ will try to milk this with pro-hike people, aka tax-payers as you say. The thing is, students turn 18 every day, and with that gain the right to vote. I'd argue a lot of those students will be voting against the Charest government (unless they are in the MESRQ minority). Check this study (for what it's worth, I know you can get a study to say anything, but this one was conducted by very pro-PLQ La Presse):

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites...a-limpasse.php

Quote:
Ainsi, 60% des répondants âgés de 18 à 34 ans se prononcent contre la hausse des droits de scolarité alors qu'à l'inverse, 61% de ceux qui sont âgés de 55 ans et plus se montrent favorables à cette hausse.
Judging by your post, I'd guess you're apart of the 55+ group, or at least close to it. The older generation who sermons us about tax-payers, when soon enough, tax-payers will be paying for them as much as they are paying for students. I'm not necessarily talking about you, because I don't know your situation and it frankly does not matter, but still, the fact remains.

It's funny because it's also the generation who came down so heavy in the streets during the Quiet Revolution to stand for what they believed was right even though everybody else told them they were wrong. Now I no way am I comparing this current situation with the Quiet Revolution, but it's just to image the fact that Baby Boomers have very short and selective memories when it comes to social causes.

In the end, all we want is dialogue. You have a government with a big problem on its hands which is only going to get bigger as the situation grows, yet, they'd rather ignore us. I find that a lot of the students are stupid though, because they expect no changes at all, and even ask for completely free education. That's ridiculous. But at the very least, talk with us, hear us out and try to work on something that works for everybody. It won't happen with Charest at the helm, so we'll have to see what happens when a new government is elected, for better and for worse.

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03-23-2012, 11:59 AM
  #48
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Oh, hey guys.

This thread is not heading into politics. The strike is already pretty borderline for HF, so just keep it strictly to that.

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03-23-2012, 12:06 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Ceux de Montreal View Post
Better future
Everyone, always want a better future.

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03-23-2012, 12:27 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Everyone, always want a better future.
How come some people choose not to go to university if everyone wants a better future?

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