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What snipers should we seek BESIDES Parise?

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Old
03-21-2012, 08:03 AM
  #176
NYR Viper
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Originally Posted by wafflepadsave View Post
Leave all the homer responses out of this. Lets here what everybody thinks his worth is and what they could realisticly receive in return. it's hypothetical anyway.
If the Rangers move Staal, I want a player like Couture coming back.

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03-21-2012, 12:56 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Was actually MDZ trying to get the puck to Richards, but I hear you. No idea why he didn't shoot.
Okay, thanks. I knew I was close LOL!

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03-21-2012, 01:10 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Agree, especially as to bold and the underline seems more rule than exception.
However, let's be honest.
Girardi is a great defender. Like Rod Seiling, his shot from the point is lacking.

However, while I'd welcome a Shea Weber of course, we need a sniper first to improve our G production and not just a gifted D at the point. We need both, but let's get the offense rolling with one guy first.
I think there are enough blue collar players who can crash the net. Until that sniper comes along, I'd like to see them get more shots on the PP and try for rebounds.

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03-21-2012, 01:17 PM
  #179
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Wrong thread

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03-21-2012, 02:17 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
here's my new wet dream for the offseason:

Gaborik, Del Zotto, Anisimov, Thomas, McIlrath, 1st for Nash and the 1st overall.

Sign Suter to a 9 year deal at a 6.25 cap hit.

Hagelin Richards Nash
Kreider Stepan Yakupov
Dubinsky Miller Callahan or if Miller isn't ready Zuccarello Dubinsky Callahan
Rupp Boyle Prust
Mitchell

Staal Suter
McDonagh Girardi
Erixon Stralman/Sauer/cheap vet FA

Lundqvist
Johnson
Not a bad plan by any stretch of the imagination except for one minor change; you gotta replace McIIrath with someone else because Girardi's blood and guts style of play is not conducive to a long, healthy career and that's where McIIrath's value becomes so important to this franchise in the next few years.

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Old
03-23-2012, 09:47 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Only happens year-in/year-out in practially any sport. The romantic notions that you ahve are that somehow by depleting the defense and getting one player, we will somehow be able to win a run and gun game with the Pens.

Only every year, in practiacally every playoff series. Not always, but certainly more than enough times to be noticeable.

What is yoru reasonable basis? Being a man amongst boys amongst kids? So too was Kvasha.

Reasonable is not dismantling the team for an unproven kid.

When have we tried it af full strength and with players that take steps forward in their development?

What we need to do is not panic and allow for the kids to mature. And we do not need to start to recreate the wheel on what is working.
"Only happens year-in/year-out in practially any sport. The romantic notions that you ahve are that somehow by depleting the defense and getting one player, we will somehow be able to win a run and gun game with the Pens."

There is nothing romantic about it.
If we approx = Pens in firepower and are >>> otherwise, we will win. If not, it is a long, outside chance. The premise Hank can pitch a shutout or thereabouts every single game --- THAT is fantasy --- how romantic ... well, eye of the beholder, etc...

And I'd like at least one, and that one preferably be at least a Hall, Parise, etc. guy who will get us about 30 or more, another Gaborik, preferably a LW.
I made this thread with clearly, overture that if we traded for one more sniper (or additional) we could possibly be that much more appealing to Parise, Suter, etc who would only cost $$.


"Only every year, in practiacally every playoff series. Not always, but certainly more than enough times to be noticeable."
Not factually true, based on the reality that given enough time guys like Malkin, Ovechkin, etc., eventually break through. It may take as little as 10 shots or three times that; and those guys are what I call uber-elite, so a merely elite or excellent sniper may need more shots/opportunities. And that is not counting that other guys will also eventually break through, law of averages.
We cannot win games without scoring.
We need to move the right 1 or 2 players + assets for a top sniper.
This thread is to debate which sniper and at what cost.

"What is yoru reasonable basis? Being a man amongst boys amongst kids? So too was Kvasha."
I stand by one what I said: "Yes, you trade that promising player IF there is enough reasonable basis to expect a profitable reward; no risk, no reward, and reward is necessary for progress and not being stagnant."
Not sure how much clearer I can be as to reasonable, other than the price paid, while high and painful, is still worth doing the deal because of the return.
Feel free to elaborate 'Kvasha'

"Reasonable is not dismantling the team for an unproven kid."
trading one of Girardi or Staal and one of Stepan or MDZ is not gutting the team.
As to unproven, that would vary on the target.
The top pick Yakupov seems can't miss, and my favorite target, Hall, also a former top overall pick, has a good enough track record, IMO, to warrant that payment.

"When have we tried it af full strength and with players that take steps forward in their development?"
Anybody else, feel free to jump in here with games and dates and analysis.
We are better, we also have Hagelin, +.
Pens are also better, they have Neal +.
I expect if you push the issue, it will be demonstrated that, while subjective, there is enough basis to conclude that G and D alone cannot prevail continuosly vs Pens,


"What we need to do is not panic and allow for the kids to mature. And we do not need to start to recreate the wheel on what is working."
No one is saying panic.
I am asking the guys like you in a box to get real, get out of your box.
We do not to make improvements,
EVEN if that does get to a point of reinventing the wheel, because
what we have clearly is good, and clearly works,
but also even more clearly is certain to have problems, possibly insurmountable problems, against enough firepower.

Keep our top guys Kreider, JT Miller
Make a judicious trade even if one high quality piece (Stepan/MDZ) and one valued piece (Girardi) needs be surrendered.
Find that sniper.
Target the least amount to pay for him.
If we can afford it (it makes enough sense) we do it.

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03-23-2012, 11:03 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
There is nothing romantic about it.
If we approx = Pens in firepower and are >>> otherwise, we will win. If not, it is a long, outside chance. The premise Hank can pitch a shutout or thereabouts every single game --- THAT is fantasy --- how romantic ... well, eye of the beholder, etc...
Henke does not need to pitch a shutout for the Rangers to win. They can win with tight defense and solid goaltending. See Devils circa 90's on how that works.

One more player, is not going to get us to approximate teh Pens in fire power. Not even close. There is no such one player in the league that you can add now and would suddenly put us on equal footing with them, for offense.
Quote:
And I'd like at least one, and that one preferably be at least a Hall, Parise, etc. guy who will get us about 30 or more, another Gaborik, preferably a LW.
I made this thread with clearly, overture that if we traded for one more sniper (or additional) we could possibly be that much more appealing to Parise, Suter, etc who would only cost $$.
Those cost money and this team will not be able to resign the necessary players in two years.
Quote:
Not factually true, based on the reality that given enough time guys like Malkin, Ovechkin, etc., eventually break through. It may take as little as 10 shots or three times that; and those guys are what I call uber-elite, so a merely elite or excellent sniper may need more shots/opportunities. And that is not counting that other guys will also eventually break through, law of averages.
These guys do not always break through. Plenty of players have been rendered a non factor on a playoff scoring sheet for entire series.
Quote:
We cannot win games without scoring.
We need to move the right 1 or 2 players + assets for a top sniper.
This thread is to debate which sniper and at what cost.
No, eventually a puck has to go in. But a team need not be an elite offense to win. That is sheer nonsense. One more sniper will not equate this team to teh Pens and your cost will decrease what they are good in. So all in all, the team will get worse in all areas.
Quote:
I stand by one what I said: "Yes, you trade that promising player IF there is enough reasonable basis to expect a profitable reward; no risk, no reward, and reward is necessary for progress and not being stagnant."
Not sure how much clearer I can be as to reasonable, other than the price paid, while high and painful, is still worth doing the deal because of the return.
You have yet to tell me what thsi reasonable basis is. Other than being a man amongst boys.
Quote:
Feel free to elaborate 'Kvasha'
Want to make it Olsez instead? Or Brian Lawton? Or Daigle?
Quote:
trading one of Girardi or Staal and one of Stepan or MDZ is not gutting the team.
Trading one or two your top 3 defenseman is dismantling the defense. Sub in your very promising 2nd line center and you are now weak up the middle. All for someone who has not proven a blessed thing.
Quote:
As to unproven, that would vary on the target.
The top pick Yakupov seems can't miss, and my favorite target, Hall, also a former top overall pick, has a good enough track record, IMO, to warrant that payment.
SEEMS can't miss. There have been many prospects that SEEMED like they are "can't miss". And then they turned out to be busts. Giving up 2 of your top 3 defensemen for Hall is ludicrous.
Quote:
I expect if you push the issue, it will be demonstrated that, while subjective, there is enough basis to conclude that G and D alone cannot prevail continuosly vs Pens,
There is no basis to say that excellent goaltending and defense cannot beat a mighty offense.
Quote:
We do not to make improvements,
EVEN if that does get to a point of reinventing the wheel, because
what we have clearly is good, and clearly works,
but also even more clearly is certain to have problems, possibly insurmountable problems, against enough firepower.
There is no such thing as insurmountable firepower. If there was, teh team with the big offense would always be champions.
Quote:
Make a judicious trade even if one high quality piece (Stepan/MDZ) and one valued piece (Girardi) needs be surrendered.
Find that sniper.
You do not need to give up those players to be successful.

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03-23-2012, 11:53 AM
  #183
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Would anybody consider trading for Ryane Clowe? Especially if the Sharks don't make the playoffs.

Big Top 6 winger. He's not gonna set the world of fire, but he's a solid player who steps up in the playoffs.

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03-23-2012, 12:08 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by SomebodySaveKreider View Post
Would anybody consider trading for Ryane Clowe? Especially if the Sharks don't make the playoffs.

Big Top 6 winger. He's not gonna set the world of fire, but he's a solid player who steps up in the playoffs.
Yes, if the price is not ridiculous.

However, while Clowe would be useful cog, and I would also appreciate more suggestions here as to Clowe even though he is not a sniper, my thinking was more about guys like Radulov, especially since he has returned, even though he is RW and right now we are more tight at LW.

Again, anybody want to speculate on what Radulov would cost from Nashville? Assume best case scenario, they give us permission to negotiate 3-4 year extension, which kicks in after the trade.

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03-23-2012, 12:09 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Henke does not need to pitch a shutout for the Rangers to win. They can win with tight defense and solid goaltending. See Devils circa 90's on how that works.

One more player, is not going to get us to approximate teh Pens in fire power. Not even close. There is no such one player in the league that you can add now and would suddenly put us on equal footing with them, for offense.

Those cost money and this team will not be able to resign the necessary players in two years.

These guys do not always break through. Plenty of players have been rendered a non factor on a playoff scoring sheet for entire series.

No, eventually a puck has to go in. But a team need not be an elite offense to win. That is sheer nonsense. One more sniper will not equate this team to teh Pens and your cost will decrease what they are good in. So all in all, the team will get worse in all areas.

You have yet to tell me what thsi reasonable basis is. Other than being a man amongst boys.

Want to make it Olsez instead? Or Brian Lawton? Or Daigle?

Trading one or two your top 3 defenseman is dismantling the defense. Sub in your very promising 2nd line center and you are now weak up the middle. All for someone who has not proven a blessed thing.

SEEMS can't miss. There have been many prospects that SEEMED like they are "can't miss". And then they turned out to be busts. Giving up 2 of your top 3 defensemen for Hall is ludicrous.

There is no basis to say that excellent goaltending and defense cannot beat a mighty offense.

There is no such thing as insurmountable firepower. If there was, teh team with the big offense would always be champions.

You do not need to give up those players to be successful.
Most reason I've seen on the boards. We are a shut down team like the late 90's early 2000's Devils. We will not be able to match the Pens firepower, and how can we? They have the 2 best players in the league. Trading any of our top demen does't make sense. Signing huge contracts that cripple this organizations ability to sign key guys in the next 2 years will cripple the team. This team can and will win cups if we build around what we have through the draft and through our prospects. We can win the cup this year. This team is just as good as the Devils team that won it in 1999-2000. Next year we will might add Kreider and get Erixon into the mix. If Kreider turns out to be a 30/30 guy than we have yet another scoring threat with good defensive skills. Erixon has the potential to be Zubov-esq (not saying he'll be as good but he's the same type of player). This team if kept together will be GREAT for years to come. No need to sign huge contracts that cripple it or make these huge trades. However, Sather has proven time and time again that he likes to make these big moves and it'll probably happen to the applause of everyone here. Then when Nash or Parise come in and only score 50-60 points after either trading the farm or giving them a crippling contract you will all say how big of a mistake it was. Free agency is not the way to go. Let's go back to the Esposito trade. Had the Rangers kept that team together and not gone after Esposito, we would probably be sitting on 2 more cups right now.

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03-23-2012, 12:11 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Yes, if the price is not ridiculous.

However, while Clowe would be useful cog, and I would also appreciate more suggestions here as to Clowe even though he is not a sniper, my thinking was more about guys like Radulov, especially since he has returned, even though he is RW and right now we are more tight at LW.

Again, anybody want to speculate on what Radulov would cost from Nashville? Assume best case scenario, they give us permission to negotiate 3-4 year extension, which kicks in after the trade.
Not bad here. I feel like Radulov will cost a big amount though. Im almost all for the clowe thing

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03-23-2012, 12:16 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by SomebodySaveKreider View Post
Would anybody consider trading for Ryane Clowe? Especially if the Sharks don't make the playoffs.

Big Top 6 winger. He's not gonna set the world of fire, but he's a solid player who steps up in the playoffs.
I like Clowe but like you say, is he gonna set the world on fire?

As far as trades or UFA signings to improve this team. I want to see what happens here on out this season. Is this team for real during the playoffs. At times they look legit and at other times maybe not so much. Maybe we could say that about a lot of good teams.....

I like Parise. He's a top 6, he's a proven scorer and his style and hustle fit the character of this Team probably better than any other known available player. He is going to expensive.

I like Rick Nash. He is also expensive. He's also generally a 60 pt player, granted an perennial sub par team.... Still I know I'm not the only one with a gut check hesitation giving a 60 pt guy that fat contract... Drury and Gomez have left me wary....

I doubt Bobby Ryan is available....

Maybe something shakes out at the draft table or July 1st we don't know about, but I'm growing more comfortable with our homegrown path and waiting on Krieder. Maybe MZA is making the transition to the NHL.... That's two potential top 6 players right there.

Patience is hard.... I love this team.

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Old
03-23-2012, 12:24 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Henke does not need to pitch a shutout for the Rangers to win. They can win with tight defense and solid goaltending. See Devils circa 90's on how that works.

One more player, is not going to get us to approximate teh Pens in fire power. Not even close. There is no such one player in the league that you can add now and would suddenly put us on equal footing with them, for offense.

Those cost money and this team will not be able to resign the necessary players in two years.

These guys do not always break through. Plenty of players have been rendered a non factor on a playoff scoring sheet for entire series.

No, eventually a puck has to go in. But a team need not be an elite offense to win. That is sheer nonsense. One more sniper will not equate this team to teh Pens and your cost will decrease what they are good in. So all in all, the team will get worse in all areas.

You have yet to tell me what thsi reasonable basis is. Other than being a man amongst boys.

Want to make it Olsez instead? Or Brian Lawton? Or Daigle?

Trading one or two your top 3 defenseman is dismantling the defense. Sub in your very promising 2nd line center and you are now weak up the middle. All for someone who has not proven a blessed thing.

SEEMS can't miss. There have been many prospects that SEEMED like they are "can't miss". And then they turned out to be busts. Giving up 2 of your top 3 defensemen for Hall is ludicrous.

There is no basis to say that excellent goaltending and defense cannot beat a mighty offense.

There is no such thing as insurmountable firepower. If there was, teh team with the big offense would always be champions.

You do not need to give up those players to be successful.
"Henke does not need to pitch a shutout for the Rangers to win. They can win with tight defense and solid goaltending. See Devils circa 90's on how that works."
Great hitting prevails when great pitching ultimately tires.
Same is true here.
Still putting too much on 1 guy, your G.
We don't have same mobile D QB like Scott Neidermayer.
So even more need to have a sniper.
Also that is a different style D which did not wear out as much as NYR, where there are more blocked shots, etc, IMO.
In any event, Pens firepower today is too much for either team, so must diminish this edge. There is no alternative.

"One more player, is not going to get us to approximate teh Pens in fire power. Not even close. There is no such one player in the league that you can add now and would suddenly put us on equal footing with them, for offense."
Doesn't have to = or > to totality of Pens, just diminish their huge edge in this area.

more on the balance when I have time...

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03-23-2012, 12:27 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by ThatCrazyRangerFan View Post
Not bad here. I feel like Radulov will cost a big amount though. Im almost all for the clowe thing
But is it big amount wince, wince, we can live with it and it is ultimately profitable?
Or is it
YOU WANT WHAT..... FUHGEDABOUTIT...

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03-23-2012, 12:35 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
...
One more player, is not going to get us to approximate teh Pens in fire power. Not even close. There is no such one player in the league that you can add now and would suddenly put us on equal footing with them, for offense.

...
If we got Malkin in a deal for Sean Avery & Wade Redden - it might be close - no?

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03-23-2012, 01:32 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
One more player, is not going to get us to approximate teh Pens in fire power. Not even close. There is no such one player in the league that you can add now and would suddenly put us on equal footing with them, for offense.
we don't need to match them, but adding another weapon to close the gap sure woulnd't hurt...

but i also don't just look at it as matching the pens, i look at it as improving our overall depth. right now if we lose 1 of richards, gabby or callahan it kills our lines. if we could add another top guy without it costing us too much than we'd be a deeper team and be able to overcome injuries better

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03-23-2012, 02:26 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Great hitting prevails when great pitching ultimately tires.
The problem is that great pitching almost always beats great hitting.
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In any event, Pens firepower today is too much for either team, so must diminish this edge. There is no alternative.
The alternative is not to diminish areas in which we are better. The Pens have better offense. The Rangers have the better defense and goaltending. I will stick with the latter two.
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Doesn't have to = or > to totality of Pens, just diminish their huge edge in this area.
One player does not diminish this. Especially when the cost is to loose an advantage over them in a different area.

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03-23-2012, 02:27 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
if we could add another top guy without it costing us too much than we'd be a deeper team and be able to overcome injuries better
Sure, but not at the cost of loosing an advantage that we have in other areas.

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03-23-2012, 02:44 PM
  #194
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The problem is that great pitching almost always beats great hitting.

The alternative is not to diminish areas in which we are better. The Pens have better offense. The Rangers have the better defense and goaltending. I will stick with the latter two.

One player does not diminish this. Especially when the cost is to loose an advantage over them in a different area.
"The problem is that great pitching almost always beats great hitting."
Selective perspective. Also technically not accurate.
In a duel, extra innings or not, two great pitchers, one loses when the opposition finally scores. In other words, it's not pitching v. hitting, purely and in a vacuum. It is pitching + hitting v. pitching + hitting.
So it can be argued that in all cases, the greater hitting usually helped it's own good pitching prevail vs. other teams fabulous pitching, but inferior scoring.

"The alternative is not to diminish areas in which we are better. The Pens have better offense. The Rangers have the better defense and goaltending. I will stick with the latter two."
I salute your right to make your choice.
Respectfully I disagree.
Neither all offense nor all defense.
We need better BALANCE.

"One player does not diminish this. Especially when the cost is to loose an advantage over them in a different area."
One player can narrow the gap significantly enough to be a difference maker.
The right one guy --- take your pick: Radulov, Hall, Stastny, etc --- can force a team like Pens to hold back and stop bringing it, and bringing it, and continue to bring it unchallenged. That, I daresay, would actually be a relief, literally to our D and G.

The issue is what would these guys cost.
You notice I'm not going top shelf, elite guys like Perry, Getzlaf. etc., and also likes of Nash/Ryan, because surely they will cost too much, one has to expect at this point.

And are we losing in one area? Or just diminished?
That's part of the premise. You make a deal like this but only if the return justifies what you get.
It is understood a sniper is usually expensive, and the more positives --- good contract, no baggage etc --- the more that cost will be.

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03-24-2012, 09:51 AM
  #195
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I realize last night's game was against Ryan freakin Miller, who, when on top of his game, deserves his many praises.

Just proves my point that without entirely gutting all depth, just or 2 quality pieces, we MUST get a sniper!

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03-24-2012, 07:17 PM
  #196
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If the road to Lord Stanley goes through the Penguins...we better start upgrading fast or we can forget about the next 2 seasons past this one . Plus we have to still get past the Flyers & Bruins . Corey Perry could help this team in sooooooooooo many ways . He is a Ryan Callahan type with sniper attitude and he is not afraid of any corner on the ice or that nasty spot in front of the net .
We could wait and get him at the deadline as a rental for AA or Dubi or get him earlier in the year and hope we can resign him at season end . If we fail to get him...or Parise , then we go full blown at Suter and get him long long term as he will be a good puck moving guy and passer and PP shooter for a long time . We don't need all defensive guys on our blueline but rather some flash and dash and I hope DZ can continue to improve .

Corey Perry would be the 3rd most loved Ranger after Cally & Hank...mark my words as I have followed the kid since the Memorial Cup and he was a teammate of Prust & Girardi on the championship team that year and he is all blood ...sweat & tears !!!!!!!!!!!!

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03-24-2012, 09:12 PM
  #197
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Parise.

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03-25-2012, 02:34 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Parise.
Acknowledged with gratitude, but topic/title please:
anybody BESIDES parise?
No? Yes?...

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Old
03-25-2012, 03:00 PM
  #199
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
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No one else.

Just Parise.

Everyone else costs assets. Too many assets.

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Old
03-25-2012, 03:23 PM
  #200
Machinehead
Richards Supporter
 
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Location: New York New York
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vCash: 500
Forget snipers, when are we gonna get another defenseman?

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