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Worst GM In Montreal's History

View Poll Results: Who's The Worst?
Irving Grundman 12 4.74%
Rejean Houle 205 81.03%
Bob Gainey 20 7.91%
Pierre Gauthier 16 6.32%
Voters: 253. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-23-2012, 04:45 PM
  #76
thom
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Your right about Grundman and the treatment of lafleur.But when savard took over as GM he still would not trade lafleur they let him suffer and retire.One thing I will say about Grundman was how badly he and his wife were treated when they went to Quebec City the anti-jewish comments were out of line and the treatment of the fans were immoral.

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03-23-2012, 04:46 PM
  #77
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Houle gets a bit of a pass IMO for 2 important reasons:

- he wasn't management material & only took the job out of being a loyal soldier.

- ownership forced him to cut salary, while he did a poor job in moving assets, his hands were somewhat tied.

He was bad, no doubt, but his failures are, IMO far more understandable than Gainey/Gauthier, both of which have years of management experience, unlimited budget (up to cap), &, at least in gainey's case, full authority.

I'd also argue that the Gomez trade was/is worse than the Roy trade.

Rucinsky & Thibeault were both solid for us... Gomez nothing but a burden.
Roy forced his way out, & while he shined in Colorado, McDo is already top pairing caliber on the conference leading rangers... With a decade + of quality to give them

Toss up, but within their unique context, Gainey "wins" imo

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03-23-2012, 04:51 PM
  #78
Mike8
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Houle gets a bit of a pass IMO for 2 important reasons:

- he wasn't management material & only took the job out of being a loyal soldier.

- ownership forced him to cut salary, while he did a poor job in moving assets, his hands were somewhat tied.

He was bad, no doubt, but his failures are, IMO far more understandable than Gainey/Gauthier, both of which have years of management experience, unlimited budget (up to cap), &, at least in gainey's case, full authority.

I'd also argue that the Gomez trade was/is worse than the Roy trade.

Rucinsky & Thibeault were both solid for us... Gomez nothing but a burden.
Roy forced his way out, & while he shined in Colorado, McDo is already top pairing caliber on the conference leading rangers... With a decade + of quality to give them

Toss up, but within their unique context, Gainey "wins" imo
Montreal had above average payroll during Houle's tenure, so I don't see how that plays a role.

Further, as much as I'd like to defend Houle and feel for him, his being underqualified is no excuse for his poor skills as a GM. We are judging him as a GM, so his being underqualified is wholly irrelevant.

Hard to make that argument, re: Roy. He continued to be a franchise player in the league. McDonagh can never be at that level.

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03-23-2012, 05:21 PM
  #79
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Let's simplify this debate by saying that since the 1940s the Habs have had only two outstanding GMs, Frank Selke and Sam Pollock. The rest, including Serge Savard, have exhibited major flaws.

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03-23-2012, 07:06 PM
  #80
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Pinotte. Not even close. He was one of the worst GMs in NHL history.

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03-23-2012, 07:32 PM
  #81
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Montreal had above average payroll during Houle's tenure, so I don't see how that plays a role.

Further, as much as I'd like to defend Houle and feel for him, his being underqualified is no excuse for his poor skills as a GM. We are judging him as a GM, so his being underqualified is wholly irrelevant.

Hard to make that argument, re: Roy. He continued to be a franchise player in the league. McDonagh can never be at that level.
No way do they trades even come close. Roy is HHOF and got traded for nothing special. (even if I have always been a Thibault fan)


To this day, Gomez has not played well when Gauthier was in cmd. He was playing much better when Gainey was. I still think if Gainey had remained, Gomez would have played MUCH better.

You might say that I'm speculating and I won't argue if thats what you think. However, I will point to Kovalev.

Gauthier and Gainey always ( mostly) get put together but IMO there is a world of difference between them.

No one wants to play for Gauthier.

Anyway, back on topic...

Worse GM : Houle, hands down.
Gauthier is not far, he could probably beat him if he has more time.

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03-23-2012, 08:22 PM
  #82
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Houle and it's not even close. Horrible trades, horrible drafting, and lineups full of AHL calibre players. There was no reason to be optimistic during entire Houle era. He drafted horribly and always threw a prospect away in every trade.

We've at least been competitive under Grundman, Gainey and Gauthier (other than this year).
This sums it up on Houle quite nicely. He did it all. Major disaster trades like Roy, throwing away prospects like Andrew Cassels and Craig Conroy and the drafting in the 1st round was brutal. For some reason unkown to me the ability to skate was not a priority and he drafted guys like Terry Ryan, Eric Chouinard , Brad Brown, Jason Ward etc. I do agree with earlier comment that Ronald Corey is also a culprit, especially in the Roy trade. I despised that meddlesome, self-righteous, arrogant former President of ours. Nevertheless, it was Houle pulling the trigger, he was the GM. God he was awful, only Mad Mike Milbury was a worse GM in my memory.

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03-23-2012, 08:50 PM
  #83
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This sums it up on Houle quite nicely. He did it all. Major disaster trades like Roy, throwing away prospects like Andrew Cassels and Craig Conroy and the drafting in the 1st round was brutal. For some reason unkown to me the ability to skate was not a priority and he drafted guys like Terry Ryan, Eric Chouinard , Brad Brown, Jason Ward etc. I do agree with earlier comment that Ronald Corey is also a culprit, especially in the Roy trade. I despised that meddlesome, self-righteous, arrogant former President of ours. Nevertheless, it was Houle pulling the trigger, he was the GM. God he was awful, only Mad Mike Milbury was a worse GM in my memory.
I think some, like you, exaggerate Houle's incompetence. He was bad enough without the exaggeration, frankly. Cassels was gone way, way before Houle, for example. And Houle didn't toss away prospects: the prospect depth was bare when Houle came in. The only real prospect that I can think of being dealt was Conroy.

Some of the players you list as having been drafted (Brad Brown) were drafted before Houle came in, too. And to claim that Houle's regime didn't put skating at the forefront is true, but you must note that the method of drafting had been that way prior to Houle's reign as well (hence Brad Brown, Bilodeau, Stevenson, Vallis, and Charron).

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03-23-2012, 09:16 PM
  #84
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That would be Ron Corey, who is also responsible for the carousel of captains (including Chelios). He pretty much ran off everyone who didn't act like Jean Beliveau.
This is the Truth of the Reality. Cory was horrible.

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03-23-2012, 10:15 PM
  #85
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Again, not sure why people KEEP repeating the draft to proove that a GM was good or not. At best, blame him for the guy he chooses as the head scout. But the draft itself?

People, Houle was awful and knew nothing about managing a team but guess what? 1998 will always be known as one of the best draft ever. Ribeiro, Beauchemin, Ryder and Markov. And if they don't make a mistake Chouinard instead of Gagné, this could have gone as the best draft ever.....Yet, pointwise.....isn't it one of the best draft all teams included since the beginning of the league?

ISN'T IT PROOF THAT THE GM HAS NOT A WHOLE LOT TO DO WITH THE DRAFT????????????It's impossible that such greatness comes from him. It came from a head scout who unfortunately, couldn't repeat it after. Yet, it couldn't come from Houle.

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03-23-2012, 11:34 PM
  #86
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Rejean Houle is probably the worst but Gainey got my vote. I would like to take this opportunity and say again:
**** you Mr. Gainey, and **** you Mr. Gauthier.
I agree. Forget the past. The past is done. But we have Gainey and Gauthier ****ing this franchise up just as badly as Houle did and they are in the present.

**** you Gauthier.

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Old
03-24-2012, 12:35 AM
  #87
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This is the Truth of the Reality. Corey was horrible.
Said his wife

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03-24-2012, 12:49 AM
  #88
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October 1996. I get back from a week's vacation in Italy on a Sunday evening.˝While unpacking, I open the TV. Habs are playing. Mario Tremblay is behind the bench, and I hear the commentator say the names "Shayne Corson" and "Murray Baron". I realize that Pierre Turgeon is not playing. I call my dad, who tells me about Corey 'cleaning house' and hiring Pinotte & Cie.

That, my friends, is MY "darkest day in Habs history"... until St. Patrick's Day came along, anyways


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03-24-2012, 02:37 AM
  #89
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Anyone who was a fan through the Houle era, especially after those two cup winning teams, would never ask this question. Gainey and Gauthier are a godsend in comparison! Houle was incompetent.

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03-24-2012, 02:41 AM
  #90
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I agree. Forget the past. The past is done. But we have Gainey and Gauthier ****ing this franchise up just as badly as Houle did and they are in the present.

**** you Gauthier.
Clearly you are too young to remember the Houle era.

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03-24-2012, 04:22 AM
  #91
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Clearly you are too young to remember the Houle era.
Its laughable that Gainey is even in this discussion. Grundman, Houle and Gauthier all inherited teams that were contenders and ruined them.Gauthier in fact inherited a contender from Gainey himself.

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03-24-2012, 04:26 AM
  #92
The Real Guy Lafleur
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Originally Posted by Bloumeister View Post
October 1996. I get back from a week's vacation in Italy on a Sunday evening.˝While unpacking, I open the TV. Habs are playing. Mario Tremblay is behind the bench, and I hear the commentator say the names "Shayne Corson" and "Murray Baron". I realize that Pierre Turgeon is not playing. I call my dad, who tells me about Corey 'cleaning house' and hiring Pinotte & Cie.

That, my friends, is MY "darkest day in Habs history"... until St. Patrick's Day came along, anyways

I remember that day, Shayne ****ingCorson ???? I couldn't believe it.

I still HATE Houle with a passion to this day!

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03-24-2012, 06:14 AM
  #93
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Its laughable that Gainey is even in this discussion. Grundman, Houle and Gauthier all inherited teams that were contenders and ruined them.Gauthier in fact inherited a contender from Gainey himself.
I agree...What I think it is most voters weren't around for Grundman and don't know how bad he was.

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03-24-2012, 06:39 AM
  #94
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I agree...What I think it is most voters weren't around for Grundman and don't know how bad he was.
Agreed.

How can Gainey be in this conversation when he took a sad sack non-playoff team to a President's trophy and a final four finish??????

The Leafs haven't even made the playoffs in 8 years and that is with God himself (Burke) at the helm for the last 4.

Enough of the drama people, we are having a terrible season but let's use some perspective.

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03-24-2012, 07:15 AM
  #95
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I don't see why everyone hates Gauthier so much. It's been a miserable season, but any mid-range team that loses their number one defenseman for that long is going to be in rough shape. Imagine Boston without Chara all year. Ottawa without Karlsson.

He also had a top-6 forward go down to injury. He had our best winger decide to take the year off. And he had the albatross of a Gomez contract who had to give another chance too.

I don't think he's a great GM - but he's better than Houle and Gainey. He's made some pretty great moves. This summer will be huge for my decision on him.

We need 1) to sign Suter, Parise, Wideman, Whitney, or Semin (to a lesser extent). 2) he needs to loan or demote Gomez - no buy out (unless something is in the new CBA).

Hopefully Timmins' makes the right choice in the draft.

That would be an excellent summer.

PS. I like Cunneyworth. If we replace him, I really hope he's kept as an assistant.

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03-24-2012, 07:17 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Again, not sure why people KEEP repeating the draft to proove that a GM was good or not. At best, blame him for the guy he chooses as the head scout. But the draft itself?

People, Houle was awful and knew nothing about managing a team but guess what? 1998 will always be known as one of the best draft ever. Ribeiro, Beauchemin, Ryder and Markov. And if they don't make a mistake Chouinard instead of Gagné, this could have gone as the best draft ever.....Yet, pointwise.....isn't it one of the best draft all teams included since the beginning of the league?

ISN'T IT PROOF THAT THE GM HAS NOT A WHOLE LOT TO DO WITH THE DRAFT????????????It's impossible that such greatness comes from him. It came from a head scout who unfortunately, couldn't repeat it after. Yet, it couldn't come from Houle.
A GM's duties is to assemble a good staff. Indeed, that's what a manager does. As such, it isn't wrong to credit Houle for his good draft year in '98--just as it isn't wrong to say the team had awful drafts under Houle (and in Savard's later years)--particularly in the first round.

Similarly, when making a trade, GMs will rely on pro scouts and (where applicable) amateur scouts. We don't hold those scouts responsible; the GMs are accountable.

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03-24-2012, 08:05 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Again, not sure why people KEEP repeating the draft to proove that a GM was good or not. At best, blame him for the guy he chooses as the head scout. But the draft itself?

People, Houle was awful and knew nothing about managing a team but guess what? 1998 will always be known as one of the best draft ever. Ribeiro, Beauchemin, Ryder and Markov. And if they don't make a mistake Chouinard instead of Gagné, this could have gone as the best draft ever.....Yet, pointwise.....isn't it one of the best draft all teams included since the beginning of the league?

ISN'T IT PROOF THAT THE GM HAS NOT A WHOLE LOT TO DO WITH THE DRAFT????????????It's impossible that such greatness comes from him. It came from a head scout who unfortunately, couldn't repeat it after. Yet, it couldn't come from Houle.
Bravo

That's what people mean when they say we drafted terrible under Houle. The GM is responsible for is team of scouts. A bad draft is a GM's responsibility in the end for hiring bad scouts. Houle was the worst. All these big slow bodies from the WHL in the 1st round were terrible...

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03-24-2012, 08:08 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
A GM's duties is to assemble a good staff. Indeed, that's what a manager does. As such, it isn't wrong to credit Houle for his good draft year in '98--just as it isn't wrong to say the team had awful drafts under Houle (and in Savard's later years)--particularly in the first round.

Similarly, when making a trade, GMs will rely on pro scouts and (where applicable) amateur scouts. We don't hold those scouts responsible; the GMs are accountable.
Well I guess that's how you see it. Not how I do. I DO hold pro scout accountable for recommanding players (see Gomez). Yet, in pro scouting, you do believe that the GM has more an active duty as to see for himself the players he wants to get and he surely knows the players he has in hands when he trades them. While in drafting, how many games do you think he sees live of players he's going to draft? Yes, he then relies on his head scout. Reason why I said that at best you have to either congratulate or blame the guy he appointed as head scout. But as far as the picks themselves, all the blame or the praise as to go to the head scout. The head scout how often, also, has to rely on his scouts to get a good read on players, yet he often verify himself and has the final say.

We all see how the drafts goes. And when you hear Gainey, Gauthier and Co saying to their head scouts "Are you sure" when it's time to draft, you then understand that all the power resides on the said head scout no matter which teams they are from.

So my point is when it was time to make pro trades, which trade looked like in success the 1998 draft? Houle was never able to make something interesting. Yet, we are going to make him responsible for having one of the best drafts the Habs had ever? Not here. We have had how many GM's since 2000? And how many head scouts? Aren't we the best team at picking NHL players? Who is the common denominator?

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03-24-2012, 08:13 AM
  #99
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I don't see why everyone hates Gauthier so much. It's been a miserable season, but any mid-range team that loses their number one defenseman for that long is going to be in rough shape. Imagine Boston without Chara all year. Ottawa without Karlsson.

He also had a top-6 forward go down to injury. He had our best winger decide to take the year off. And he had the albatross of a Gomez contract who had to give another chance too.

I don't think he's a great GM - but he's better than Houle and Gainey. He's made some pretty great moves. This summer will be huge for my decision on him.

We need 1) to sign Suter, Parise, Wideman, Whitney, or Semin (to a lesser extent). 2) he needs to loan or demote Gomez - no buy out (unless something is in the new CBA).

Hopefully Timmins' makes the right choice in the draft.

That would be an excellent summer.

PS. I like Cunneyworth. If we replace him, I really hope he's kept as an assistant.
A whole lot of optimism here that I guess is needed in this sea of miserability. Yet, don't hold your breath on anything. I will be incredibly surprised that Gauthier sees a summer. And I don't see at all keeping Cunneyworth as an assistant unless.....the players love him so much that they ask for it. Yet, on a credibility level, it is a pretty hard sale. Strangely, I don't know if that's possible to do, I'd keep Ladouceur. But that's a decision only the new coach will take. Which will probably won't happen since you always bring your friends.

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03-24-2012, 08:13 AM
  #100
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Well I guess that's how you see it. Not how I do. I DO hold pro scout accountable for recommanding players (see Gomez). Yet, in pro scouting, you do believe that the GM has more an active duty as to see for himself the players he wants to get and he surely knows the players he has in hands when he trades them. While in drafting, how many games do you think he sees live of players he's going to draft? Yes, he then relies on his head scout. Reason why I said that at best you have to either congratulate or blame the guy he appointed as head scout. But as far as the picks themselves, all the blame or the praise as to go to the head scout. The head scout how often, also, has to rely on his scouts to get a good read on players, yet he often verify himself and has the final say.

We all see how the drafts goes. And when you hear Gainey, Gauthier and Co saying to their head scouts "Are you sure" when it's time to draft, you then understand that all the power resides on the said head scout no matter which teams they are from.

So my point is when it was time to make pro trades, which trade looked like in success the 1998 draft? Houle was never able to make something interesting. Yet, we are going to make him responsible for having one of the best drafts the Habs had ever? Not here.
Difference of opinion, I suppose. Though I still have trouble buying that there's a difference of opinion, since the job description of a General Manager is to manage. That means assembling the right staff. That's the sole duty of a GM, frankly. Hiring the right amateur scouts, pro scouts, the right development staff and coaches. It all falls on the GM. That's all they're supposed to do. These support staff are supposed to do all the legwork--including trading, signing, and drafting.

That's why new GMs often bring in new amateur scouts with them. It's ultimately their responsibility.

As far as Houle with trades: he was able to make a couple of good ones.

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