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Old
03-23-2012, 09:52 PM
  #126
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not sure why you are denying this. We keep seeing tons and tons of situations in this level when players stop playing for their coach. Even if it's not the majority, you actually could need only a minority of GREAT players to be the key into a coach's firing. I'm sorry but as professionnals as they are, some players have all the talent in the world and yet don't want to work their butt off. Some just have a ****** attitude. Some are professionnals, but just don't have the talent to go with their work ethic. Some guys are passionnate about the game, yet, the only way to get their message through might be the suddenly show that lack of effort that will evidently fire their coach. You know, where it's easier to fire 1 guy than 20. Professionnals are still human beings. With their ups and downs. Again, mind you, RC is not a favorite of mine. But there are explications to his problems. And even if you don't want to agree with any of it....well he is still a rookie and clearly lacks confidence. Something a lot of our ex-players showed and got traded before showing what they REALLY can do. Not saying it will be the case but RC, but at the very least, the benefit of the doubt should be given to the guy. I know, I wouldn't judge RC the same I judge Martin. Just like I don't judge Gainey/Gauthier work like I judged Houle's work.

Dude, it's like mixing apple and oranges. All of what you're saying is irrelevant.
In the end, I'm only talking about hockey decisions.
Decisions that were taken behind the bench, irrelevant as to whether or not players give it their all for him.
Benching Eller, removing AK that was working with Eller to put him with Gomez, his dump and chase system, his lack of counter attack strategies, his dump it out by the boards style, his usage of certain players, etc. That's what I'm basing my opinion on.
And none of those decisions have anything to do with the attitude of guys inside the room.
Or are you foolishly suggesting the man didn't even have the chance to instill the system he wanted?

The man just sucks, plain and simple.

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03-23-2012, 10:07 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Dude, it's like mixing apple and oranges. All of what you're saying is irrelevant.
In the end, I'm only talking about hockey decisions.
Decisions that were taken behind the bench, irrelevant as to whether or not players give it their all for him.
Benching Eller, removing AK that was working with Eller to put him with Gomez, his dump and chase system, his lack of counter attack strategies, his dump it out by the boards style, his usage of certain players, etc. That's what I'm basing my opinion on.
And none of those decisions have anything to do with the attitude of guys inside the room.
Or are you foolishly suggesting the man didn't even have the chance to instill the system he wanted?

The man just sucks, plain and simple.
Well first, a coach comes with a system he likes to play. But to be able to play a system you like, you need the type of players to do so. Now, a guy who comes in in the middle of the season and tries to implement a system, as a rookie, is not always easy. Now, even if you don't like his system, are you actually saying that this system NEVER works and it doesn't matter who tries to implement it? So yes, while we are not on the inside, it is entirely possible that the system in place did not work from time to time based on how the players responded to it. All those benching players....didn't we criticize Martin for doing the exact same thing? Yes, I blame Cunneyworth for that. But then, when Martin was doing the same stupid mistakes, when a guy had suddenly a burst of energy 10 games after, some people came here saying that it was BECAUSE Martin benched him that he was now responding.

In the end, as well, we have the team that we have. I guess that Cunneyworth was not able to make a good team out of this very average team. And while we do believe he sucked this year, I have no idea why we can't apply the same way of thinking with players and coaches. Cunneyworth would have looked at his season in retrospect, would have perfect his system, would have probably asked for a couple of moves to make sure he'd have all of his players agree to it, or would have changed it based on who he has in hands. So, yes, RC didn't adjust this year. He had a whole lot of trouble. Nobody denies it. But I think that you are not giving him a whole lot of chances here. Not that it matters though, he would have to win the Cup to have a chance to stay here. He succeeded in being fired without having to bring out the language issue.

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03-23-2012, 10:23 PM
  #128
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Well first, a coach comes with a system he likes to play. But to be able to play a system you like, you need the type of players to do so. Now, a guy who comes in in the middle of the season and tries to implement a system, as a rookie, is not always easy. Now, even if you don't like his system, are you actually saying that this system NEVER works and it doesn't matter who tries to implement it? So yes, while we are not on the inside, it is entirely possible that the system in place did not work from time to time based on how the players responded to it.
Precisely. I don't recall any team that had much success since the lockout that used a dump and chase, and a dump it out the board system, with no counter attack/neutral zone strategy. If you have, let me know.

When he took over as coach, he said he didn't want to change the system Martin used. Clearly, he either lied, or didn't even understand Martin's system.

And ya, you can say the coach comes in with a new system and needs the right players. But, isn't it part of the job to know what you have under your hands and ADAPT?..

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
All those benching players....didn't we criticize Martin for doing the exact same thing? Yes, I blame Cunneyworth for that. But then, when Martin was doing the same stupid mistakes, when a guy had suddenly a burst of energy 10 games after, some people came here saying that it was BECAUSE Martin benched him that he was now responding.
Yup, it's not because Martin made the same mistakes that it makes it okay for RC to do them.
I've criticized Martin on his utilization of certain players, and it started really early with S.Kostitsyn.

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
In the end, as well, we have the team that we have. I guess that Cunneyworth was not able to make a good team out of this very average team. And while we do believe he sucked this year, I have no idea why we can't apply the same way of thinking with players and coaches. Cunneyworth would have looked at his season in retrospect, would have perfect his system, would have probably asked for a couple of moves to make sure he'd have all of his players agree to it, or would have changed it based on who he has in hands. So, yes, RC didn't adjust this year. He had a whole lot of trouble. Nobody denies it. But I think that you are not giving him a whole lot of chances here. Not that it matters though, he would have to win the Cup to have a chance to stay here. He succeeded in being fired without having to bring out the language issue.
The thing is you seem to think RC is better than what he's shown. I don't. I think the guy is not ready for a NHL job. He's shown no signs of being ready for it as the interim coach. I think he needs to go back down with this new baggage and develop stronger coaching strategies.



Anyways, I don't really know what people are really arguing about anymore. My first response came after someone claimed RC did a good job, which is ridiculous.
Then, from what I understand, some are willing to turn face a little more because he was apparently set up to fail, which I still don't understand because the bad decisions he's made have nothing to do with it.

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03-23-2012, 11:50 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by habsfan92 View Post
I thought he was talking about Randy C., not Pierre G? Am I missing something?
I was talking about RC. Not saying the guy is a great coach, but look at the **** he inherited. He seems to have kept a good spirit on the team, and that's all I hoped for really.

Next year is different, but I'm not talking about next year.

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03-24-2012, 12:05 AM
  #130
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You weren't aware of it because there was no need to have any since the french and the english DID co-exist. This year, we never had so few local players in the team. And not only that but you add an unilingual coach on top of it. With a lot of management being anglophones as well. Even when Bowman and Co were there, at least you had that representation on the ice. Now, there's no a whole lot of it.

HENCE the sudden awareness that politics plays a role.
WS that's all true. There is nothing more I would like than French GM, French coach and great french players like we used to have.

You are right, I did not have to think about it.

I've said before, the Habs should play a much bigger role in Quebec hockey. They should OWN this place, be it helping leagues, developing talent, and yes, also developing coaching and management talent.

But they don't do that. Until we redevelop our Quebec power base, we have to adapt to a a new league and new times.

I actually don't care about a french coach, because except for rare guys like Bowman, most coaches are glorified cheerleaders anyway.
As for GM, you've got to find the best guy, hopefully french, but possibly english.

It is great french PLAYERS that I want. From Lemieux to Giroux, it pisses me off me that these guys never played for Habs.

Give us 2 or 3 great French players, and I believe that Quebec fans wouldn't care if Margerat Thatcher managed the team, and David Niven coached them.

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03-24-2012, 12:18 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If Cunneyworth had gotten the Habs on a tear the 50 games of the year. 30-13-7 and finished with 100 points, you can bet your bottom dollar he would ahve been hired full time and the laguage thing would have been dealt with by saying he was going to learn french after the season.
Yeah 30 13 7 with the three most important forward vets either injured or imploded. A young D with no experience.

He had no ****ing chance. So why is everyone pissed off? He's gone next year, who cares?

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03-24-2012, 12:30 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
RC took over and there was an immediate 6 losses in 7 games. Horrific but given what the club did to him it was expected.

Apart from that, the club has been right in line with where Martin had them. There's not that much of a difference here.
Which tells you a lot about the importance of coaching. Which is not that much. The sooner people realize that it's the players and Team that win or lose hockey games, not coaches, the better.

Habs won is 86 despite Perron. Why? Great players, great team spirit, great goalie.

Coaching is overblown, which is why most of them get fired after 2-3 years. Its a joke, all these clowns bouncing around the league.

Give us great players. Don't care a **** about the coach, as long as he shuts up and lets them play. Which is what Bowman did most of the time by the way.

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03-24-2012, 12:43 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I disagree. This isn't high school. Sure, players will test a coach, his limits, but they won't not play for him. They won't not listen to him. Maybe if we had a team full of Kovalevs, but not with this current group. And even then, they remain professionals. They will see what the coach is about before testing his limits.
But I'm not denying the existing of such players, even then, they do not represent the majority of the team, it's not even close.
The problem is that people are looking at events that are in NO WAY relevant to on ice decisions.
I'm sure RC had to deal with issues every other new green coach has to. Heck, you can even say it's tougher because of the situation here.
That being said, it has absolutely nothing to do with the poor on ice coaching decisions he's made.
I mean, sure, have some sympathy for the tough position he was placed in. Sadly, that should not come into effect when you look at his lack of system and poor decisions.



Okay, so they should have said nothing. So what? Should I shed a tear for RC? Because he was placed in such a God awful position??

Say your boss comes to tell you you're getting a promotion but you'll be fired in 4-6months. But, there's also a bunch of other companies that are keeping a close eye on you and how you perform in this new position because they will be looking for someone to fill their own spot in just about 6months.
What do you do? Go home cry and decide to not do your job? Or enjoy this opportunity and perform as good as you've ever performed in order to land another other job at those other companies??

Jesus Christ man. It's like people are so upset with upper management they will blame them for everything.

RC has done a terrible job. Open your damn eyes man.
If my boss promoted me and then told me I was to be fired in 6 months, I'd tell him to **** off and start looking for a new job immediately.

Yeah, I'd kiss his ass and say thanks and work my ass off, in the hope that other companies are 'watching' me. Not.

I'm not defending RC, yeah he's a **** coach. Who cares. Most of them are. Why are you in such a froth about this?

Our team has too many **** players, why don't you worry about that?

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03-24-2012, 12:54 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Explain to me the link between this and the dump/chase system he employs?
It just doesn't make any sense. None of the coaches decisions he's made have anything to do with management handling the situation as they did.

What, it hurt his feelings so much he forgot how to coach?
Dude, it doesn't add up.
Maybe your vaunted systems don't mean *****. Ever think of that? Hockey is played on the ice. If I'm a better player, a faster player, a tougher player, I beat you. It's not rocket science.

Systems shmystems. We wouldn't even be talking about this if Habs had a few more really good hockey players. Who cares about the coach?

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03-24-2012, 05:14 AM
  #135
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Maybe your vaunted systems don't mean *****. Ever think of that? Hockey is played on the ice. If I'm a better player, a faster player, a tougher player, I beat you. It's not rocket science.

Systems shmystems. We wouldn't even be talking about this if Habs had a few more really good hockey players. Who cares about the coach?
Well, Washington has always had a few really good hockey players, but with clowns coaching them, they have not really succeeded, have they?

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03-24-2012, 05:42 AM
  #136
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Maybe your vaunted systems don't mean *****. Ever think of that? Hockey is played on the ice. If I'm a better player, a faster player, a tougher player, I beat you. It's not rocket science.

Systems shmystems. We wouldn't even be talking about this if Habs had a few more really good hockey players. Who cares about the coach?
I totally get what you're saying but at the NHL level things are different. They're all, on-average, good enough athletes in some way, shape or form; it's the mental, tactical side of things where it gets interesting. Just having proper on-ice vision separates an NHLer from the rest; coaching has a lot to do with it in the same regard.

System is probably a bit of a misnomer but coaching and motivating are huge in a league full of parity.

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Well, Washington has always had a few really good hockey players, but with clowns coaching them, they have not really succeeded, have they?
Great point. Though their D has never been good and Jeff Schultz is a joke.

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03-24-2012, 08:49 AM
  #137
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If Cunneyworth isn't coming back, then the arguement with Campoli shouldn't mean anything.

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03-24-2012, 09:06 AM
  #138
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If Cunneyworth isn't coming back, then the arguement with Campoli shouldn't mean anything.
What arguement?

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03-24-2012, 11:08 AM
  #139
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Yeah 30 13 7 with the three most important forward vets either injured or imploded. A young D with no experience.

He had no ****ing chance. So why is everyone pissed off? He's gone next year, who cares?
Pacioretty and Cole both scored 30 goals. Had he better manged Plekanec and the others they'd have enough offense, but he chose to use Plekanec as a shutdown guy and his numbers plumetted(thanks to Blunden White Darche etc as linemates).

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03-24-2012, 11:17 AM
  #140
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Precisely. I don't recall any team that had much success since the lockout that used a dump and chase, and a dump it out the board system, with no counter attack/neutral zone strategy. If you have, let me know.

When he took over as coach, he said he didn't want to change the system Martin used. Clearly, he either lied, or didn't even understand Martin's system.

And ya, you can say the coach comes in with a new system and needs the right players. But, isn't it part of the job to know what you have under your hands and ADAPT?..



Yup, it's not because Martin made the same mistakes that it makes it okay for RC to do them.
I've criticized Martin on his utilization of certain players, and it started really early with S.Kostitsyn.



The thing is you seem to think RC is better than what he's shown. I don't. I think the guy is not ready for a NHL job. He's shown no signs of being ready for it as the interim coach. I think he needs to go back down with this new baggage and develop stronger coaching strategies.



Anyways, I don't really know what people are really arguing about anymore. My first response came after someone claimed RC did a good job, which is ridiculous.
Then, from what I understand, some are willing to turn face a little more because he was apparently set up to fail, which I still don't understand because the bad decisions he's made have nothing to do with it.
That's not what we're saying. We're saying he wasn't really given a chance to show how good a coach he can be. You say his system doesn't make sense... well, who the hell knows? I get that you don't like it but you seemed to like Martin's system and that wasn't leading anywhere either. I think it's hilarious when I hear some folks talk like it's the end of the world that we got rid of a coach that most couldn't wait to be rid of.

RC's system is a radical departure from what we had been doing. There was no training camp, no time to get players into it and the players' knowledge that he wasn't going to be there beyond this year. Good luck with that. They tried an experiment and it didn't work.

Like I said, I personally don't think much of him as a coach. I think he repeated a lot of the same mistakes Martin made. But to listen to some posters talk about Martin you'd think we'd fired Scotty Bowman. We had nothing to lose by firing him, I'm glad he's gone. Cunneyworth wont' be back next year either? Fine by me.

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03-24-2012, 11:24 AM
  #141
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Pacioretty and Cole both scored 30 goals. Had he better manged Plekanec and the others they'd have enough offense, but he chose to use Plekanec as a shutdown guy and his numbers plumetted(thanks to Blunden White Darche etc as linemates).
RC's use of Plekanec is an absolute mystery to me. Totally stupid.

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03-24-2012, 11:36 AM
  #142
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If my boss promoted me and then told me I was to be fired in 6 months, I'd tell him to **** off and start looking for a new job immediately.

Yeah, I'd kiss his ass and say thanks and work my ass off, in the hope that other companies are 'watching' me. Not.

I'm not defending RC, yeah he's a **** coach. Who cares. Most of them are. Why are you in such a froth about this?

Our team has too many **** players, why don't you worry about that?
Our team started the year with a top 9. Over a short period of games, with every branch of management contributing, that got transformed into a top3 + plekanec.
Gauthier needs to be fired, no question there.
But had RC known what he was actually doing, then we could still have been somewhat competitive.
He played his part in this horrible season.

You said the man did a good job because your standards were so low, all you cared about was "keeping good spirits", as if this was elementary school. He also took over around the 30game mark, so, plenty of time for him to get things figured out.

Muller took over a crappy team too, yet he was actually able to COACH them.

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03-24-2012, 11:42 AM
  #143
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Our team started the year with a top 9. Over a short period of games, with every branch of management contributing, that got transformed into a top3 + plekanec.
Gauthier needs to be fired, no question there.
But had RC known what he was actually doing, then we could still have been somewhat competitive.
He played his part in this horrible season.

You said the man did a good job because your standards were so low, all you cared about was "keeping good spirits", as if this was elementary school. He also took over around the 30game mark, so, plenty of time for him to get things figured out.

Muller took over a crappy team too, yet he was actually able to COACH them.
Kirk Muller lost 5 out of his first 6 games too.... then on Dec 8th Eric Staal remembered he was a top line center and they actually began to win some games.

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03-24-2012, 01:51 PM
  #144
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Our team started the year with a top 9. Over a short period of games, with every branch of management contributing, that got transformed into a top3 + plekanec.
Gauthier needs to be fired, no question there.
But had RC known what he was actually doing, then we could still have been somewhat competitive.
He played his part in this horrible season.

You said the man did a good job because your standards were so low, all you cared about was "keeping good spirits", as if this was elementary school. He also took over around the 30game mark, so, plenty of time for him to get things figured out.

Muller took over a crappy team too, yet he was actually able to COACH them.
While you think I'm saying that RC was not that bad, which it isn't true, I'd love to know if you think that we are finally not that bad of a team after all and only RC is making this team much worst than it is. Or is a misconception on my part. 'Cause frankly, I think there's a lot more than RC at this point. And I'm not even talking about Gauthier who you know my position about him...Gauthier loves to play with us by having his final press conference the day after being eliminated, I hope he's fired before.

Actually, I hope Molson return the favor. Fire his ass between the 2nd and the 3rd period of the last game.

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03-24-2012, 03:54 PM
  #145
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Kirk Muller lost 5 out of his first 6 games too.... then on Dec 8th Eric Staal remembered he was a top line center and they actually began to win some games.
Sure, you can say that.
Ovevr here, our best forward is Plekanec and RC turned him into a 3rd line checking center. Yet another reason why I think the man is simply in way over his head.
I'd also argue Carolina was not a better team than us when both coaches took over.

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While you think I'm saying that RC was not that bad, which it isn't true, I'd love to know if you think that we are finally not that bad of a team after all and only RC is making this team much worst than it is. Or is a misconception on my part. 'Cause frankly, I think there's a lot more than RC at this point. And I'm not even talking about Gauthier who you know my position about him...Gauthier loves to play with us by having his final press conference the day after being eliminated, I hope he's fired before.

Actually, I hope Molson return the favor. Fire his ass between the 2nd and the 3rd period of the last game.
I think we had a good team, not the case anymore though. I think RC contributed in its demise.
Couldn't get anything going with AK and Cammy, those two guys were traded at their lowest value, yet again. We replaced them by Bourque, who's a massive failure and will keep being one imo. I don't understand the point in going after ''problem'' players, we clearly do not know how to manage them.

The handling of AK also affected Eller imo, who had a strong offensive linemate with chemistry, only to be removed and given scrappers.

Anyways, I'm not going to list the numerous mistakes coaches and management have done. My point was just to say RC has done a terrible job, and no matter how much people want to say his hands were tied, he was still awful. It doesn't excuse everything. That is my point.


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03-24-2012, 06:57 PM
  #146
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Anyways, I'm not going to list the numerous mistakes coaches and management have done. My point was just to say RC has done a terrible job, and no matter how much people want to say his hands were tied, he was still awful. It doesn't excuse everything. That is my point.
No need too. I do get your point. RC is not my favourite either. But he wasn't put in the best situation possible.

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03-24-2012, 07:40 PM
  #147
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Friedman is an amazing analyst. Guy is very intelligent.

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03-24-2012, 10:24 PM
  #148
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Sure, you can say that.
Ovevr here, our best forward is Plekanec and RC turned him into a 3rd line checking center. Yet another reason why I think the man is simply in way over his head.
I'd also argue Carolina was not a better team than us when both coaches took over.
I can't understand the Plekanec move either.

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03-25-2012, 01:20 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post

...I actually don't care about a french coach, because except for rare guys like Bowman, most coaches are glorified cheerleaders anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Which tells you a lot about the importance of coaching. Which is not that much. The sooner people realize that it's the players and Team that win or lose hockey games, not coaches, the better.

Give us great players. Don't care a **** about the coach, as long as he shuts up and lets them play. Which is what Bowman did most of the time by the way.
slightly confused.

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