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Trading Staal and signing Ryan Suter

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Old
03-24-2012, 12:06 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Trident61494 View Post
Took me an hour to read , but the best way to say what I said on Page Three.

Guys, Staal is not Brian Leetch. He's not Potvin Bourque, or Orr. He's not Zubov or Coffey. Enough is enough on his stats. Stats speak volumes for goal scorers. He is not a goal scorer. Don't tell me he's a goal scorer because he's "supposed to be." Boyler scored 21 goals last year. Does that make him a goal scorer? Or a fluke? Or a disappointment? Does it make him lucky? Did he step up because of disproportionate offense?

Stop going to the stat line and watch the game. Not everything is about scoring. I suppose next you'll want Biron to win 25 games...oh wait...whoops...
To be fair, there is not a Bourque, Orr, Coffee, Zubov, or Leetch in the league right now.

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03-24-2012, 12:15 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by mahonistan View Post
Not really. The team's problems won't go away simply by adding big named guys via huge contracts and big trades. We've seen the effects of terrible contracts from perennial 60 pt players like Nash with Drury and Gomez. Parise would be nice, but it's unrealistic. I don't see the need to add a huge contract when we are first in the east this year and our young guys will only get better. We can keep the farm and see if it pans out and wait a couple of years until better players hit the market. I am a realist however and I know the Rangers historically have been the type of team to trade young talent and sign players to huge contracts. I just hope they aren't stupid enough to add an overhyped Nash or severely overpay to get Parise out of NJ. If they can get Parise for 5-6 mil in a front loaded deal, fine. However the 8 years 72 mil I've been seeing is crippling. I just wouldn't want to be in a situation where you can't re-sign MDZ, Hagelin, Callahan, McD, Girardi, and Stepan down the line. Call me old fashioned, but based on every hockey dynasty, the way to build a team is through the draft and the farm. Not trades and free agency. The only sport where you can do that is basketball. The Rangers have FAILED with the trade and free agency model. Especially when it comes to overpaying players like Gomez, Drury, Redden, Bure, Lindros, and even older by trading Park and Ratelle for Esposito. That alone may have cost the Rangers a cup or two. I understand the NY mindset is win now worry about it later and that I'm a minority in not wanting to add a huge contract. From my point of view, this team has great chemistry and the pieces they need are already here in the farm. However, I am just a fan and my opinion does not and will not ever matter. Historically speaking though, the stuff you guys are proposing is exactly what has kept the Rangers from winning in the past and doing it again will not bring in a cup.


Examples of this big name fiasco would be
Lindros traded to Philly.
That trade basically sent Phillys farm to Colorado. They used some spare parts in Thibault and draft picks to get Roy (a legend) and those two trades (one a direct result from trading Lindros) won Colorado 2 cups. Lindros was great, but he never won the Flyers the cup. He was overhyped as "the next Wayne Gretzky".

Phil Esposito was traded to the Rangers for Brad Park and Jean Ratelle. The Esposito wanted Ken Hodge so the Rangers traded away Rick Middleton. Had those two trades not happened for big names, we'd have at least another cup.

Bure, Lindros, Kovalev (again), Nedved, Drury, Gomez, Redden, Holik... all acquisitions by the Rangers and we all know how that turned out.

Exceptions are when you can acquire Jagr, Roy, Messier, and Gretzky for almost nothing. But those guys at the times of their acquisitions by their respective teams were amongst the greatest players ever. Other than that, it doesn't really work out. Look at Hossa's and Kovalchuk's contracts. they are not worth their contracts though Kovy is playing better but it took 3 years. How will Parise or Nash be any different? Even Gaborik and Richards were shmeh signings. Richards is locked up for the rest of his career and people complain about him now. Imagine what happens in 4 years when his production really starts to drop.

You guys overvalue these free agents or potential trade targets who really aren't that much different than the ones we have signed or traded for and then watched them flounder in blue. Then we'll be hearing the "why did we trade for Nash" or "why did we sign Parise for 9 years".

I'm just a fan who wants his team to start a dynasty by building from within. If that makes me nuts, I'm cool with it. However, it's worked out pretty damn well for teams in the past and the Rangers have the same tools those other teams had already in their system.

How long will solid players like Stepan and MDZ keep taking minuscule contracts to stay at NYR? MDZ is on pace for 45 points and an above 20 +/-. How long do guys like him and McD say "I'm only worth 2-3 mil?" They can easily leave the NYR if they want to chase more money as NYR will be too bogged down from huge contracts to give them it.

tl;dr

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Old
03-24-2012, 12:20 AM
  #153
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The Staal we've seen has not been the real Staal. The real Staal is better than Girardi, hands down. If there is any D man we can afford to lose it's actually Girardi. Staal, with a good offseason and a full camp, will be back to his old form next season and replace Girardi's production if G is traded. Not advocating that we trade either unless it's for a top pick or a top offensive talent not named Nash though.

Nash would be so bad here IMO, especially relative to his cap hit. He doesn't fit the mold of this team well, would be forced to be more defensive, and is self proclaimed to be more comfortable playing in a smaller market.

Parise is a much better option. We'd get him for about what Nash's cap hit is without giving up the assets. Parise knows what we're all about and would fit in no problem.

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03-24-2012, 12:56 AM
  #154
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no point in trading Staal, he fits the team like a glove. Imagine when he is fully healthy and has a full pre season to round into top form. Another top pairing dman is a good problem to have. his contract is also relatively affordable.

NY will lose
Zuc's contract at 1.75
Fedotenko at 1.4
Mitchell at 650K
and another 2 million from Drury

They have to resign
Prust
MDZ

and decide on
Stralman
Bickel
Eminger
Biron

cap geek has a 14 mil cap space cushion,
the devils are projected to have 22 mil in cap space

don't think a Parise is coming to broadway

maybe Semin would work ? The guy has a ripping good shot

signing Suter makes little sense

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03-24-2012, 01:18 AM
  #155
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maybe Semin would work ? The guy has a ripping good shot

He's also lazy and soft. He wouldnt mesh with Torts.

Cant deny the talent though.

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03-24-2012, 02:24 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by mahonistan View Post
To be fair, there is not a Bourque, Orr, Coffee, Zubov, or Leetch in the league right now.
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03-24-2012, 07:39 AM
  #157
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What makes everyone think Staal will regain his form? He is very shy about being physical. Sure he has the occassional physical outburst when he gets pissed off but more times than not he shy shys away and that is a far cry from how he played before he got hurt. IMO if there is a deal out there and the other team wants him he's gone. I do not think he will recover. He's become a bigger version of former ranger Rod Seiling, all poke check and no body.

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03-24-2012, 08:16 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
No..
Nice analysis. Or not.

I would argue that Suter and Weber both benefit from each other. However, I would argue that Suter is a better player by himself because his best attributes (elite smarts, puck-movement) allow him to fit almost any team and play almost any role. If Weber doesn't have someone to give him the puck on the PP, he is not as effective.

Whoever is saying that Suter is not an elite d-man hasn't been watching him much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthlandPro View Post
What makes everyone think Staal will regain his form? He is very shy about being physical. Sure he has the occassional physical outburst when he gets pissed off but more times than not he shy shys away and that is a far cry from how he played before he got hurt. IMO if there is a deal out there and the other team wants him he's gone. I do not think he will recover. He's become a bigger version of former ranger Rod Seiling, all poke check and no body.
Geez, why so impatient?

The guy missed the first half of the season and has had to get into game shape on the fly. Not to mention he was coming off of a concussion. Give him time, do you not remember how good he was last year? He'll be fine, panicking and trading a guy for having a down year is a really bad way to run a team.

--

Man, there is a lot of fail in this thread.

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03-24-2012, 09:34 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by KingWantsCup View Post
The Staal we've seen has not been the real Staal. The real Staal is better than Girardi, hands down. If there is any D man we can afford to lose it's actually Girardi. Staal, with a good offseason and a full camp, will be back to his old form next season and replace Girardi's production if G is traded. Not advocating that we trade either unless it's for a top pick or a top offensive talent not named Nash though.

Nash would be so bad here IMO, especially relative to his cap hit. He doesn't fit the mold of this team well, would be forced to be more defensive, and is self proclaimed to be more comfortable playing in a smaller market.

Parise is a much better option. We'd get him for about what Nash's cap hit is without giving up the assets. Parise knows what we're all about and would fit in no problem.
This^.
I value Sauer also, but if someone will pay enough on a gamble, I'd let him go too.
Nash = ocrrectimondo, but wuld consider the contract if the cost is dirt cheap.
If Nash is not a chemistry fit here, but still has talent and production, we could still move him and the contract.

Parise - yes but especially because of Richards contract, must keep this to a short deal for more $$ and not a 5/6 year term for 6 or so.

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03-24-2012, 09:48 AM
  #160
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No..
Actually, those following the Preds will tell you that both players have excelled during extended periods of time where the other player was injured.

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03-24-2012, 09:48 AM
  #161
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What makes everyone think Staal will regain his form? He is very shy about being physical. Sure he has the occassional physical outburst when he gets pissed off but more times than not he shy shys away and that is a far cry from how he played before he got hurt. IMO if there is a deal out there and the other team wants him he's gone. I do not think he will recover. He's become a bigger version of former ranger Rod Seiling, all poke check and no body.
No one can guarantee anything, and with the best plans, there could be a futher injury.
Discounting those possibilities, Staal will "extensively" recover IMO, 100% is a lot to ask for and will take more time. But I think by next year he'll be 80-85%, and that's still a hell of a lot better than most NHL Ds.

He MIGHT be a little smarter about throwing the body.
But he won't shy away from it when necessary.

Rod Seiling was a very good defensive D, cause he both courageously and stupidly threw his body in front of shots, constantly.

But in years of watching, there maybe was 1, possibly 2 ferocious body checks,
Not gonna happen w/Staal.

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03-24-2012, 11:54 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by ocarina View Post
Nice analysis. Or not.

I would argue that Suter and Weber both benefit from each other. However, I would argue that Suter is a better player by himself because his best attributes (elite smarts, puck-movement) allow him to fit almost any team and play almost any role. If Weber doesn't have someone to give him the puck on the PP, he is not as effective.

Whoever is saying that Suter is not an elite d-man hasn't been watching him much.



Geez, why so impatient?

The guy missed the first half of the season and has had to get into game shape on the fly. Not to mention he was coming off of a concussion. Give him time, do you not remember how good he was last year? He'll be fine, panicking and trading a guy for having a down year is a really bad way to run a team.

--

Man, there is a lot of fail in this thread.
Yes, it's getting difficult to even read quite a bit in this forum these days.

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Old
03-24-2012, 06:06 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by mahonistan View Post
To be fair, there is not a Bourque, Orr, Coffee, Zubov, or Leetch in the league right now.
Fair. But legends. Who were the elite at their positions and we're some of the best of the best. I mean, you really can't even compare Staal to some of the decent Off. Def. men of this day...let alone the last day :-D

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03-24-2012, 06:12 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by ocarina View Post

Man, there is a lot of fail in this thread.
Like with so many other things, a lot of people seem to be completely hung up on what Staal is doing RIGHT NOW, with no reasonable thought really given to the past or future.

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03-25-2012, 12:11 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by NorthlandPro View Post
What makes everyone think Staal will regain his form? He is very shy about being physical. Sure he has the occassional physical outburst when he gets pissed off but more times than not he shy shys away and that is a far cry from how he played before he got hurt. IMO if there is a deal out there and the other team wants him he's gone. I do not think he will recover. He's become a bigger version of former ranger Rod Seiling, all poke check and no body.
Hey, someone else around long enough to remember Rod "Sod" Seiling. He used to take all kinds of abuse from the fans because he was so soft. Brings back some good memories of those teams; I remember the p.a. guy at Boston Garden used to refer to Arnie Brown as Arnold Brown!

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03-25-2012, 12:09 PM
  #166
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This^.
I value Sauer also, but if someone will pay enough on a gamble, I'd let him go too.
Nash = ocrrectimondo, but wuld consider the contract if the cost is dirt cheap.
If Nash is not a chemistry fit here, but still has talent and production, we could still move him and the contract.

Parise - yes but especially because of Richards contract, must keep this to a short deal for more $$ and not a 5/6 year term for 6 or so.
Why does everyone assume it's so easy to just get rid of any contracts?

As talented as Nash is, why were so many teams hesitant on trading for him? Because of his albatross contract. If Nash came here and then Sather wanted to trade him, there would be one reason why he is. He isn't producing, so why would someone than take his contract when his value is so low? I really do not want Nash here, but if it happens for a cheap steal, then so be it.

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03-25-2012, 03:00 PM
  #167
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The power play is the problem-- get a specialist like Bergeron- give him minutes only on the PP & problem solved.

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03-25-2012, 05:10 PM
  #168
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No one can guarantee anything, and with the best plans, there could be a futher injury.
Discounting those possibilities, Staal will "extensively" recover IMO, 100% is a lot to ask for and will take more time. But I think by next year he'll be 80-85%, and that's still a hell of a lot better than most NHL Ds.

He MIGHT be a little smarter about throwing the body.
But he won't shy away from it when necessary.

Rod Seiling was a very good defensive D, cause he both courageously and stupidly threw his body in front of shots, constantly.

But in years of watching, there maybe was 1, possibly 2 ferocious body checks,
Not gonna happen w/Staal.
If Rod Seiling blocked any shots it was totally by accident. He was softer than a marshmellow and that is what Staal is doing now. He is avioding contact and the stick check crap doesn't cut it and is the mark of a timid player.

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03-25-2012, 05:12 PM
  #169
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Hey, someone else around long enough to remember Rod "Sod" Seiling. He used to take all kinds of abuse from the fans because he was so soft. Brings back some good memories of those teams; I remember the p.a. guy at Boston Garden used to refer to Arnie Brown as Arnold Brown!
Box Car Arnie Brown. Decent defender another puck mover that was not overtly physical and when push came to shove, caved.

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03-25-2012, 05:21 PM
  #170
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Why does everyone assume it's so easy to just get rid of any contracts?

As talented as Nash is, why were so many teams hesitant on trading for him? Because of his albatross contract. If Nash came here and then Sather wanted to trade him, there would be one reason why he is. He isn't producing, so why would someone than take his contract when his value is so low? I really do not want Nash here, but if it happens for a cheap steal, then so be it.
If we get Nash cheap enough, we don't have to charge as much to move him.
I'm not saying it's impossible we'd take any kind of loss in that process, but I think if it's cheap enough an acquisition, the risk is minimal as to the cost of being stuck with him.

Think Hossa on a smaller scale, maybe?
Teams want but have trouble fitting, and it's greater length.

Key is to not overpay CBJ Howson.

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03-25-2012, 05:24 PM
  #171
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If Rod Seiling blocked any shots it was totally by accident. He was softer than a marshmellow and that is what Staal is doing now. He is avioding contact and the stick check crap doesn't cut it and is the mark of a timid player.
I'm sorry, that's just not true.
Seiling may have been less the stud Girardi is, but he also actively dove to take shots.
That may also be crazy, but it certainly wasn't gutless.

Sure, I prefer Ds with more complete game, but let's acknowledge the contribution.

As to MS, unless I'm overwhelmed, I stick with Staal, at least for now.

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03-25-2012, 11:39 PM
  #172
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Why would we want to Trade Stall. Hes a great D man who is still showing signs of improving offensively and is pain for forwards to play against when hes on his game. No to any trades with him.

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03-25-2012, 11:45 PM
  #173
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All of this Parise/Nash/Suter/Ryan talk is fan fodder. Sather hasn't traded assets for a top tier player in a long ass time. He's signed big names, but he grows the farm. Parise is the most likely on the list, but it's still a long shot.
And guess what were first. Maybe keeping young players that have value is good after all, instead of moving them for a bigger name. Not saying parise wouldint be a great addition but we have Richards we cant have everything. If you can move Richards than Parise is an option. That about it.

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03-27-2012, 11:23 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by NorthlandPro View Post
If Rod Seiling blocked any shots it was totally by accident. He was softer than a marshmellow and that is what Staal is doing now. He is avioding contact and the stick check crap doesn't cut it and is the mark of a timid player.
Everybody around here knows I'm no Staal lover but in fairness to him, he need's to go through an entire training camp in September before his game will get back to where it was before the concusion.

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03-27-2012, 11:28 AM
  #175
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