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Leafs win 4-3 in Shootout

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03-24-2012, 09:30 AM
  #226
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Winning games in our position at this stage of the season ranks right up there with winning exhibition games. Big deal they are meaningless.

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03-24-2012, 09:41 AM
  #227
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The point wasn't to list failed prospects, the point was to list the prospects that the Wings organization thought had more of a chance to make it to the NHL than Zetterberg and Datsyuk. If that's what people consider elite scouting, well... I'll stick with randomly drawing names out of a hat.
Within a year of drafting them, both Zetterberg and Datsyuk shot up Detroit's prospect rankings. Their stock rose so rapidly that both were "can't miss" by the time they arrived in North America.

Like I already said, you don't seem to grasp the nature of what a prospect is.

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03-24-2012, 10:07 AM
  #228
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"Play the kids", how difficult could this concept really be?.

Wonder how many more games the Leafs would have won this season by playing Kadri instead of Lombardi or Armstrong all season?

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03-24-2012, 10:11 AM
  #229
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"Play the kids", how difficult could this concept really be?.

Wonder how many more games the Leafs would have won this season by playing Kadri instead of Lombardi or Armstrong all season?
Probably none but Kadri would be slightly ahead on the learning curve.

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03-24-2012, 10:12 AM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
"Play the kids", how difficult could this concept really be?.

Wonder how many more games the Leafs would have won this season by playing Kadri instead of Lombardi or Armstrong all season?
Who knows, but you can bet Kadri would be further along in development, which is something of great importance.

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03-24-2012, 10:13 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
"Play the kids", how difficult could this concept really be?.

Wonder how many more games the Leafs would have won this season by playing Kadri instead of Lombardi or Armstrong all season?
Exactly!

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03-24-2012, 10:25 AM
  #232
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The players will never try to lose.

If you are a player on the Leafs you want to keep your job. If a top end talent comes in, someone loses their job. So they dont care who the Leafs draft.

But the coaching staff and management can put the team in the best situation to lose games. Suddenly call a bunch of guys up from the minors to "see what we have". Play a goalie with very little experience. Give minutes to guys who cant handle it.

The players will still try to win, but you just increase the chances of them losing.

There is a school of thought that constant losing can be bad for a team's development, but I dont see any value in going 3-7 in your last 10 vs going 1-9. I dont think the 3 and 7 team will go into the off season with their heads held high.
They were able to blow a 2 goal lead in the third,(rarely happened even under Wilson's run and gun) and Carlyle sends out Bozak, Connolly and his AHL call up for the shoot out. I suggest that the coaching staff tried to hold back a little without being too obvious.

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03-24-2012, 10:31 AM
  #233
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Who knows, but you can bet Kadri would be further along in development, which is something of great importance.
No you cant bet that. Im sorry, but for whatever reason TML management thinks that Kadri should be playing in the minors.

If they absolutely though that the best thing for Nazem's development was playing in the NHL then he would be.

He may actually have one us a game or two more who knows, but I am going to take TML's front office's opinion over this fanboards every time.

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03-24-2012, 10:35 AM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
"Play the kids", how difficult could this concept really be?.

Wonder how many more games the Leafs would have won this season by playing Kadri instead of Lombardi or Armstrong all season?
About 40 IMO

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03-24-2012, 10:37 AM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
"Play the kids", how difficult could this concept really be?.

Wonder how many more games the Leafs would have won this season by playing Kadri instead of Lombardi or Armstrong all season?
Good question, our record is much better when kadri is in the lineup.

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03-24-2012, 10:41 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
"Play the kids", how difficult could this concept really be?.

Wonder how many more games the Leafs would have won this season by playing Kadri instead of Lombardi or Armstrong all season?
Mess they are being played but mostly at the AHL level and they are playing to make the play-offs, in pursuit of the Calder Cup and after this NHL regular season is over they will still be playing hockey when the main Leaf team will be out on the golf course.

On the Marlies they are getting their games together and as we saw in last nights game, Kadri was a stand out and Hamilton also looked like a good fit, the last time Kadri was up he did very little to claim a spot and that was why he was sent down.

These young guys will be a part of the team going forward and are just a call away to be brought back up.

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03-24-2012, 10:55 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by KlattNazty View Post
He may actually have one us a game or two more who knows, but I am going to take TML's front office's opinion over this fanboards every time.
TML front office has delivered 4 straight bottom 10 overall finishes, so not sure hitching your wagon of belief to their opinions is the wisest course of action, unless you don't mind constant disappointment.

Usually its success and not failure that people tend to migrate towards to put trust in.

Toronto's brain trust being the only NHL team to not make the playoffs in a Cap World is an good of example of what NOT to do.

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03-24-2012, 10:55 AM
  #238
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Leafs were outshot 46-17, let's not get too carried away with the win.

It was goaltending that made the win possible not the play of a couple call-ups.

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03-24-2012, 11:00 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Leafs were outshot 46-17, let's not get too carried away with the win.

It was goaltending that made the win possible not the play of a couple call-ups.
No question Reimer was the difference maker, however without Kadri's contribution the Leafs still lose that game regardless of strong goalie tending.

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03-24-2012, 11:05 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by KlattNazty View Post
No you cant bet that. Im sorry, but for whatever reason TML management thinks that Kadri should be playing in the minors.

If they absolutely though that the best thing for Nazem's development was playing in the NHL then he would be.

He may actually have one us a game or two more who knows, but I am going to take TML's front office's opinion over this fanboards every time.
You can bet that.

Most players endure trials to make the NHL. Playing through the good and bad times. Kadri hasn't had the chance to do that. He barely got to play at all before he faced minute cuts and demotions.

Like Mess said, TML front office has delivered us nothing but mediocrity.

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03-24-2012, 11:09 AM
  #241
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Steckel and Crabb received more ice-time than Kessel in this game.

In OT it looked like like they were out there every second shift trying to defend the loser point, as Leafs wanting to take their chances in circus silly time shootout.

It worked for the win (this time), but one has to wonder if this is something we will see more of now.. The low shot totals in recent games is also indicative of an almost non existent offensive attack being mustered.

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03-24-2012, 11:14 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by MoreMogilny View Post
You can bet that.

Most players endure trials to make the NHL. Playing through the good and bad times. Kadri hasn't had the chance to do that. He barely got to play at all before he faced minute cuts and demotions.

Like Mess said, TML front office has delivered us nothing but mediocrity.
So far, yes. But the TML front office was born anew what like 3 and a half years ago? I know burke said the whole "this is not a 5 year rebuild" but in all honesty if you guys expected to contend before then with the TERRIBLE organization we had before Burke got here, then I guess we have different expectations.

Kadri is great, i love his skills, and his attitude. I just am more faithful in the front office than others, and thats fine. What I am saying is you cannot guarantee success or failure, or heightened development either way. Maybe Kadri could have been up here, playing in a bad environment with a brand new coach, ****** linemates, no hope of playoffs, and players giving up on the season around him left right and centre.

Or he can play with several guys who will be his future team mates, and potentially linemates in some cases, and he can go to the playoffs and do damage there.

Its really not something worth arguing as there is no definitive answer, but by and large every time I see Kadri play with TML there have been improvements. And he does continue to work in the AHL when I watch too, so what if it isnt at the NHL level, so long as he is developing.

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03-24-2012, 11:15 AM
  #243
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Mess they are being played but mostly at the AHL level and they are playing to make the play-offs, in pursuit of the Calder Cup and after this NHL regular season is over they will still be playing hockey when the main Leaf team will be out on the golf course.

On the Marlies they are getting their games together and as we saw in last nights game, Kadri was a stand out and Hamilton also looked like a good fit, the last time Kadri was up he did very little to claim a spot and that was why he was sent down.

These young guys will be a part of the team going forward and are just a call away to be brought back up.
Jake Gardiner will also be a part of the Calder Cup playoffs this year, and I'm fairly comfortable saying that his development was not stunted by plying his trade at the NHL level this year during his development.

Since the opportunity is similar for Gardiner as it is for Kadri post Leafs season end, than the only thing lost was NHL experience from the later's situation.

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03-24-2012, 11:20 AM
  #244
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So far, yes. But the TML front office was born anew what like 3 and a half years ago? I know burke said the whole "this is not a 5 year rebuild" but in all honesty if you guys expected to contend before then with the TERRIBLE organization we had before Burke got here, then I guess we have different expectations.

Kadri is great, i love his skills, and his attitude. I just am more faithful in the front office than others, and thats fine. What I am saying is you cannot guarantee success or failure, or heightened development either way. Maybe Kadri could have been up here, playing in a bad environment with a brand new coach, ****** linemates, no hope of playoffs, and players giving up on the season around him left right and centre.

Or he can play with several guys who will be his future team mates, and potentially linemates in some cases, and he can go to the playoffs and do damage there.

Its really not something worth arguing as there is no definitive answer, but by and large every time I see Kadri play with TML there have been improvements. And he does continue to work in the AHL when I watch too, so what if it isnt at the NHL level, so long as he is developing.
I never expected a contender in 3 years, no, and I want to see Burke and the rest of the management team continue to carry out this plan, but they can and have made mistakes.

Would playing young players like Kadri over Lombardi or Armstrong really put us in a worse position? It's hard to say that it would. To me, Kadri seems to be ready for a legitimate shot at the NHL. Where we sit, wait, and watch as he goes through ups and downs as he starts his NHL career. The AHL has been a good development route for him, but I think this year would have been a great jumping off point for his NHL career instead of stagnating in the AHL. That's not to say more AHL time hasn't benefitted him, but I think he would have gotten valuable experience with the Leafs that he just can't get with the Marlies.

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03-24-2012, 11:23 AM
  #245
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No question Reimer was the difference maker, however without Kadri's contribution the Leafs still lose that game regardless of strong goalie tending.
We don't know that.

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03-24-2012, 11:28 AM
  #246
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Weird how everyone's talking about how Kadri was NHL ready when he was sent down and put in shutdown roles by Eakins along with Colborne because they really weren't ready.

Might have something to do with both of them not producing as much with the Marlies cause they were asked to round out their defensive game which is a lot more important in the NHL then just scoring the odd pretty goal. You know that thing called development.

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03-24-2012, 11:29 AM
  #247
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We don't know that.
Yes we do

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03-24-2012, 11:35 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Leafs were outshot 46-17, let's not get too carried away with the win.

It was goaltending that made the win possible not the play of a couple call-ups.
I agree but we were playing a team that has been playing very well lately and has one of the best goal tenders in the League but Kadri and Reimer were key to winning this game and Hamilton didn't look out-of-place either.

If we had Reimer playing this well all year we would have been in the play-offs.

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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Steckel and Crabb received more ice-time than Kessel in this game.

In OT it looked like like they were out there every second shift trying to defend the loser point, as Leafs wanting to take their chances in circus silly time shootout.

It worked for the win (this time), but one has to wonder if this is something we will see more of now.. The low shot totals in recent games is also indicative of an almost non existent offensive attack being mustered.
Lets face it Kessel is not a checking forward and in a tight game when the other team puts out Kovalchuk for as many minutes as he played last night you play Steckel and Crabb in that match up.

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03-24-2012, 11:36 AM
  #249
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Jake Gardiner will also be a part of the Calder Cup playoffs this year, and I'm fairly comfortable saying that his development was not stunted by plying his trade at the NHL level this year during his development.

Since the opportunity is similar for Gardiner as it is for Kadri post Leafs season end, than the only thing lost was NHL experience from the later's situation.
Gardiner was good enough to stay up, Kadri wasn't. You can speculate to fit your agenda anything you want but you're fooling nobody Mess.

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03-24-2012, 11:39 AM
  #250
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I never expected a contender in 3 years, no, and I want to see Burke and the rest of the management team continue to carry out this plan, but they can and have made mistakes.

Would playing young players like Kadri over Lombardi or Armstrong really put us in a worse position? It's hard to say that it would. To me, Kadri seems to be ready for a legitimate shot at the NHL. Where we sit, wait, and watch as he goes through ups and downs as he starts his NHL career. The AHL has been a good development route for him, but I think this year would have been a great jumping off point for his NHL career instead of stagnating in the AHL. That's not to say more AHL time hasn't benefitted him, but I think he would have gotten valuable experience with the Leafs that he just can't get with the Marlies.
Burke has done some good things and he's done some bad things.

He's been right with some decisions and wrong with other decisions.

The injury to Reimer from the blatant unpenalized head shot in Montreal was the beginning of the end of this season.

Can't blame Burke for the injury.

However, we knew the structure wasn't there with Ron Wilson, many people talked about it. The team fell apart and that comes when you don't have a good foundation. Sticking with RW was one of Burke's mistakes, something many knew before this year began. There are other young teams out there playing well.

Other people called the rebuild huge and suggested at least 5 years, and had Burke come in with that attitude who knows. Burke's 1st. year in charge was perhaps his worst, but perhaps that changed a few months later when he saw the team get lit up late in preseason. When he admits he came to think maybe he was wrong. He wasn't doing a slow rebuild, he said he wasn't, but perhaps that is because he just wasn't informed / knowledgeable enough about what had to be done. He was unprepared and spoke out of turn.

I think right now is the best it has been since Burke took over.

I think to take the next step Burke has some hard decisions to make this summer, I do think he needs to move some players that some fans probably won't be happy about. Kind of like when he had to move McCabe in Vancouver for the future of the franchise.

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