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Worst GM In Montreal's History

View Poll Results: Who's The Worst?
Irving Grundman 12 4.74%
Rejean Houle 205 81.03%
Bob Gainey 20 7.91%
Pierre Gauthier 16 6.32%
Voters: 253. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-24-2012, 05:44 PM
  #126
Fish on The Sand
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Those were the two deals I was referring to as well, BTW. And it was Weinrich coming back with Hackett; Manson was headed Chicago's way.

For Damphousse, Montreal got a 1st rounder. Not saying it was a good deal, just that a 1st isn't nothing.

Also: Corson wasn't a 3rd-liner. He was a solid scoring line player who added grit at that time. The problem was that he was up there in age (for that time period), and he didn't have the body to be durable, so he was already breaking down. Anyway, we agree that it was a bad deal, I'm only arguing it because I see the logic in targeting Corson, so it wasn't out of left field . . .

I seem to remember us getting a first rounder for Vinny as well, but hockeydb has it as a 1999 5th and 2000 2nd. I seem to recall the Hossa selection was the first rounder we picked up in the deal. Doing more research it seems my initial memory was correct. Its not as bad as I initially made it sound, but it still disappointing that between our 2 best centers all we had was Corson to show for it. Also, Corson wasn't a solid scorer. Yes, he did score 21 in his first full season with us, but that was it. That was only his second 20 goal season since 1991. A team trying to win a cup would not have had players like Corson regularly playing in the top 6, and that's part of the reason we were so terrible.

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Old
03-24-2012, 06:22 PM
  #127
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Rejean Houle and it'S not even close. People who didn't vote for him know nothing about this team. He set us back so much that we're still trying to recover.

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Old
03-24-2012, 06:43 PM
  #128
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As far as the latter point on credit, and specifically the part in bold: I think the credit goes to the boss. We're not privy to all of the nuts and bolts of the operation, insofar as we don't know whether X player was the selection of the head amateur scout, or whether the GM went and scouted a bit himself and was adamant about selecting a specific player, or whether two amateur scouts had seen the bulk of that player on a given year and pushed the selection hard. Unless we know these specific details, I find it difficult to give credit to one individual over another. And since, ultimately, it's the General Managers' responsibility to ensure the draft adheres to a certain level of success and selects players of a certain style/philosophy, and since the General Managers' job is exclusively about staffing properly, then I say he gets the credit as consistently as he ought to get the blame.

And, frankly, I find people far more willing to blame GMs for poor draft records, while there's a collective inclination to credit head scouts for good records.
So I guess it's all about being consequent, which you are. And which I am. I will always praise or credit the head scout for the draft. Will always blame the GM for the signings and the trades. Will also blame the pro scouts for not stopping some trades that made no sense. Yet, this is all about the knowledge WE have. Possible that some of our GM's had a real say in one draft pick they ended up seeing. Possible that a pro scout was TOTALLY against a move a GM made. Yet, you get the idea that if a move was so dumb, that a pro-scout would be totally against it and would find a way to stop the madness....

But really, I can't praise the GM for draft picks especially when in the interviews by the GM's, we keep hearing how "our guys that have seen him play say that....". Never have I heard a GM going with his personal opinion of player. Or if it happened, that's totally an exception. So a bigger part of the praise for hiring a guy. A little part of the praise for keeping the good guys. But the most praise for the guy actually doing the job.

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Old
03-24-2012, 06:48 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by wedge View Post
Rejean Houle and it'S not even close. People who didn't vote for him know nothing about this team. He set us back so much that we're still trying to recover.
No doubt that he set us back. But to say that we're still to recover is more an example of how bad our present management is than anything else. Houle has left the management in 2000. The trade that set us back happened in freakin 1995. You could say that the Turgeon trade or the Damphousse trade wasn't that great but set us back that much? Maybe but that's still 1999 for Damphousse.

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Old
03-24-2012, 07:24 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
I think some, like you, exaggerate Houle's incompetence. He was bad enough without the exaggeration, frankly. Cassels was gone way, way before Houle, for example. And Houle didn't toss away prospects: the prospect depth was bare when Houle came in. The only real prospect that I can think of being dealt was Conroy.

Some of the players you list as having been drafted (Brad Brown) were drafted before Houle came in, too. And to claim that Houle's regime didn't put skating at the forefront is true, but you must note that the method of drafting had been that way prior to Houle's reign as well (hence Brad Brown, Bilodeau, Stevenson, Vallis, and Charron).
I wasnt trying to exaggerate Houles incompetence, as you say there is no need to do that. However, it would appear I was reckless and wrong in the information I provided so thanks for the corrections.

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Old
03-24-2012, 07:32 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
So I guess it's all about being consequent, which you are. And which I am. I will always praise or credit the head scout for the draft. Will always blame the GM for the signings and the trades. Will also blame the pro scouts for not stopping some trades that made no sense. Yet, this is all about the knowledge WE have. Possible that some of our GM's had a real say in one draft pick they ended up seeing. Possible that a pro scout was TOTALLY against a move a GM made. Yet, you get the idea that if a move was so dumb, that a pro-scout would be totally against it and would find a way to stop the madness....

But really, I can't praise the GM for draft picks especially when in the interviews by the GM's, we keep hearing how "our guys that have seen him play say that....". Never have I heard a GM going with his personal opinion of player. Or if it happened, that's totally an exception. So a bigger part of the praise for hiring a guy. A little part of the praise for keeping the good guys. But the most praise for the guy actually doing the job.
Yup, I understand that we have different vantage points on this.

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03-24-2012, 07:42 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by HarryHabs View Post
Houle is the worse yes but he was thrown in the wolves by Corey who had no idea what he was doing.

Gainey/Gauthier on the other hand had GM experience and completely mismanaged assets on this team.

It's ok to trade guys like Ribeiro, Latendresse, S.Kostitsyn and Grabovski if they don't fit with the team but get some ****ing return for your value. Those 4 guys were traded for Niinimaa, Pouliot, Ellis, Boyd, Pateryn and a 5th. Only ****ing Pateryn is left from those trades and most of the players we traded away are still young. It's ridiculous.

The Gomez trade just puts it over the top. To trade a great young prospect who is developing to be a solid top pair guy for an over the hill veteran who makes more than most stars in the league was brutal. Add to the trade Higgins, who was a solid top 9 player.

The team drafted well under Gainey (thank you Timmins) but I have never seen assets being mismanaged like that in my life.

Only trade I could say we won with Gainey was the Pacioretty/Gorges trade for Rivet. Every other is up for debate or a loss.
Honestly, that one trade can be credited more to Timmins than Gainey if you consider the former is who drafted Pacioretty. Gorges was nothing special at the time and Rivet was solid for San Jose, at least according to their fans. Present day, it looks fantastic but it wasn't quite the accomplishment as far as I am concerned. Still a good return on Rivet though.

With this in mind, Gainey is damn close to after his abysmal mishandling of assets. We are still enduring the disaster he left behind. What is astonishing is how the team managed a miracle run to the ECF.

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Old
03-24-2012, 07:54 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Yup, I understand that we have different vantage points on this.
So be it. There's actually no wrong answers in this. Just different point of view. And that's fine with me.

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Old
03-25-2012, 11:33 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Honestly, that one trade can be credited more to Timmins than Gainey if you consider the former is who drafted Pacioretty. Gorges was nothing special at the time and Rivet was solid for San Jose, at least according to their fans. Present day, it looks fantastic but it wasn't quite the accomplishment as far as I am concerned. Still a good return on Rivet though.

With this in mind, Gainey is damn close to after his abysmal mishandling of assets. We are still enduring the disaster he left behind. What is astonishing is how the team managed a miracle run to the ECF.
+ A Conference Championship with carbonneau behind the bench...


These two events have distorted badly the real value of this team.

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Old
03-25-2012, 06:18 PM
  #135
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As much as I hate Gauthier, Houle was the worst.

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03-25-2012, 06:18 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
+ A Conference Championship with carbonneau behind the bench...


These two events have distorted badly the real value of this team.
1st in conference = everything went right, awesome PP, no injuries, rest of the conference sucked

ECF = mostly Halak saving our bacon all year. We made the playoffs by the skin of our teeth in the weakest EC ever. Halak actually won 2 regular season games 1-0 that year... if he had lost one of those games we wouldn't have made it.

Some people were fooled by this but a lot weren't. I can't say I'm surprised management was because our management has sucked balls for nearly 10 years.

I voted Gainey simply because Houle had no budget, bad scouts going in, bad president and a stupid ownership group who wanted to get rid of the team while Gainey had everything going for him (best head scout hired by A.Savard, a decent team full of good young prospects, a steady stream of good young players thanks to Timmins and good luck in the 05 draft, ownership with deep pockets who gave him every freedom, his solid reputation going in, etc). Houle was worse, but Gainey did worse considering what he should/could have done.

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Old
03-26-2012, 02:15 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Captain Saku View Post
Houle is the worse.

Gainey improved the team but the Gomez and Ribeiro trades alone put him a close 2nd.
He also brought in Kovalev for next to nothing and got him to sign here. Brought Bonk and Huet here from LA for Garon. We got Gorges and Pacs for Rivet and a 5th.

So you have a GM who managed to bring in the closest thing we have had to a superstar winger in as long as I can remember, a dependable goalie who more than performed adequately when Theodore wasn't earning his contract, and traded an aging D-man and a throw away pick for our current workhorse shut down defenseman and the best young scorer we have had in god knows how long. He also drafted Price.

The Gomez deal wound up being more than one-sided, but the rest of the moves made that summer ended in the team going to the Eastern Conference Finals, something not done since before Houle traded Roy. Ya Halak was awesome, but Cammaleri (who people were saying was overpaid and too small) was clutch. Gauthier hasn't had enough time to really show whether he knows what he's doing, don't think he'll get it and I'm not too upset by that.

Gainey was not as bad as people are saying he is now. The one decision I would have made differently was the Gomez deal. Koivu was a better leader and could have easily topped Gomez in the point department. Still would have traded Ribs. Definition of a soft player with a juvenile attitude. Would have liked to see a better return but given his rep at the time the return wasn't going to be great.

The guy who traded one of the best goalies to ever play when he was still in his prime for a return that paled in comparison gets my vote.

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Old
03-26-2012, 02:24 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
1st in conference = everything went right, awesome PP, no injuries, rest of the conference sucked

ECF = mostly Halak saving our bacon all year. We made the playoffs by the skin of our teeth in the weakest EC ever. Halak actually won 2 regular season games 1-0 that year... if he had lost one of those games we wouldn't have made it.

Some people were fooled by this but a lot weren't. I can't say I'm surprised management was because our management has sucked balls for nearly 10 years.

I voted Gainey simply because Houle had no budget, bad scouts going in, bad president and a stupid ownership group who wanted to get rid of the team while Gainey had everything going for him (best head scout hired by A.Savard, a decent team full of good young prospects, a steady stream of good young players thanks to Timmins and good luck in the 05 draft, ownership with deep pockets who gave him every freedom, his solid reputation going in, etc). Houle was worse, but Gainey did worse considering what he should/could have done.
So, Montreal finishes first in the conference and it's a joke because the rest of the conference sucks. Then they finish in the last playoff berth and it's a joke because the rest of the conference sucks. And if something went wrong in either of those seasons, like an extra loss, then they wouldn't have the same record, and may not have made the playoffs. I see. . .

Houle had no budget? Why does this myth persist? Montreal spent above league average during Houle's years.

If Houle had bad scouts, poor guy. Dealt bad cards, I suppose. Except for the fact that he's the manager and responsible for those scouts. It's not uncommon for new managers to fire scouts, so to say he had a bad staff is damning commentary about him as the manager.

I won't argue that Gainey could have done better, but the question is about who is the worst GM. There's no qualifying the answer; Houle was the worst. And there's no contest between him and Gainey.

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03-26-2012, 07:11 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Claimed Off Waivers View Post
Houle is the worst GM in the history of hockey, maybe even in all of professional sports.
Houle > Milbury

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03-26-2012, 10:40 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by wedge View Post
Rejean Houle and it'S not even close. People who didn't vote for him know nothing about this team. He set us back so much that we're still trying to recover.
Its not just about the trade. Look at Habs draft picks in that period, its absolutely putrid.

In that way we are still recovering, we acquired very little value trough the draft during that period.

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03-26-2012, 11:37 AM
  #141
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I honestly consider the Turgeon trade to be worse than the Roy trade. At least with the Roy trade you can understand the logic. Houle believed he was getting a future franchise goalie (Thibault), a future top six power forward (Kovalenko) and a top six winger who could compliment his number one center immediately (Rucinsky) for an aging goaltender and a bottom sixer. He was wrong by every stretch of the imagination (only Rucinsky delivered.

Now look at the Turgeon trade. You give up Rory Fitzpatrick (defenceman with good size you drafted just two years prior in the second round) and Craig Conroy (centerman with size, also young as only drafted 5 years prior, looked at least like a third line center then due to his lack of production at that point) ALONG WITH YOUR LEADING SCORER FROM THE PREVIOUS SEASON WHO JUST TURNED AROUND HIS GAME AFTER A SLUMP for Murray Baron (weak bruiser), a fifth round pick and Shayne Corson. Corson, who might be tough as nails with a scoring touch was nearing the end of his career due to a series of injuries. He had a few last good seasons with Koivu but nothing like Turgeon would have brought. Turgeon proved to have five more production years in him before going down to a half point a game and retiring a decade later.

The only logic out of it was Houle wanted a natural winger instead of placing Turgeon on the wing (despite the fact he was producing) and wanted a tough guy in Baron. But he gave up a decent prospect in Fitzpatrick and also gave up Conroy, who showed he was better than just a third line center and ended up being the best known centerman for Jarome Iginla. Take Turgeon out of the deal and you get a trade that's slightly in Montreal's favour (Conroy/Fitzpatrick for Corson/Baron/5th) but put him in and if you're not a shoe beater you wouldn't make it.

Houle is the worst GM with Corey as the worst President. Montreal lost two all-stars and had nothing to show for it.

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Old
03-26-2012, 12:50 PM
  #142
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The only logic out of it was Houle wanted a natural winger instead of placing Turgeon on the wing (despite the fact he was producing) (...) Take Turgeon out of the deal and you get a trade that's slightly in Montreal's favour (Conroy/Fitzpatrick for Corson/Baron/5th) but put him in and if you're not a shoe beater you wouldn't make it.
Turgeon wanted out, remember. The gutless puke asked to be traded because he didn't want to be the #3 center behind Damphousse & Koivu, and he didn't want to play on the wing. It was still an awful deal, but the tin man couldn't take the pressure of being a French star in Montreal. Worst captain in franchise history AINEC.

I always think of that trade in that context. It was bad asset management (gee where have we heard that before?) but I never shed a tear for Turgeon's departure.

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03-26-2012, 12:55 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
Turgeon wanted out, remember. The gutless puke asked to be traded because he didn't want to be the #3 center behind Damphousse & Koivu, and he didn't want to play on the wing. It was still an awful deal, but the tin man couldn't take the pressure of being a French star in Montreal. Worst captain in franchise history AINEC.

I always think of that trade in that context. It was bad asset management (gee where have we heard that before?) but I never shed a tear for Turgeon's departure.
I've always wondered if making Turgeon captain was one last parting shot at Pat Roy by Tremblay. In the 87 WJHC hockey bench clearer, Roy's brother was doubled teamed and kicked by a Russian. All the while, Turgeon sat on the bench while the rest of his team was defending their outnumbered mates. Because of that, I'm guessing Turgeon and Roy weren't exactly friends while teammates on the Habs.

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