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The defence since Markov's return

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Old
03-22-2012, 04:27 PM
  #51
OneSharpMarble
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nah... let's pretend that everything's fine and not plan for the worst. That's the PG way. Boy does Markov ever look awesome out there btw, it's like he hasn't skipped a beat.

Is that better?
Yes because waiting longer than 5 games is a recipe for disaster, just sitting on our hands when we already know how Markov will be for the rest of his contract.

Most here that actually have a clue and realize getting back up to game speed takes more than 5 games but lets just stop for a second, take a deep breath and thank god you are nowhere near the team. Markov has been our best player for what over 10 years now and according to you 5 games is enough to write him off. Thanks for sharing.

5 GAMES!

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03-22-2012, 04:34 PM
  #52
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Yes because waiting longer than 5 games is a recipe for disaster, just sitting on our hands when we already know how Markov will be for the rest of his contract.
Well, it was a disaster this year wasn't it? Last year was no better right? If we hadn't have got a patchwork fix in Wiz we would've missed the playoffs. I mean how many times do you need to get burned by the oven before you realize that it's hot?

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Most here that actually have a clue and realize getting back up to game speed takes more than 5 games but lets just stop for a second, take a deep breath and thank god you are nowhere near the team.
Yes, thank God for that. Thank God for the fact that the club doesn't read this message board and didn't have ANY backup plan for Markov's absence this year. Thank God for Campioli and praise Jesus Christ for signing Thomas Kaberle! Also, thank God for trading away Ryan McDonaugh which helped get us into this mess in the first place.

Yes, it's a good thing that our managers have done such a bang up job at getting us to 15th place in the East and wasting assets along the way! Praise the Lord.
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Markov has been our best player for what over 10 years now and according to you 5 games is enough to write him off. Thanks for sharing.
Where did I say we should write him off? Where did I say he won't improve? Like I actually wrote... hopefully he will.

All I said was that we should prepare for the worst. I don't see how you can argue against this position esp considering that we didn't do it this year and it led to disaster. Sure as hell seems like common sense to me.
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5 GAMES!
That's right. We're at the end of the season and he's played 5 freaking games. That's exactly my point. The fact that you actually have an emoticon here is beyond ironic.


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03-22-2012, 05:05 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well, it was a disaster this year wasn't it? Last year was no better right? If we hadn't have got a patchwork fix in Wiz we would've missed the playoffs. I mean how many times do you need to get burned by the oven before you realize that it's hot?


Yes, thank God for that. Thank God for the fact that the club doesn't read this message board and didn't have ANY backup plan for Markov's absence this year. Thank God for Campioli and praise Jesus Christ for signing Thomas Kaberle! Also, thank God for trading away Ryan McDonaugh which helped get us into this mess in the first place.

Yes, it's a good thing that our managers have done such a bang up job at getting us to 15th place in the East and wasting assets along the way! Praise the Lord.

Where did I say we should write him off? Where did I say he won't improve? Like I actually wrote... hopefully he will.

All I said was that we should prepare for the worst. I don't see how you can argue against this position esp considering that we didn't do it this year and it led to disaster. Sure as hell seems like common sense to me.

That's right. We're at the end of the season and he's played 5 freaking games. That's exactly my point. The fact that you actually have an emoticon here is beyond ironic.
There was many problems this year, if you think Markov was the only one you should try and keep up. You think it is pretty easy to have a back up plan for losing a top pairing dman? I guess in your world they grow on trees.

"Prepare for the worst" Why I don't hear you whining about having another starting goaltender waiting behind Price? Or maybe another top 6 dmen waiting incase every active dman we have goes down. Do you have something intelligent to add or just these tired over used cliches you try to use to bash managment?

I need emoticons to deal with comments like "The fact he doesn't look great reinforces my belief we can't count on him (markov) for much next season" because honestly I can't read some of this **** without laughing out loud. 5 games after a possible career ending injury and multiple surguries and since he hasn't been perfect you are writing him off. How do you expect anyone to not laugh at you? You are worse than the montreal media.

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03-22-2012, 05:13 PM
  #54
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There was many problems this year, if you think Markov was the only one you should try and keep up.
They have nothing to do with what we're talking about here. So don't try to change the subject.
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You think it is pretty easy to have a back up plan for losing a top pairing dman? I guess in your world they grow on trees.
Are you Stephane Dionne now? Give me a break man. These guys are GMs, I can understand it the first time. I can understand it the second time. But to not be prepared for it this year is inexcusable. Not unless you are actually rebuilding. Instead, we made stupid trades on our way down in the standings. So it was doubly stupid.
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"Prepare for the worst" Why I don't hear you whining about having another starting goaltender waiting behind Price? Or maybe another top 6 dmen waiting incase every active dman we have goes down. Do you have something intelligent to add or just these tired over used cliches you try to use to bash managment?
If Price misses 150 out of his next 200 games then yeah, I'd say you better have a backup plan. How is it that you still don't understand this?

This little problem didn't just spring up on these guys man... He was coming off major surgery and had missed a ton of games over the past few years. YES we should've anticipated this. Only an idiot (like Gauthier) couldn't see it coming.

See how right now I'm saying we should plan for his absence NEXT year? I said this LAST year about this season too. So did many people on this board. Don't pretend like this was some fluke out of nowhere. What are you going to say if/when the same thing happens next year? "Geez how could we have known this?" Give me a break man...
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I need emoticons to deal with comments like "The fact he doesn't look great reinforces my belief we can't count on him (markov) for much next season" because honestly I can't read some of this **** without laughing out loud. 5 games after a possible career ending injury and multiple surguries and since he hasn't been perfect you are writing him off. How do you expect anyone to not laugh at you? You are worse than the montreal media.
Again, I didn't write him off. I said that he hasn't looked good. I also said that we should plan for the worst. The fact that he's only played 5 games so far this year just reinforces my point.


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03-22-2012, 05:15 PM
  #55
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I know it's going to take Markov some time to get back into game shape, but has anyone else noticed our defence hasn't looked very good since his return? Sure the PK is great, but 5 on 5 they have been getting caught/beat left and right, no big hits, poor coverage, etc.

The guy I've noticed the most is Emelin. Since Markov has been back, Emelin has looked out of place at times, been caught flat footed, and i can't remember the last big hit he's thrown. I wonder if he really hurt himself when he blocked that shot a few games ago?
I havent really noticed much of a difference in the defense. Its been consistently bad. What Markov has brought is some vision and lots of rust, but I dont think the D has necessarily got worse due to his arrival.

anytime, one of your pairings is weber-campoli, you are just asking for problems as a unit.

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03-22-2012, 06:06 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
They have nothing to do with what we're talking about here. So don't try to change the subject.

Are you Stephane Dionne now? Give me a break man. These guys are GMs, I can understand it the first time. I can understand it the second time. But to not be prepared for it this year is inexcusable. Not unless you are actually rebuilding. Instead, we made stupid trades on our way down in the standings. So it was doubly stupid.

If Price misses 150 out of his next 200 games then yeah, I'd say you better have a backup plan. How is it that you still don't understand this?

This little problem didn't just spring up on these guys man... He was coming off major surgery and had missed a ton of games over the past few years. YES we should've anticipated this. Only an idiot (like Gauthier) couldn't see it coming.

See how right now I'm saying we should plan for his absence NEXT year? I said this LAST year about this season too. So did many people on this board. Don't pretend like this was some fluke out of nowhere. What are you going to say if/when the same thing happens next year? "Geez how could we have known this?" Give me a break man...

Again, I didn't write him off. I said that he hasn't looked good. I also said that we should plan for the worst. The fact that he's only played 5 games so far this year just reinforces my point.
I guess when a doctor tells you something you say "**** what do you know about healing and the body?. I am gonna go ask my buddies on hfboard because in hindsight they are always right"

Markov was expected back early, you just can't seem to get it through your mind that gauthier wasn't sitting there thinking "geez how can I **** this team? Oh thats right I will sign markov long term knowing full well he wont play this year" Use some common sense for crying out loud. YOu think they are going to run out and make a huge trade against the advice of medical professionals? Give me your magic ball miss Cleo.

As reguards to your first point yes the coaching is a much bigger factor than markov. I see you trying to pin everything on his signing in a vain/sad attempt to blame gauthier.

I am sure managment will monitor his progress in these games and over the offseason, 5 games is not enough to determine sweet **** all let alone the mans career a year from now.

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03-22-2012, 06:39 PM
  #57
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Think our current defensive woes has more to do with Markov returning with the purpose of getting back into game shape or more so with Diaz getting injured the game before he returned?

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03-22-2012, 07:32 PM
  #58
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Markov has been brutal turned inside out numerous times beaten to pucks he should be all over and terrible passes.

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03-22-2012, 08:41 PM
  #59
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I guess when a doctor tells you something you say "**** what do you know about healing and the body?. I am gonna go ask my buddies on hfboard because in hindsight they are always right"
Well, we've been right more often than management has.

Look, at this point nobody should give a crap about what the doctors say. He's missed a billion games in a row with two or three serious injuries to the same knee. If you need a doctor to tell you that your player is an injury risk, then I'd suggest that you're seeing the wrong kind of doctor.
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Markov was expected back early, you just can't seem to get it through your mind that gauthier wasn't sitting there thinking "geez how can I **** this team? Oh thats right I will sign markov long term knowing full well he wont play this year" Use some common sense for crying out loud. YOu think they are going to run out and make a huge trade against the advice of medical professionals? Give me your magic ball miss Cleo.
I don't think PG tried to screw over the team on purpose. If he was, I'd at least give him credit for that in some warped effort towards a rebuild. He screwed over the team unintentionally though, wasted assets and stuck us with dumb contracts along the way to last place - and that's why he's an idiot.

As for Markov being "expected back early" again, you have to be completely brain dead to not know that there was a very good chance he'd get hurt. Everyone seemed to know this except you Ozymandias and PG. I'm not sure why this is such a surprise to you.

PG has managed via wishful thinking and desperation. That's why we are where we are today.
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As reguards to your first point yes the coaching is a much bigger factor than markov. I see you trying to pin everything on his signing in a vain/sad attempt to blame gauthier.
First, I'm not sure where I mentioned coaching at all. It has nothing to do with anything here. So why are you trying to change the subject?

Second, if I agreed with you on the coaching being bad (and it has nothing to do with anything I've said here) - who's responsible for hiring the coach?

Third, you have it backwards. You seem to think that I'm out to get Gauthier and thus take every move and spin it in a negative way. Actually, those moves don't need spinning. They were stupid moves and THAT's why I think the guy is incompetent.
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I am sure managment will monitor his progress in these games and over the offseason, 5 games is not enough to determine sweet **** all let alone the mans career a year from now.
It's not the 5 games that have determined anything dude. It's the last three seasons of injuries that indicate that he's an injury risk. As for the last five games, he hasn't looked all that great. You say that he'll get better... well, we've heard that before and it hasn't panned out. Enough with the wishful thinking man. There's good reason to be skeptical here and that's what a smart GM would do: Take a skeptical position and expect the worst but hope for the best. We've done the opposite, we've expected and planned for the best and it's blown up in our faces two seasons in a row.

Why can't you learn from past mistakes?


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03-23-2012, 11:45 AM
  #60
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Markov has been brutal turned inside out numerous times beaten to pucks he should be all over and terrible passes.
he's made like 2 terrible passes and one of them was cause (and i cant remember the player) was not moving. Markov banked it of the boards for a break away and the player wasnt really skating.

and of course he's going to have turnovers and get beaten he has not played in almost 2 season what the hell do you expect.

while half the game he might be bad, half the game were seeing vintage markov play. Outsmarting players, sneak ins where he's next to the net for a tip in, controling the play in the offensive zone or leading it with either an outlet pass or bringing it in the zone.

i dont understand why ppl just want him to fail and are so focused on the negatives that they refuse to see that he's not lost it he's just rusty

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03-23-2012, 12:00 PM
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he's made like 2 terrible passes and one of them was cause (and i cant remember the player) was not moving. Markov banked it of the boards for a break away and the player wasnt really skating.

and of course he's going to have turnovers and get beaten he has not played in almost 2 season what the hell do you expect.

while half the game he might be bad, half the game were seeing vintage markov play. Outsmarting players, sneak ins where he's next to the net for a tip in, controling the play in the offensive zone or leading it with either an outlet pass or bringing it in the zone.

i dont understand why ppl just want him to fail and are so focused on the negatives
Nobody wants him to fail.
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that they refuse to see that he's not lost it he's just rusty
Hopefully you're right. But I disagree with your assessment that he looks good. I haven't seen it. I don't think he looks good out there right now. I don't know if it's rust or if he's not the same player. Nobody does.

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03-23-2012, 12:03 PM
  #62
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I guess when a doctor tells you something you say "**** what do you know about healing and the body?. I am gonna go ask my buddies on hfboard because in hindsight they are always right"

Markov was expected back early, you just can't seem to get it through your mind that gauthier wasn't sitting there thinking "geez how can I **** this team? Oh thats right I will sign markov long term knowing full well he wont play this year" Use some common sense for crying out loud. YOu think they are going to run out and make a huge trade against the advice of medical professionals? Give me your magic ball miss Cleo.

As reguards to your first point yes the coaching is a much bigger factor than markov. I see you trying to pin everything on his signing in a vain/sad attempt to blame gauthier.

I am sure managment will monitor his progress in these games and over the offseason, 5 games is not enough to determine sweet **** all let alone the mans career a year from now.

Gauthier's job is to field a competitive team. He failed. It doesn't matter what he was thinking, nor do you need to be a doctor to diagnose the fact that Markov has played 5 games this year, thus leaving the team with a massive hole that Gauthier failed to fill. Those are facts. I don't understand why you can't face them, but there it is.

Also, where exactly are these statements from actual doctors that guaranteed Markov would be healthy this season? How did you come by this information? What doctor are you listening to?

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03-23-2012, 12:27 PM
  #63
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My point in starting this thread wasn't really to start a debate about Markov, but to discuss how the defence has looked since his return. I know it's going to take Markov time. However, I will say that he hasn't looked as good as many people have said. He has 1 assist and is what, minus -3. The way some people talk, the guy is playing like Coffey out there.

Anyway, my main point is that the defence overall has not looked good. I know they've been suspect all season, but they look different since Markov's return. I get the feeling they are toning things down expecting Markov to just take over, which hasn't happened yet. I think the most noticable has been Emelin. He's looked bad at times and has been invisible. I don't remeber his last big hit. Heres a guy that was supposed to benefit from Markov's return. I think he's playing hurt.

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03-23-2012, 12:35 PM
  #64
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My point in starting this thread wasn't really to start a debate about Markov, but to discuss how the defence has looked since his return. I know it's going to take Markov time. However, I will say that he hasn't looked as good as many people have said. He has 1 assist and is what, minus -3. The way some people talk, the guy is playing like Coffey out there.

Anyway, my main point is that the defence overall has not looked good. I know they've been suspect all season, but they look different since Markov's return. I get the feeling they are toning things down expecting Markov to just take over, which hasn't happened yet. I think the most noticable has been Emelin. He's looked bad at times and has been invisible. I don't remeber his last big hit. Heres a guy that was supposed to benefit from Markov's return. I think he's playing hurt.
I really don't see it, sorry. Are you telling me you think the defense has been worse with Markov in Kaberle's place? Because that's basically what's happened.

They are clearly worn out. This started before Markov came back, and it's the result of such awful depth back there.

Emelin looks like he's hurting. He's never played this long of a season, in fact Markov is probably the one reason he hasn't been shut down like Diaz, as they probably want Markov to tutor him or something.

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03-23-2012, 12:41 PM
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Gauthier's job is to field a competitive team. He failed. It doesn't matter what he was thinking, nor do you need to be a doctor to diagnose the fact that Markov has played 5 games this year, thus leaving the team with a massive hole that Gauthier failed to fill. Those are facts. I don't understand why you can't face them, but there it is.

Also, where exactly are these statements from actual doctors that guaranteed Markov would be healthy this season? How did you come by this information? What doctor are you listening to?
What were our other options if not Markov? Wizniewski? I prefer an injured Markov...

PG worst mistake wasn't Markov, but thinking that Gill, Campoli, Emelin or Diaz could be good enough to play a top-4 role. And then trading for Kaberle. Our defense sucked on paper at the start of the season.

But again, you don't build a team through UFAs. And because of a few weak drafts, a few bad trades (McDonagh, SK, Latendresse, D'Agostini), some players not developping as we hoped (Eller, Palushaj, Weber) and of course injuries (without any depth players to fill in), we are where we are.

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03-23-2012, 12:59 PM
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Nobody wants him to fail.

Hopefully you're right. But I disagree with your assessment that he looks good. I haven't seen it. I don't think he looks good out there right now. I don't know if it's rust or if he's not the same player. Nobody does.
You are correct no one wants him to fail but to this point he sure isn't showing he will succeed unfortunatly. He has been slow and made some really bad decisions with and without the puck. He has been outskated badly.

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03-23-2012, 01:55 PM
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Our defensive problems this year came from 2 reasons:

- at first, we didn't had Hamrlik. Our D core lacked critical depth with inexperienced players who were thrown in situations over their head
- later, RC blew away the system JM had installed and the Offensive/Defensive synchronism that proved to be our strength fell apart, even when players like Emelin started proving he had it in him to make a difference.

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03-23-2012, 02:03 PM
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Nobody wants him to fail.

Hopefully you're right. But I disagree with your assessment that he looks good. I haven't seen it. I don't think he looks good out there right now. I don't know if it's rust or if he's not the same player. Nobody does.
The skating, mobility and endurance aren't there...which is to be expected. But the superior hockey sense is still there.

That's what i've seen and that's why i'm encouraged about where he's at and where he could be come next September.

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03-23-2012, 02:08 PM
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What were our other options if not Markov? Wizniewski? I prefer an injured Markov...

PG worst mistake wasn't Markov, but thinking that Gill, Campoli, Emelin or Diaz could be good enough to play a top-4 role. And then trading for Kaberle. Our defense sucked on paper at the start of the season.

But again, you don't build a team through UFAs. And because of a few weak drafts, a few bad trades (McDonagh, SK, Latendresse, D'Agostini), some players not developping as we hoped (Eller, Palushaj, Weber) and of course injuries (without any depth players to fill in), we are where we are.
I agree. I'm not saying signing Markov was a mistake, I think it was a gamble that hasn't paid off this year, but it might next. It's Molson's money, if he's willing to gamble on Markov not playing, fine. He's worth the money when he does play. I blame Gathier for the pathetic group he iced this season. No roster that includes Weber, Campoli, Diaz and then adds Kaberle can really be expected to succeed.

What I really hate though, is that as the team heads into the tank he brings in guys like Kaberle and Borque who are lazy players on long term contracts, exactly the kind of guys you need to purge out of a losing org.

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03-23-2012, 02:20 PM
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Our defensive problems this year came from 2 reasons:

- at first, we didn't had Hamrlik. Our D core lacked critical depth with inexperienced players who were thrown in situations over their head
- later, RC blew away the system JM had installed and the Offensive/Defensive synchronism that proved to be our strength fell apart, even when players like Emelin started proving he had it in him to make a difference.

This.

Our only real minute eaters were Gorges and Subban. As much as I love Gorges he's not a top pairing guy, and Subban is still a kid. Hamrlik might be finished but he was one of the team's most valuable players and he wasn't replaced. They should have known that Gill was nothing more than a PK specialist at this point.

And of course we no longer have Martin's system to shield them. Say what you want about Martin's boring hockey but teams hated to play against us. This team was built to play defensive hockey and without that mindset it's been exposed.

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03-23-2012, 10:38 PM
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The Markov effect continues on, now 3-1-2 since his return.

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03-25-2012, 07:00 AM
  #72
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It took Cole a few weeks into the regular season to get his groove going; for Markov, his first dozen games back after so long are barely a pre-season warmup. I don't see how he can be properly judged until October.

By the way, I'm currently sitting in a hotel in London England, right next to Wembley Stadium. There's a football match there in a couple of hours and half the crowd is wearing their team's bright red jersey ('Stinton' or 'Swinton' or something). I went running an hour ago in my similarly red Habs t-shirt and got a few puzzled stares from people who thought I was one of them, then realized I was some weird foreigner.

Just this second heard a loud chant that, for a second, sounded like "Ole ole ole". It's just a battle between small towns, but man, these people are intense! Gotta love it!

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03-25-2012, 07:28 AM
  #73
hockeyfan2k11
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Markov still needs time to get back to where he used to be.

BUT.

I had said even last year that the D needed to be upgraded even with Markov playing. But the fanboys told me Markov was the 2nd coming of Larry Robinson and would somehow solidify the D all by his own.

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03-25-2012, 11:00 AM
  #74
Estimated_Prophet
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I think it is unfair to judge Markov by his play so far this season. He is clearly struggling with his skating and is playing very tentatively. Hopefully he will have a productive off season and come to camp in much better condition than he is currently in.

As far as our total d-corps for next season, I like our top 4 of markov, Subban, Gorges and Emelin. The problem is the 3rd pairing is pathetically soft and unbalanced. Kaberle is garbage and Diaz and Weber are #7D/PP specialists.

We need a physical bottom pairing to compliment our top 4. A team can hide 1 of Kaberle/Diaz/Weber if they are lacking offensive d-men but with the presence of Subban and Markov there isn't really a need for this type of player. If I was forced to keep one of them it would be Diaz as he has the highest compete level and might be ok if we pair him with a true bruiser.

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03-25-2012, 11:08 AM
  #75
YMCMBeaulieu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Markov still needs time to get back to where he used to be.

BUT.

I had said even last year that the D needed to be upgraded even with Markov playing. But the fanboys told me Markov was the 2nd coming of Larry Robinson and would somehow solidify the D all by his own.


I'm pretty sure most people felt we still needed another top 4 defenseman even with Markov, especially since Gorges was coming back from missing almost a whole season too..

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