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03-27-2012, 11:44 AM
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pld459666
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Trading a young D for a young F

Does anyone else think that we have the depth on D to pull a trade similar to what Pitt did (twice) in trading a young D for a scoring F?

back in 09, Pitt traded Ryan Whitney to the Ducks for Chris Kunitz and Tangradi. Granted, Tangradi hasn't worked out, but Kunitz has been very good for them. While Whitney has not come close to posting the same numbers he was posting while with Pitt.

Then in 2011 they traded Goligoski to Dallas for Neal and Niskanen. Gogo has been OK for Dallas, whereas Neal has lit it up in Pitt.

Granted, both Kunitz and Neal have two of the better centers in the league to work with, but the point remains, are we at the point where we cna sacrifice a younger defenceman (lets use MDZ as an example) to get a solid goal scoring winger for one of the top 2 lines?

Thoughts?

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03-27-2012, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Does anyone else think that we have the depth on D to pull a trade similar to what Pitt did (twice) in trading a young D for a scoring F?

back in 09, Pitt traded Ryan Whitney to the Ducks for Chris Kunitz and Tangradi. Granted, Tangradi hasn't worked out, but Kunitz has been very good for them. While Whitney has not come close to posting the same numbers he was posting while with Pitt.

Then in 2011 they traded Goligoski to Dallas for Neal and Niskanen. Gogo has been OK for Dallas, whereas Neal has lit it up in Pitt.

Granted, both Kunitz and Neal have two of the better centers in the league to work with, but the point remains, are we at the point where we cna sacrifice a younger defenceman (lets use MDZ as an example) to get a solid goal scoring winger for one of the top 2 lines?

Thoughts?
it kinda depends.

Im actually open to moving Marc Staal, but my target would be the CLB #1 pick, if they are in fact looking to move it.

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03-27-2012, 12:03 PM
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I move any prospect and Girardi before I move Staal.

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03-27-2012, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
I move any prospect and Girardi before I move Staal.
In before people whining about Girardi is a RH shot and cant be moved. His value won't get much higher than it is now, and we have a ton of young D. I don't want to lose G but lets face it, we are going to have cap issues with all the kids getting contracts in a year, and we lack a winger or two on our top 6

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03-27-2012, 12:12 PM
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I dont think we currently have the depth to pull this off.

I know thats not a popular stance around here, but its closer to the truth than the thinking that we have some sort of embarassment of riches on the blue line.

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03-27-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calad View Post
In before people whining about Girardi is a RH shot and cant be moved. His value won't get much higher than it is now, and we have a ton of young D. I don't want to lose G but lets face it, we are going to have cap issues with all the kids getting contracts in a year, and we lack a winger or two on our top 6
So who plays right D?

What part of our right D group Sauer, Eminger, Stralman and McIlrath makes you comfortable trading Girardi?

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03-27-2012, 12:16 PM
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In 2008 we swapped Tyutin for Zherdev
Last year St. Louis swapped EJ for Chris Stewart.

It sometimes works, it sometimes doesn't.
I'd be willing to do it depending on the player. I would trade Staal first because Girardi plays RD and McD & MDZ are younger and have more offensive upside.

Personally, I'd like to do a trade where we can upgrade at FWD and downgrade at D (but acquire someone who plays the right side).

Subban, Pacioretty for Dubinsky & Staal

or

Dubinsky, Staal, 1st 2012 (+?) for Zach Bogosian, Evander Kane

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03-27-2012, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaBorat View Post
In 2008 we swapped Tyutin for Zherdev
Last year St. Louis swapped EJ for Chris Stewart.
The Blues also got Shattenkirk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GaBorat View Post
Subban, Pacioretty for Dubinsky & Staal

or

Dubinsky, Staal, 1st 2012 (+?) for Zach Bogosian, Evander Kane
Neither the Habs not the Jets make those trades.

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03-27-2012, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Does anyone else think that we have the depth on D to pull a trade similar to what Pitt did (twice) in trading a young D for a scoring F?

back in 09, Pitt traded Ryan Whitney to the Ducks for Chris Kunitz and Tangradi. Granted, Tangradi hasn't worked out, but Kunitz has been very good for them. While Whitney has not come close to posting the same numbers he was posting while with Pitt.

Then in 2011 they traded Goligoski to Dallas for Neal and Niskanen. Gogo has been OK for Dallas, whereas Neal has lit it up in Pitt.

Granted, both Kunitz and Neal have two of the better centers in the league to work with, but the point remains, are we at the point where we cna sacrifice a younger defenceman (lets use MDZ as an example) to get a solid goal scoring winger for one of the top 2 lines?

Thoughts?
Excellent point, one we should probably consider at some juncture.
People around here(including myself) ***** and moan about Pittsburgh ending up with Crosby and Malkin(especially!) and Staal and Fleury but, to be fair, Ray Shero is the excellent g.m. who made those great deals as well as trading for Dupuis and Cooke and drafting a top 5 defenseman in the league in Letang(50 spots after we took Staal) and Orpik from Boston College.
They are a very well run franchise despite our justified hatred of them and Mario Lemieux.
I do believe that we will have to move a defenseman(a position of strength) for a productive forward(position of weakness) or a top pick but the question remains who do we move when two of our top guys are recovering from the effects of concussions.
Time will tell I guess.

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03-27-2012, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaBorat View Post
In 2008 we swapped Tyutin for Zherdev
Last year St. Louis swapped EJ for Chris Stewart.

It sometimes works, it sometimes doesn't.
I'd be willing to do it depending on the player. I would trade Staal first because Girardi plays RD and McD & MDZ are younger and have more offensive upside.

Personally, I'd like to do a trade where we can upgrade at FWD and downgrade at D (but acquire someone who plays the right side).

Subban, Pacioretty for Dubinsky & Staal

or

Dubinsky, Staal, 1st 2012 (+?) for Zach Bogosian, Evander Kane
Good post. I love those deals you came up with and I would sign up for either one of them in a heartbeat!

I love Subban and especially Evander Kane who I believe can be an Iginla type clone capable of putting up 35+ goals with the right centerman.

Subban is younger, more physical and just more talented than Staal is with way more upside.
Bogosian is also very talented and obviously needs a change of scenery desperately!

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03-27-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont think we currently have the depth to pull this off.

I know thats not a popular stance around here, but its closer to the truth than the thinking that we have some sort of embarassment of riches on the blue line.
Disagree.

Take out MDZ for the sake of discussion, the Rangers have a very solid top 4 in Staal, Girardi, McDonagh and Erixon (has played much bette than his earlier stint). Add Sauer and Bickel to the bottom pairing and we have the ability to move a defenceman and still have a very good group in all three facets of the game, offensively, defensively and physically.

That's not to mention McIlrath in the system and who ever else we draft this year or next.

I think if there's a chance to add an up and coming forward that can get us 25+ goals a season and you can do that in basicaly a one for one trade, you do it.

And season struggles aside, I would target the Blues Chris Stweart.

In fact, because he has struggled, we may be able to pry an additional asset from them the same way Pitt got Niskanen from Dallas and Tangradi from the Ducks.

A big physical scoring Left winger like Stewart followed by a big fast scoring Left winger in Kreider would be hard to defend against

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03-27-2012, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
I move any prospect and Girardi before I move Staal.
Absolutely right. You trade Girardi off a career year, you don't trade Staal off of an abbreviated year where he under performed... Sell high buy low

I'd be shocked if one of our big four (Stall, Girardi, MDZ, McD) is not gone by next season in the type of deal you mention. Out of those four, Giradri would be the one I'd part with first.

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03-27-2012, 12:53 PM
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Absolutely right. You trade Girardi off a career year, you don't trade Staal off of an abbreviated year where he under performed... Sell high buy low

I'd be shocked if one of our big four (Stall, Girardi, MDZ, McD) is not gone by next season in the type of deal you mention. Out of those four, Giradri would be the one I'd part with first.
I would agree because Girardi's "balls to the wall", blood and guts style of play is not conducive to a long and healthy career for him.
Therefore, it might make sense to move him sooner rather than later.

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03-27-2012, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Disagree.

Take out MDZ for the sake of discussion, the Rangers have a very solid top 4 in Staal, Girardi, McDonagh and Erixon (has played much bette than his earlier stint). Add Sauer and Bickel to the bottom pairing and we have the ability to move a defenceman and still have a very good group in all three facets of the game, offensively, defensively and physically.

That's not to mention McIlrath in the system and who ever else we draft this year or next.
I can see how you disagree if you dont think that Sauer, Erixon, Bickel, and McIlrath are big question marks at this juncture.

Unfortunately, they are.

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03-27-2012, 12:55 PM
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The Blues also got Shattenkirk.




Neither the Habs not the Jets make those trades.

Agree with the Jets one. As good as Staal is, it would be very hard to pry those two out...

With the Habs though, you never know with Gauthier. The only think would be if Pacioretty was an automatic no, regardless of who is coming back b/c I think value wise its fair.

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03-27-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont think we currently have the depth to pull this off.

I know thats not a popular stance around here, but its closer to the truth than the thinking that we have some sort of embarassment of riches on the blue line.
Agreed. Our organizational defensive depth has two things:

1. A group of very good, young defensemen who have established themselves in the NHL. I.e., Staal, Girardi, McDonagh, Del Zotto.

2. Another group of players with some serious question marks. I.e., Sauer (health), Erixon (strength), McIlrath (defensive awareness), Stralman (UFA, footwork and decision making issues), Bickell (a good #6/7 and that's probably it) and Eminger (inconsistent as all hell).

What the Penguins did with the Neal/Gogo deal was they dealt from the second group of players. They had an established top-4 of Letang, Orpik, Michalek and Martin. Goligoski was a 5th d-man. Plus, they got a serviceable bottom pairing guy in Niskanen back in the deal as well. In hindsight, it was a home run for the Pens, and a pretty poor decision for Dallas. However, there were some key points that shouldn't be overlooked about the timing of the deal:

1. Neal was viewed as an inconsistent scorer, and the Stars viewed Benn as their long-term replacement. They also felt Brad Richards would be there for the long-haul.

2. Niskanen had regressed big time and was in the dog house just about every night.

3. Goligoski was seen as a dynamic PMD, and those are always at a premium.

All of those things created the perfect storm for the deal to go down. Dealing someone like Staal or Girardi is VERY different than trading Goligoski, both in terms of talent, and in terms of "strength" from which the team would be making a deal.

I also think Erik Johnson's value around the league was higher at that time than a Girardi or Staal would be right now. That "former #1 overall" moniker tends to drive up the price. Not to mention a 1st round pick (#11, Duncan Siemens) went the to Colorado in the deal as well.

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03-27-2012, 01:16 PM
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Part of the reason why our D has struggled as of late is because Girardi and McDonagh are gassed from logging so many minutes early in the year due to Staal's absence and because Sauer has been injured since December. You can never have too much depth at D.

Unless or until one of Sauer, Bickel, Erixon, or McIlrath makes Staal, Girardi, or MDZ replaceable, I'd prefer not to trade any of them. So far it hasn't happened. And it may never happen.

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03-27-2012, 01:20 PM
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I would not deal any of the current defense we have. If there is a time to make a trade, it will be a couple seasons from now when Erixon can establish himself on our blueline, while we have guys like McDonagh, Del Zotto, Staal, and Girardi already there and McIlrath coming soon if not already in the NHL. Then you can make a move because you'll have Sauer on your team who you can put in as a 6TH defender.

Right now, we don't have tremendous D depth. This offseason we don't have it. In a couple years, I can see, if players drafted don't work out and we need a dynamic scorer, that they'll look to deal a younger D for a younger forward. Right now, I'm one that wants to keep growing internally and keep our D and wait for the likes of Kreider and Miller to get through the system and onto the roster. We're not in a situation where we need to speed up development. We can take our time.

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03-27-2012, 02:26 PM
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I would not be against selling high on Girardi this summer.

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03-27-2012, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Does anyone else think that we have the depth on D to pull a trade similar to what Pitt did (twice) in trading a young D for a scoring F?

back in 09, Pitt traded Ryan Whitney to the Ducks for Chris Kunitz and Tangradi. Granted, Tangradi hasn't worked out, but Kunitz has been very good for them. While Whitney has not come close to posting the same numbers he was posting while with Pitt.

Then in 2011 they traded Goligoski to Dallas for Neal and Niskanen. Gogo has been OK for Dallas, whereas Neal has lit it up in Pitt.

Granted, both Kunitz and Neal have two of the better centers in the league to work with, but the point remains, are we at the point where we cna sacrifice a younger defenceman (lets use MDZ as an example) to get a solid goal scoring winger for one of the top 2 lines?

Thoughts?
the Gogo trade was horrendous IMO, when i saw it happen. Maybe because I had Neal on my fantasy team and was following him but Neal > Gogo at the time from my perspective. It would have been Gogo+ for Neal in my world so for it go down in the opposite way was confounding. Ray Shero has proven to be a savvy trader. Are we talking about Staal for Ryan here? MDZ is the only comparable D to Whitney and without a Kris Letang & Goligoski in the lineup (like Pitt had at the time they traded Whitney) we can ill afford to trade him. So it's one of McD, Girardi, or Staal then? Two are All-star D men. McD is arguably the fast rising star on the blueline. If we do trade one of those 3, we better be getting quite a return as I see their value >>> Whitney or Goligoski ever were or are as see what they got in return!

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03-27-2012, 03:04 PM
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Anyone suggesting we trade Girardi is a fool. Yea, let's reward a guy for bleeding blue and being our #1 defenseman in a year that weve been holding the top spot for most of the season by trading him.

Yes, of course I'd trade Girardi for the Malkins, Stamkos, Crosbys of the league, but those players are not available. Girardi for Pacioretty is such a horrific joke. That would nullify the win of the Gomez deal. I wouldn't even trade Girardi for a guy I really like, Bobby Ryan. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul. The fact that we have depth at D means you trade a guy like DZ, Erixon, Sauer, McIlrath with other prospects and either Anisimov or Dubinsky to get a guy like Ryan or Nash. You don't trade your best defenseman. I'd trade Gaborik before I trade Girardi. Staal, Girardi and McDonagh are going NOWHERE. Get this through your thick skulls.

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03-27-2012, 03:30 PM
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I'd rather see what we have in Kreider, Yogan, Thomas & Miller before we do that. We may already have the F depth a year or so away.

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03-27-2012, 03:40 PM
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Does anyone else think that we have the depth on D to pull a trade similar to what Pitt did (twice) in trading a young D for a scoring F?
Pitt did not trade their top defensemen to do so. And Staal, Girardi, MDC & MDZ are just that for the Rangers.

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03-27-2012, 03:42 PM
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I'd rather see what we have in Kreider, Yogan, Thomas & Miller before we do that. We may already have the F depth a year or so away.
I agree.

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03-27-2012, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
Anyone suggesting we trade Girardi is a fool. Yea, let's reward a guy for bleeding blue and being our #1 defenseman in a year that weve been holding the top spot for most of the season by trading him.
it's a business. just ask mike richards or jeff carter or half the 2010 blackhawks.

mdz should be pretty untouchable because of the style he plays. staal will be the rangers best defenseman agains and mac can easily be the number two. erixon should be better next season plus a healthy sauer plus mcilrath/stralman/bickel and g is the only logical dman to be dealt.

with that said, i don't think it happens.

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