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The Henrik Sedin Solution to Dangerous Play - Stiffer In-Game Penalties

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Old
03-25-2012, 07:17 PM
  #51
dangerous dan
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This is an off the cuff idea so feel free to shoot me down: what if there was a 'press-box referee'. In the spirit of ensuring that no flagrant offences were missed, he would be able to make calls after stoppages with the aid of video replay. Additionally, he could amend the on-ice call in a situation where the call was assessed incorrectly. For example, Keith's elbow, which was clearly worth 5 and a game, would have been amended so the correct call could have been made.

The speed of the game has passed referees by. Even under the 2 ref system, they have so many things to keep track of and so many disparate rules to enforce that a significant amount of human error is inevitable.

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03-25-2012, 07:57 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerous dan View Post
This is an off the cuff idea so feel free to shoot me down: what if there was a 'press-box referee'. In the spirit of ensuring that no flagrant offences were missed, he would be able to make calls after stoppages with the aid of video replay. Additionally, he could amend the on-ice call in a situation where the call was assessed incorrectly. For example, Keith's elbow, which was clearly worth 5 and a game, would have been amended so the correct call could have been made.

The speed of the game has passed referees by. Even under the 2 ref system, they have so many things to keep track of and so many disparate rules to enforce that a significant amount of human error is inevitable.
Would Ron Mcleans brain explode at the thought of the refs being corrected?

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03-25-2012, 08:00 PM
  #53
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Would Ron Mcleans brain explode at the thought of the refs being corrected?
And then Macleans' brains would be Don Cherry's next outfit on Coach's Corner?

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Old
03-25-2012, 09:13 PM
  #54
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1.) Make games players are suspended count as a player on the roster (so short 1 player each game you're suspended, whether you're Duncan Keith or a career AHLer). Limit to 1 player missing per game so safety isn't an issue.

2.) The first game of each suspension is automatically a playoff game. 5 game suspension = 4 next games + first playoff game you're eligible for.

Combined, that will make players fear suspensions a lot more than they currently do. They not only hurt their teammates by getting suspended (playing with a short bench), but they're guaranteed to miss playoff time, and hurt their teammates at playoff time if they get suspended at any point.

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03-25-2012, 10:25 PM
  #55
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Dan Ohalleran blew the call. As much as Keith deserves 5 games or whatnot, it would have been an easier and more palatable decision if he got the 5 minute in game major instead of the weak misconduct later on to protect him.
I agree the rule book as stated gives refs the power to call majors and game misconducts. It's the turkeys they give the whistles to that is the problem.

The correct call for the Keith hit was five and a game plus the five games by Shanny afterwards.

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03-25-2012, 10:33 PM
  #56
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My family often says that if a player is injured by a dirty play, the offending player should be kept out as long as the victim. Although it's a novel idea, I don't think it would ever work because a borderline hit could end someone's career, and then what.

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03-25-2012, 10:56 PM
  #57
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My family often says that if a player is injured by a dirty play, the offending player should be kept out as long as the victim. Although it's a novel idea, I don't think it would ever work because a borderline hit could end someone's career, and then what.
That would never work...
Kesler throws a meaningless hit on our playoff opponents 6th d-man. He goes down, is helped off the ice. The team says he's not fit to go, and Kesler sits the rest of the series.

Scenarios like that would happen all of the time. As a matter of fact fringe players would be instructed to take one for the team and play up any hit by the oppositions better players.

I think the best idea without making any rule changes is to simply make the ref's accountable for their in game calls/ non-calls by having them have to publicly state why they called/didnt call something).

Q: "What was your line of thinking in letting Sedin get punched in the head 6 times, but having their penalties be virtually the same?"
A: "I thought he deserved it/ I didnt think they were hard enough punches to warrant a call/ I didnt see it etc..."

Not only would this help the fans (maybe even the players), but it would ultimately bring about more consistency in the way games are called.

Q: "The elbow Sedin took ocurred in an area where there was no one around to block your view (apparently)...what was your logic in only calling for a 2 minute minor penalty? How do you feel about that call now knowing that the NHL sees it as being worthy of a 5 game suspension?"

I would love to hear the ref's respond (even if it were as simple as just having Shanahan communicate to us why the refs did what they did.

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03-25-2012, 11:24 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Peacemaker View Post
That would never work...
Kesler throws a meaningless hit on our playoff opponents 6th d-man. He goes down, is helped off the ice. The team says he's not fit to go, and Kesler sits the rest of the series.

Scenarios like that would happen all of the time. As a matter of fact fringe players would be instructed to take one for the team and play up any hit by the oppositions better players.

I think the best idea without making any rule changes is to simply make the ref's accountable for their in game calls/ non-calls by having them have to publicly state why they called/didnt call something).

Q: "What was your line of thinking in letting Sedin get punched in the head 6 times, but having their penalties be virtually the same?"
A: "I thought he deserved it/ I didnt think they were hard enough punches to warrant a call/ I didnt see it etc..."

Not only would this help the fans (maybe even the players), but it would ultimately bring about more consistency in the way games are called.

Q: "The elbow Sedin took ocurred in an area where there was no one around to block your view (apparently)...what was your logic in only calling for a 2 minute minor penalty? How do you feel about that call now knowing that the NHL sees it as being worthy of a 5 game suspension?"

I would love to hear the ref's respond (even if it were as simple as just having Shanahan communicate to us why the refs did what they did.
I've been saying that for years. They should have to answer questions about their calls.

I also wish they would put refs names on their jerseys too. I know a number of them but I hate having to google which refs is screwing us this time....not a big fan of 33 or 37.

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03-25-2012, 11:33 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Peacemaker View Post
That would never work...
Kesler throws a meaningless hit on our playoff opponents 6th d-man. He goes down, is helped off the ice. The team says he's not fit to go, and Kesler sits the rest of the series.

Scenarios like that would happen all of the time. As a matter of fact fringe players would be instructed to take one for the team and play up any hit by the oppositions better players.

I think the best idea without making any rule changes is to simply make the ref's accountable for their in game calls/ non-calls by having them have to publicly state why they called/didnt call something).

Q: "What was your line of thinking in letting Sedin get punched in the head 6 times, but having their penalties be virtually the same?"
A: "I thought he deserved it/ I didnt think they were hard enough punches to warrant a call/ I didnt see it etc..."

Not only would this help the fans (maybe even the players), but it would ultimately bring about more consistency in the way games are called.

Q: "The elbow Sedin took ocurred in an area where there was no one around to block your view (apparently)...what was your logic in only calling for a 2 minute minor penalty? How do you feel about that call now knowing that the NHL sees it as being worthy of a 5 game suspension?"

I would love to hear the ref's respond (even if it were as simple as just having Shanahan communicate to us why the refs did what they did.
that is going to cause a raise in their salary or other inflation.

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Old
03-25-2012, 11:41 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by ZyggZagg View Post
My family often says that if a player is injured by a dirty play, the offending player should be kept out as long as the victim. Although it's a novel idea, I don't think it would ever work because a borderline hit could end someone's career, and then what.
That seemed to be the path the NHL was initially taking with Todd Bertuzzi by imposing an indefinite suspension.

But Bettman wimped out and re-instated him.

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03-26-2012, 01:58 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
That seemed to be the path the NHL was initially taking with Todd Bertuzzi by imposing an indefinite suspension.

But Bettman wimped out and re-instated him.
McSorely came first IIRC, he has 12 months and then had to reapply.

Bertuzzi got about 18 months (which would have included 2 playoffs if the team made it) because the NHL enforced the ban during the lockout preventing him playing in Europe followed by reapplying IIRC.

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03-26-2012, 03:39 AM
  #62
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McSorely came first IIRC, he has 12 months and then had to reapply.

Bertuzzi got about 18 months (which would have included 2 playoffs if the team made it) because the NHL enforced the ban during the lockout preventing him playing in Europe followed by reapplying IIRC.
McSorley was not really tied to Brashear's injuries as Brashear was already back playing.

The way Bertuzzi was presented was that the NHL would take into account the extent of Moore's injuries but then that fell by the wayside.

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03-26-2012, 03:13 PM
  #63
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I like the rugby approach. Keith tried that in soccer/rugby he'd get kicked out of the game and his team would spend the entire game a man down since you don't get to replace sin binned player. Unfortunately 1 man down in a 6 man a side game is different than 1 man down in an 11/13/15 a side game.

They need to get the video refs involved in incidents like these. Just because O'Halloran "missed seeing it" doesn't mean Keith should have gotten off. I'd take no time at all to check and upgrade that penalty to 5 and a game.

That and realise what is 1 game in another sport is not 1 game in hockey. Their seasons are have 3 times less games so 1 game suspension should be 3 in hockey. Keith would have gotten 5 games in another sport, 15 in hockey should have been the call. The fact he's a cleanskin should not earn a discount, the NHL should be looking crackdown on repreat offenders they should be getting the same 15 + repeat offender penalty +25% +50% +100% (escalating with number of repeats) etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerous dan View Post
This is an off the cuff idea so feel free to shoot me down: what if there was a 'press-box referee'. In the spirit of ensuring that no flagrant offences were missed, he would be able to make calls after stoppages with the aid of video replay. Additionally, he could amend the on-ice call in a situation where the call was assessed incorrectly. For example, Keith's elbow, which was clearly worth 5 and a game, would have been amended so the correct call could have been made.

The speed of the game has passed referees by. Even under the 2 ref system, they have so many things to keep track of and so many disparate rules to enforce that a significant amount of human error is inevitable.
you guys both have the same idea, and its used in Rugby somewhat I think? The have a video ref but it may just be used for confirming scoring. Cant recall right now even though I watch a lot of rugby.

As far as 'sin bin' in rugby there are 10 minute penalties also for non-violent actions eg. repeated fouls.

I know this is beer league 'non contact' but the leage I play in has 4 minute minimum penalties for all violent actions ( eg slashing, high stick, hits etc), and if you get 6 minutes or more in a game you get tossed.

NHL needs to differentiate the violence level a bit more, so a accidental trip is not the same as 6 punches to the head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
McSorley was not really tied to Brashear's injuries as Brashear was already back playing.

The way Bertuzzi was presented was that the NHL would take into account the extent of Moore's injuries but then that fell by the wayside.
I dont think the NHL could reasonable justify keeping him suspended any longer. Also, after 18 months you would expect medical stability or at least a long term prognosis to be established.

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03-26-2012, 11:53 PM
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I dont think the NHL could reasonable justify keeping him suspended any longer. Also, after 18 months you would expect medical stability or at least a long term prognosis to be established.
IMHO Bertuzzi should have been banned for life from the NHL.

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03-27-2012, 01:30 AM
  #65
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you guys both have the same idea, and its used in Rugby somewhat I think? The have a video ref but it may just be used for confirming scoring. Cant recall right now even though I watch a lot of rugby.

As far as 'sin bin' in rugby there are 10 minute penalties also for non-violent actions eg. repeated fouls.
That's a bit easier to do in rugby with 13/15 a side.

Quote:
I know this is beer league 'non contact' but the leage I play in has 4 minute minimum penalties for all violent actions ( eg slashing, high stick, hits etc), and if you get 6 minutes or more in a game you get tossed.
that's because your beer league places a higher value on human life and health than the NHL/NHLPA which is more interested in the dollars not the meat running about on the ice. Players getting injured in a beer league is not fun or good for the player numbers. NHL - well plenty of more meat will show up to grab the millions, no matter the risk.

Quote:
NHL needs to differentiate the violence level a bit more, so a accidental trip is not the same as 6 punches to the head.
I'd agree except in the NHL the refs would be even more afraid to make the calls because they wouldn't want to have "that big an effect" on the game.

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03-27-2012, 10:24 AM
  #66
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IMHO Bertuzzi should have been banned for life from the NHL.
Or Steve Moore should have just fough... nawww...

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03-27-2012, 10:32 AM
  #67
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Or Steve Moore should have just fough... nawww...
...he did fight. Canucks just wanted him to get beat up, not just fight.

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03-27-2012, 11:01 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckercky View Post
1.) Make games players are suspended count as a player on the roster (so short 1 player each game you're suspended, whether you're Duncan Keith or a career AHLer). Limit to 1 player missing per game so safety isn't an issue.

2.) The first game of each suspension is automatically a playoff game. 5 game suspension = 4 next games + first playoff game you're eligible for.

Combined, that will make players fear suspensions a lot more than they currently do. They not only hurt their teammates by getting suspended (playing with a short bench), but they're guaranteed to miss playoff time, and hurt their teammates at playoff time if they get suspended at any point.
Half the league doesn't make the playoffs so point number 2 doesn't work.

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03-27-2012, 11:26 AM
  #69
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Couple of ideas

1) if you get a penalty in the last minute of the game, the time remaining on your penalty when the game ends gets applied to the next time you play the same team.

How many teams would be please to start a game with say 1:45 SH because someone decided to take a late roughing call in a meaningless game.

2) As stated before, I would love to see suspensions more than 2 games be applied to games between the same teams. So assume Keith got 6 like he should have minimum, he sits for 3 games and also for the next 3 games against the Canucks. If it should happen to be the playoffs, fine. If its going to take more than 2 years, then just have him sit at the start of the season the 3rd year.

3) I also think fighting should be reduced. I would like to see them either have to call differential penalty minutes, like a instigator, or an additiional 2 or 5 like Keith got to cuase a ruckus, or if its 5 minute majors with no other factors, they each get a 10 minute misconduct for their first fight in a game, and a game misconduct if their is another.

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Old
03-27-2012, 12:43 PM
  #70
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Or Steve Moore should have just fough... nawww...
Moore did fight.

There was no excuse for what Bertuzzi did - hence the suspension, criminal conviction and pending civil damage award.

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Old
03-27-2012, 01:34 PM
  #71
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Flip a puck over the glass = 2 minutes

Concuss a guy with an elbow to the head with no puck in sight = 2 minutes.


Well done NHL!

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