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Old
03-28-2012, 09:37 AM
  #51
Hero
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Originally Posted by saint2e View Post
Wait, hold on... I agree with Cox? Someone check hell for icicles.

In all seriousness, we are improved as a team over the 2008 team Burke inherited. The results are about the same, I admit, but we have a lot more upside.

I know hindsight is 20/20, but let's compare lines:

Poni - Antropov - Blake
vs.
Lupul - Bozak - Kessel

upgrades on the wings, as far as centre, I'd still take Antropov over Bozak. Overall advantage: 2012 Leafs

Kulemin - Grabo - Steen
vs.
MacCarthur - Grabo - Kulemin

Is Mac an upgrade over Steen? Perhaps. I'm gonna call it even.

Hagman - Stajan - Mitchell
vs.
Lombardi - Connolly - Armstrong/Crabb

As much of a disappointment Connolly has been, and as much as Armstrong has been injured, I'd still say that's a slight improvement over our 2008 third line

Hollweg - Moore - Mayers
vs.
Brown - Steckel - Crabb/Ashton/<insert call up here>

I don't think there's any contest here, our current 4th line is much better, if only for Steckel's faceoff prowess

D pairings:
Kaberle - Kubina
Van Ryn - Schenn
Stralman - Finger

vs.

Phaneuf - Komi
Liles - Gunnarson
Gardiner - Schenn

No contest. Our defense is much better.

This is all on paper, though. That hasn't translated into results. I think some blame can be placed at both the GM and Coaches doors for that:

1) Coaches haven't been able to get the best out of their players. Wilson had the run-and-gun approach working for a while, but other teams figured them out, and the Leafs couldn't adapt
2) This team is lacking some leadership. I have faith that Phaneuf has the potential to be that leader, but he's not there yet. Think of great team leaders on the following teams:

1993 - Gilmour, Andreychuk, Clark, Anderson
1999 - Sundin, Thomas, Joseph
2002 - Sundin, Roberts, Joseph, Corson (to a lesser extent)

I just think of the above guys as character guys. Guys who basically picked up the team and carried them through stretches... Those are the guys we need nowadays. But those are the guys that come with heavy prices.
Steen > MacArthur imo. One of the best two-way forwards, on the best two-way team in the league.

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Old
03-28-2012, 09:40 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
I also never considered not making the playoffs a failure either! I consider it part of the process! Things were always going to get worse before they got better! I was on board for the restructuring of this team and ain't going to start *****ing and moaning now cause things got tough!
Fans who don't think that missing the playoffs is a failure are idiots. Especially when that is the goal of the team. I'm sorry.

There are ways of winning and being competitve by getting the best out of a mediocre or subpar roster - see Ottawa, Phoenix, Colorado, etc.

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03-28-2012, 09:42 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Stringer Bell View Post
I've grown out of intense prospect watching and hoping, and fantasy. Odds are almost everyone of those players will not even be in the organization in 5 years, and the best of the best, of the best, of the best, of that group will turn into solid players who can play a regular NHL shift but who we will always dismiss as expendable, stop-gaps, scape goats, players we want off our team, players not part of our future, players responsibile for why we might not be winning 5 years down the road, like Stajan, Wellwood, Antropov, Ponikarovsky, Tlusty, Stralman, Colaiacovo, Kronwall, etc.

Hell, we'd be striking gold if one of them turned into a MacArthur, or a Stempniak, but in the end all we do is complain about guys like those.

I know this is a hockeyfutures website, but this isn't two years after the lock out anymore, the honey moon with projecting prospects and using them for hope is over for me.
Really??? The odds are almost 17 of our top prospects will be gone in 5 years????

Burke has made it clear he isn't interested in trading away young assets anymore! He gets a lot of flak for not trading away 4 of our youngish players or packaging a good chunk in for Nash!

I would say odds are a decent portion of those players will make the roster in some fashion.

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Old
03-28-2012, 09:43 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by dirk41 View Post
90% of 82 = 74. So the Leafs were a playoff team up until they faced New Jersey last Friday?
nobody likes a smart ass!

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Old
03-28-2012, 09:47 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Stringer Bell View Post
Fans who don't think that missing the playoffs is a failure are idiots. Especially when that is the goal of the team. I'm sorry.

There are ways of winning and being competitve by getting the best out of a mediocre or subpar roster - see Ottawa, Phoenix, Colorado, etc.
Then I guess I'm an idiot!

I believe people that thought this team was going to doing something this year or thought this restructuring was going to be all ***** and giggles are idiots themselves! I believe people who feel the need to ***** and moan and complain about everything yet continue to subject themselves to it are idiots!

I believe those people that were all onboard for a rebuild/retool/restructure and now piss and moan about it because things got tough and didn't work out the way they wanted; wish they were idiots because being an idiot woudl be a helluva lot better than what they are!

You want to win and make the playoffs with a subpar roster???? Nice rebuild!! I rather lose and restructure again in the offseason!! The goal was never playoffs and squeekingin with a subpar roster it was rebuilding!

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Old
03-28-2012, 09:53 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by hero View Post
Steen > MacArthur imo. One of the best two-way forwards, on the best two-way team in the league.
I thought Steen was gone when Burke got here.

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Old
03-28-2012, 09:56 AM
  #57
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I thought Steen was gone when Burke got here.
Yeah, Steen was traded before Burke became the GM.

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Old
03-28-2012, 09:57 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Morguee View Post
I thought Steen was gone when Burke got here.
You are correct, and I was wrong.

Steen was moved out with Carlo Colaiacovo for Lee Stempniak on Nov. 24th, 2008. Burke got here November 29th, 2008.

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Old
03-28-2012, 09:59 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint2e View Post
Wait, hold on... I agree with Cox? Someone check hell for icicles.

In all seriousness, we are improved as a team over the 2008 team Burke inherited. The results are about the same, I admit, but we have a lot more upside.

I know hindsight is 20/20, but let's compare lines:

Poni - Antropov - Blake
vs.
Lupul - Bozak - Kessel

upgrades on the wings, as far as centre, I'd still take Antropov over Bozak. Overall advantage: 2012 Leafs

Kulemin - Grabo - Steen
vs.
MacCarthur - Grabo - Kulemin

Is Mac an upgrade over Steen? Perhaps. I'm gonna call it even.

Hagman - Stajan - Mitchell
vs.
Lombardi - Connolly - Armstrong/Crabb

As much of a disappointment Connolly has been, and as much as Armstrong has been injured, I'd still say that's a slight improvement over our 2008 third line

Hollweg - Moore - Mayers
vs.
Brown - Steckel - Crabb/Ashton/<insert call up here>

I don't think there's any contest here, our current 4th line is much better, if only for Steckel's faceoff prowess

D pairings:
Kaberle - Kubina
Van Ryn - Schenn
Stralman - Finger

vs.

Phaneuf - Komi
Liles - Gunnarson
Gardiner - Schenn

No contest. Our defense is much better.

This is all on paper, though. That hasn't translated into results. I think some blame can be placed at both the GM and Coaches doors for that:

1) Coaches haven't been able to get the best out of their players. Wilson had the run-and-gun approach working for a while, but other teams figured them out, and the Leafs couldn't adapt
2) This team is lacking some leadership. I have faith that Phaneuf has the potential to be that leader, but he's not there yet. Think of great team leaders on the following teams:

1993 - Gilmour, Andreychuk, Clark, Anderson
1999 - Sundin, Thomas, Joseph
2002 - Sundin, Roberts, Joseph, Corson (to a lesser extent)

I just think of the above guys as character guys. Guys who basically picked up the team and carried them through stretches... Those are the guys we need nowadays. But those are the guys that come with heavy prices.
And the only place it counts....5th last overall!!! This team is worse now then when Burke took over.

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Old
03-28-2012, 10:01 AM
  #60
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Wow, lol. Coming from the guy that said we should trade Phil Kessel a few weeks ago. Now we have to 'stay the course'?

Do like Torts says and shut your yap.

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Old
03-28-2012, 10:02 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Culture Vulture View Post
He is flippant & this was his message last week.

If Cox was in charge no chance he'd be staying the course.

Just hope the media & the fan base doesn't run Burkie out of town.

I think he still has a lot to offer, despite his imperfections, his state of the union address at season end press conference will be very very interesting to say the least.

This will illustrate just how accountable he really is.

Personally, the only thing about this team that really worries me now is the leadership.

Phaneuf's dressing room deadpan has me really concerned... dunno if he's the guy.

He seems a bit thick in the head - anyone else or just me?

Definitely not just you. I 100% agree. A good leader not only creates accountability among his teammates, he also must hold himself accountable. Phaneuf has a lot of holes in his game. He is not perfect to say the least; but is anyone really? The true testament of a good leader is the person who embraces and believes in everything you and management want to implement on the team. You need to be the most willing to learn, the player with the most heart, the player teammates look to for guidance, the player who steps up in the key moments in every game, the player that is able to come to the defense of those he leads. Somewhat like a captain in a feild of battle or the captain of a ship. The go down with the ship mentality, rather then jump on a life boat and head to safety ( as we have seen from him to end this season). Phaneuf lacks almost all of these traits. Its not that hes not a good player, he has the pottential to be a key peice of this team. However he is not captain material. I by no means want him traded, but i by no means want him being the leader and voice of this team for the coming years. He is just not believable.

In the game against the bruins Phaneuf turned the puck over at the blue line. Instead of skating as hard as he could to the puck, take a hit and make the play, he lamely attempted to create an interferance on the winger busting towards the puck and ended up getting cleanly beat. After this instead of pedaling down and busting his ass back to the net he coasted. This exact turnover lead to the bruins 8th goal of the game. A very telling play as to who he is as a player. Gave up on the game, ultimately giving up on the team. They zoomed in on his face and he was clearly seen mouthing the words " that was your F***in fault". Even though he was talking to the ref, it shows that he is not willing to be held accountable for his actions. This was and is a huge indication of the type of person and leader he is.


Last edited by HockeyGuruPitka: 03-28-2012 at 10:08 AM.
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Old
03-28-2012, 10:04 AM
  #62
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so which is it, Cox? trade Kessel or stay the course?

It's like as soon as he writes a column he immediately loses all recollection of it.

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03-28-2012, 10:06 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
Then I guess I'm an idiot!

I believe people that thought this team was going to doing something this year or thought this restructuring was going to be all ***** and giggles are idiots themselves! I believe people who feel the need to ***** and moan and complain about everything yet continue to subject themselves to it are idiots!

I believe those people that were all onboard for a rebuild/retool/restructure and now piss and moan about it because things got tough and didn't work out the way they wanted; wish they were idiots because being an idiot woudl be a helluva lot better than what they are!

You want to win and make the playoffs with a subpar roster???? Nice rebuild!! I rather lose and restructure again in the offseason!! The goal was never playoffs and squeekingin with a subpar roster it was rebuilding!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Burke
We are not rebuilding
Welcome to the boards!

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Old
03-28-2012, 10:09 AM
  #64
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Another laundry list of prospects. Great, we have prospects, so does every other team in the league. None of the guys not with the leafs are projected to be difference makers. At most you have one second line player there.

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03-28-2012, 10:17 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
The problem with staying the course is that Burke never set course for a rebuild. That's why most fans including myself are confused as to what the actual course is. I'm all for the tank but you don't trade your first round picks if you are. Burke strayed from the course almost immediately when he made the Kessel deal. Now four years later he's going to get back on course?
I'm no Burke apologist, but how did he stray from the course with Kessel? Trading for a 22-year-old sniper who was a top-5 pick and is now top 5 in league scoring? It's been beaten to death, but the only reason the Kessel trade doesn't look great is because the Leafs lost out on Seguin. Burke rolled the dice that the Leafs might give away, at worst, the 10th or 15th pick in those two years. He gambled and lost, but had the two picks been, say, 15, that trade would be looking pretty damn good right now.

Speaking of staying the course, Burke has replinished our prospect pool by adding the likes of Colborne, Gardiner, Ashton and Franson through trades. Of course he has made some serious blunders, but he hasn't strayed too far from his blueprint of not giving away the future. Again, I think the point is made on the Kessel deal. I mean, Boston gives away a first and a top prospect for Kaberle, and most seem to think it was a great deal because they won the Cup?

Our collective prospect base is as promising as I have ever seen. In a couple of years, when the kids mentioned above, along with Frattin, Kadri, Blacker and some of the other youngsters, start to really develop and come into their own, we'll see that Burke did this whole thing right, albeit a little later than he probably wanted.


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Old
03-28-2012, 10:20 AM
  #66
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Another laundry list of prospects. Great, we have prospects, so does every other team in the league. None of the guys not with the leafs are projected to be difference makers. At most you have one second line player there.
Central Scouting should hire you. Your well thought out opinion of prospects would be of tremendous value.

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03-28-2012, 10:24 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
Definitely not just you. I 100% agree. A good leader not only creates accountability among his teammates, he also must hold himself accountable. Phaneuf has a lot of holes in his game. He is not perfect to say the least; but is anyone really? The true testament of a good leader is the person who embraces and believes in everything you and management want to implement on the team. You need to be the most willing to learn, the player with the most heart, the player teammates look to for guidance, the player who steps up in the key moments in every game, the player that is able to come to the defense of those he leads. Somewhat like a captain in a feild of battle or the captain of a ship. The go down with the ship mentality, rather then jump on a life boat and head to safety ( as we have seen from him to end this season). Phaneuf lacks almost all of these traits. Its not that hes not a good player, he has the pottential to be a key peice of this team. However he is not captain material. I by no means want him traded, but i by no means want him being the leader and voice of this team for the coming years. He is just not believable.

In the game against the bruins Phaneuf turned the puck over at the blue line. Instead of skating as hard as he could to the puck, take a hit and make the play, he lamely attempted to create an interferance on the winger busting towards the puck and ended up getting cleanly beat. After this instead of pedaling down and busting his ass back to the net he coasted. This exact turnover lead to the bruins 8th goal of the game. A very telling play as to who he is as a player. Gave up on the game, ultimately giving up on the team. They zoomed in on his face and he was clearly seen mouthing the words " that was your F***in fault". Even though he was talking to the ref, it shows that he is not willing to be held accountable for his actions. This was and is a huge indication of the type of person and leader he is.
I loved the Phaneuf deal when it was made, and I still think we came out ahead, considering what Burke gave up. That said, Phaneuf makes McCabe-like bonehead plays on a alarming basis. He even has McCabe's stupid faces to go along with the screwups.

He needs to take this team by the throat and prove he is capable of handling that pressure. Right now, this team is seriously lacking leadership. And, you're right, Phaneuf has to be held accountable for his own shortcomings. Perhaps by taking that responsibility in public will rub off on his teammates.

Honestly, on some nights, if Phaneuf and Connolly ever went to change a lightbuib together, you might want to have a camera close by. Something worth recording is bound to happen.

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03-28-2012, 10:25 AM
  #68
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Yes Burke has a big mouth and has said a lot of things that will haunt him. Having said that i agree with Cox's article and I am as most know not a Cox fan. I am very aware he last week suggested trading Kessel. I just think he put together a pretty good read this time. I am sure this time next week he will be writing about wanting to trade for Nash. But lets just dwell on this while it lasts.
I agree completely, we are discussing the article and not the writer, I'm not a fan of Cox or Simmons, both make up a lot of garbage to sell papers however when an article is published and says most of what I too think is the way forward and that is for Burke to stay the course, it should be acknowledged, IMO we have a good nucleus of young players to build around and to keep going and not worry about the time frame.

Our Achilles heel has been the goal tending and I have said it many times, Goal tending is like pitching baseball, if you don't have it you can't win, so this is where to start this off-season's acquisitions.

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03-28-2012, 10:26 AM
  #69
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we're getting advice from damien cox?

what's the world coming to

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03-28-2012, 10:30 AM
  #70
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Cox is more bipolar in his writings, then this fan base is as a whole.

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03-28-2012, 10:34 AM
  #71
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I've never doubted that Burke would stay the course.

Things will look remarkably better with competent Goaltending.

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03-28-2012, 10:35 AM
  #72
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There is no course to begin with. By all means, if there is one -- please share what exactly it is, and how it will be achieved so that one can see exactly how it is possible to 'stay the course'.

1) Is the course to develop legitimate NHL players that can make an meaningful impact? Haven't seen much of this considering the fact that 'bonafide scrubs' are playing over more talented, and youthful players. If a team is truly giving young players a chance, then they would be playing. The article sites the Rangers and Blues -- I don't see those teams blocking their talented young players with purposeless NHL players on a consistent basis.

2) Is the course to win the Stanley Cup? Well, this is only possible by making the playoffs, which has not been accomplished in 7 years. Can anyone say this current roster is close to that?

3) Is the course to make the playoffs? See above.

4) Is the course to do 1) and accomplish 3)? Well if it is then, this is at least 2-3 years away and how can Burke do it exactly, if his future will surely be at stake. If it's being questioned now, I can't imagine it lasting that long into the future when his contract is up.

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03-28-2012, 10:45 AM
  #73
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This one time Im so so with cox's article.

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03-28-2012, 10:45 AM
  #74
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Darren Dreger did mention something to the effect in a radio interview a couple months ago.
Yeah I remeber that but then a few days after that on OSR in Ottawa, he said he was just joking around trying to get some ratings and that Burke is one of the most repected amongst the BoG's

..........who to believe


While Cox was merely rousing the rabble and reflecting the fanbase with his "trade Kessel" nonsense, I think he's dead on here. Burke has had to overhaul the team and farm from basically the ground up. The Marlies are looking poised to take a pretty good run at an AHL championship this year and the Leafs whilst missing the playoffs again are a goaltender and maybe two forwards away from making a big noise at the NHL level.

If Burke decides to dismantle and start over as a lot in LeafLand are suggesting/whining/demanding it would be IMCO a back-wards step of epic proportions.

For those of you in the "Burke promised a winner" crowd, well yes he did but he didn't say when, other then he didn't want to go through a traditional rebuild of 5 years of hard suckage followed by 3 years of growing and maturing and another year to break through, which is Pittsburgh's, Chicago's and to some degree Detroits methodology of getting to the promised land(with slightly variable timelines). One can always hope for a goaltender miracle sich as Carolina or Tampa Bay, but those breaks are few and far between

LA has gone backwards, Vancouver is 12 years past drafting the twins, Detroit is a solid club with aging stars and may not get back anytime soon, Pittsburgh looks like they may go again. Florida who has been building forever finally said scew it and signed a ton of FA's and they reached a middling level. Washington who knows they had it all and let it slide away against hot goaltenders, they IMO are now at a crossroads with some big decisions to make.

Burke has got some of the icing in place, now he just needs the cake, it aint that far away and by year 5 most of you will be singing a different tune

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03-28-2012, 10:47 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Yosho View Post
March 14 - http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...on-phil-kessel

March 28 - http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...tay-the-course

Am I going crazy? Or is Cox? What kind of idiot doesn't see exactly what is going on here?
Exactly. It's like all opinion pieces . . . they fall and rise with public opinion, often trying to goad the public into a lather at the crests (if you get my tidal/wave analogy).

In this case, I agree with him - but on the March 14th article, disagreed with him.

I tihnk the Leafs have a well above average defence on paper, and that it was badly coached by Wilson, and will take perhaps a full season under Carlyle to salvage/repair. The goaltending was not only badly managed, the GM made a critical error in NOT obtaining a vet as a back-up. Maybe we need to move Phaneuf in a "lateral" trade, change the team leadership?

Other than these issues, I do in fact feel we'd have been a solid playoff team even this year, and certainly beyond. We are not that far away (heck, very few teams are, in this league).

A top 5, top 7 pick, some shedding of salary and a couple of hard-nosed forwards added, plus the addition of a good starting goalie through trade, and this team is well on its way to the playoffs next year.

That, coupled with the Leafs getting a TINY bit of luck for once next year (I don't who broke the mirror in the Leafs' dressing room during the lockout, but I think our 7 year run should be completed, no?). Just sayin'.

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