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Trading a young D for a young F

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Old
03-27-2012, 04:47 PM
  #26
mrhockey193195
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
I agree.
This may be an unpopular decision, but if I'm GM under no circumstances am I trading a guy like Girardi. This is such a tight knit hockey club, all the guys have grown up together, and what kind of message does it send to the rest of the team when a player goes out there, bleeds for the team and plays the best hockey of his career, only to get subsequently traded.

I'd rather take my chances with loyalty and hold onto our players at the risk of missing a great trading opportunity. This team has other ways to improve without shipping off a top defender.

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03-27-2012, 04:48 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by blue2noise View Post
I'd rather see what we have in Kreider, Yogan, Thomas & Miller before we do that. We may already have the F depth a year or so away.
No we need it now now now now now dammit!


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Old
03-27-2012, 04:48 PM
  #28
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Yeah guys. Let's trade Girardi, so that we're left with an injury prone Sauer, Stralman, and Bickel on our right side. Nothing can go wrong with that.

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03-27-2012, 04:52 PM
  #29
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If anything we need to ADD to the defense depth, not take away from it.

We don't know what McIlrath or Erixon will be. And we don't know what Sauer's health will be.

We SHOULD go hard after Schultz, and use Dubinsky to either trade up at the draft or acquire a RHD.

And then go after Parise on July 1st.

Dubinsky on the 2nd/3rd line is a lot easier to replace from within the organization, than it would be to replace Staal, Girardi, Del Zotto, McDonagh, or Sauer.

Kreider, Miller, Yogan, Thomas are knocking on the door and will be competing for a spot in camp this September.

Id rather add Schultz and possibly another good young(ish) defenseman so there can be a healthy competition for the 3rd pair and in case of injury later into next season.

McDonagh, Girardi, Staal, Del Zotto are untouchable.

Erixon, McIlrath, (hopefully Schultz), and hopefully add others to compete for the 3rd pairing in camp.

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03-27-2012, 05:10 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by AdamBanks99 View Post
it's a business. just ask mike richards or jeff carter or half the 2010 blackhawks.

mdz should be pretty untouchable because of the style he plays. staal will be the rangers best defenseman agains and mac can easily be the number two. erixon should be better next season plus a healthy sauer plus mcilrath/stralman/bickel and g is the only logical dman to be dealt.

with that said, i don't think it happens.
Business has squat to do with it.

The Flyers made huge changes to their roster. We've yet to see just how those moves will work out, but when Jagr is gone (as early as next year, but even if he resigns he can't have that many more years in him), will Bryzgalov, Schenn, Coutourier and Voracek live up to the kind of success that Richards and Carter had in Philly and will probably go on to have in LA? I'm very doubtful. They got unproven quantity for proven quality, and it freed up the space to add Bryzgalov and Jagr. Lets evaluate these moves in a few years.

And the Blackhawks were forced to make moves because they exploited the bonus loophole to the max and couldn't afford to keep some of their core players. Bad long-term asset management but they did win the Cup. Reminds me of the deadline moves in 94. Bad in the long-term but it succeeded in getting us a Cup that year.

The bottom line is we shouldn't have to trade one of our top 3-4 defenseman to fix our scoring woes. We may even be able to sign Parise for no assets. We also may already have the solution in Kreider and/or Thomas. If we get Nash it will be 110% on our terms. There is absolutely no reason to even begin thinking about trading Girardi for a scorer. We have plenty of attractive, cheap assets (prospects and young first or second contract players) that can be packaged with draft picks to bring in the kind of scorers that will be available. The end.

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03-27-2012, 05:54 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
Business has squat to do with it.

The Flyers made huge changes to their roster. We've yet to see just how those moves will work out, but when Jagr is gone (as early as next year, but even if he resigns he can't have that many more years in him), will Bryzgalov, Schenn, Coutourier and Voracek live up to the kind of success that Richards and Carter had in Philly and will probably go on to have in LA? I'm very doubtful. They got unproven quantity for proven quality, and it freed up the space to add Bryzgalov and Jagr. Lets evaluate these moves in a few years.

And the Blackhawks were forced to make moves because they exploited the bonus loophole to the max and couldn't afford to keep some of their core players. Bad long-term asset management but they did win the Cup. Reminds me of the deadline moves in 94. Bad in the long-term but it succeeded in getting us a Cup that year.

The bottom line is we shouldn't have to trade one of our top 3-4 defenseman to fix our scoring woes. We may even be able to sign Parise for no assets. We also may already have the solution in Kreider and/or Thomas. If we get Nash it will be 110% on our terms. There is absolutely no reason to even begin thinking about trading Girardi for a scorer. We have plenty of attractive, cheap assets (prospects and young first or second contract players) that can be packaged with draft picks to bring in the kind of scorers that will be available. The end.
Business may have "squat" to do with it to you but every move you analyzed here was a business decision whether you agree with it or not.

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03-27-2012, 06:28 PM
  #32
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I wouldn't trade any of the core 4 as I like to call them- Girardi/Mcd/Staal/DZ- but beyond them I'd move any defenseman necessary to land a top 6 forward.

And as for Yogan, Kreider, Thomas, and Miller, stop mentioning them like they're going to step in and right away be the 25-30 goal scorer we so desperately need. We would be insanely lucky if that happened and its not realistic.

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03-27-2012, 06:53 PM
  #33
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Be more inclined to keep Girardi, Staal, MDZ, McD all here. Maybe move one of the others--unless we grab a big free agent d like Suter or Weber.

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03-27-2012, 06:55 PM
  #34
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i'm wary about touching our D, but if we had to move someone i'd probably pick staal to go, mainly because of the value he could fetch. i don't wanna move delZ and definitely not girardi or mcD. no jinxes but mcD could be shaping up to be an elite dman the likes of which i haven't seen in a while.

so the real question for me is: what could we get for a guy like staal? it'd have to be a sure thing. i don't wanna risk it for a player who hasn't proven himself. just pray to the gods we don't get wolski'd or gomez'd again.

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03-27-2012, 07:11 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by gluvhand View Post
Business may have "squat" to do with it to you but every move you analyzed here was a business decision whether you agree with it or not.
Yes.

My "business has squat to do with it" reply was in response to the poster who said that we should trade Girardi because even though he's been our best defenseman this year, it's a business. Business has nothing to do with the fact that we SHOULDN'T trade Girardi. Like I said, if we could get Stamkos, sure. But to get the second-tier scorers who may be available, absolutely not.

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03-27-2012, 07:18 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Pitt did not trade their top defensemen to do so. And Staal, Girardi, MDC & MDZ are just that for the Rangers.
This exactly. We need a player on our bottom pair pushing to be given more time in order to make this kind of deal. Right now, with Sauer's injury and Stralman's regression, we don't have that. Next year could be a different story. If Erixon puts on the muscle I kinda expect him to in the offseason and Sauer gets healthy... we may have the kind of depth needed for a deal.

Oh, and that Erik Johnson trade? Despite Stewart's down year, it's been a win-win for both teams. Johnson wasn't traded for Stewart or Stewart Shattenkirk. It was Johnson/McClement/1st for Stewart/Shattenkirk/2nd. VERY even deal.

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Old
03-27-2012, 07:57 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by blue2noise View Post
I'd rather see what we have in Kreider, Yogan, Thomas & Miller before we do that. We may already have the F depth a year or so away.
by the time the majority of those players are ready to contribute in a meaningful way, most of our established guys will need raises or be on 3rd contracts and at that point people will be moved out. you need to balance timing of all this so youre not just creating a conveyer belt of talent that has guys leaving (bc of contracts and not bad play) when others are stepping into their own. this creates a situation where you dont get better, you just stay at the same level but with new names.

we need to find the right combination to improve. waiting 2-4 years for the players you mention to grow up into major contributors means gabby is potentially gone, richards is starting to tally off a bit, guys are getting raises, ect. in a non cap world that idea works, but not in this world.

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Old
03-27-2012, 11:21 PM
  #38
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Girardi Dubinsky + for #1 overall

probably not but a super high draft pick would be exciting for me.

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03-27-2012, 11:36 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Pitt did not trade their top defensemen to do so. And Staal, Girardi, MDC & MDZ are just that for the Rangers.
Exactly correct.

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Old
03-28-2012, 01:14 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Does anyone else think that we have the depth on D to pull a trade similar to what Pitt did (twice) in trading a young D for a scoring F?
No. Not right now.

Once all this promise becomes a glut, yes we can. But not until Sauer regains his health, McIlrath refines his game, Erixon increases his strength and Staal regains his form. Then you can talk to me.

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03-28-2012, 11:39 AM
  #41
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Our defensive depth myth is just that: a myth. This is particularly so if Sauer won't be able to come back (which I think he will be, but that's another story).

No, we don't have the ability to trade away our defensemen for forwards. Once we get past our top 6 (Staal, McDonagh, Girardi, Del Zotto, Sauer and Erixon), our next young defenseman is McIlrath who will take anywhere between 1 and 2.5 years just to crack the NHL, and another 2-3 years to hit his prime. But in the next couple of years, we can't rely on him, and as it is we will have random scrubs filling in every time we have an injury.

We had a lot of defensemen prospects and projects in the last couple of years, but defensemen go bust a lot, which is why Slats got so many in the first place.

Valentenko, Kundratek, Pashnin, Parlett and Niemi all were thought to have legitimate odds at cracking the NHL in the recent couple of years, only to turn to nothing.

In the last 5 years, we drafted a total of 2 defensemen in the first 4 rounds of any of these 5 drafts. One of them is MDZ, who is already on the team. Because we concentrated so much on forwards, our F corps are strong now, but our D corps don't have a lot of depth.

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03-28-2012, 12:31 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
the Gogo trade was horrendous IMO, when i saw it happen. Maybe because I had Neal on my fantasy team and was following him but Neal > Gogo at the time from my perspective. It would have been Gogo+ for Neal in my world so for it go down in the opposite way was confounding. Ray Shero has proven to be a savvy trader. Are we talking about Staal for Ryan here? MDZ is the only comparable D to Whitney and without a Kris Letang & Goligoski in the lineup (like Pitt had at the time they traded Whitney) we can ill afford to trade him. So it's one of McD, Girardi, or Staal then? Two are All-star D men. McD is arguably the fast rising star on the blueline. If we do trade one of those 3, we better be getting quite a return as I see their value >>> Whitney or Goligoski ever were or are as see what they got in return!
It was a steal. My friend who's a Stars fan was pissed about that trade. Goligoski is a puck hog.

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03-28-2012, 12:31 PM
  #43
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Good post. I love those deals you came up with and I would sign up for either one of them in a heartbeat!

I love Subban and especially Evander Kane who I believe can be an Iginla type clone capable of putting up 35+ goals with the right centerman.

Subban is younger, more physical and just more talented than Staal is with way more upside.
Bogosian is also very talented and obviously needs a change of scenery desperately!
Kane will be a monster

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03-28-2012, 05:18 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
I move any prospect and Girardi before I move Staal.
I concur, except I keep prospects Kreider, JT Miller + maybe Fasth.

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03-28-2012, 05:20 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Calad View Post
In before people whining about Girardi is a RH shot and cant be moved. His value won't get much higher than it is now, and we have a ton of young D. I don't want to lose G but lets face it, we are going to have cap issues with all the kids getting contracts in a year, and we lack a winger or two on our top 6
Yes, yes and yes.
Totally want to give props to Girardi; but we need to move someone for help on scoring, and he is our most moveable being the highest valued from the part of the team that has the most comparative depth at the moment.

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03-28-2012, 05:28 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I can see how you disagree if you dont think that Sauer, Erixon, Bickel, and McIlrath are big question marks at this juncture.

Unfortunately, they are.
Not so much.
Sauer, ok yes, but only due to he's recovering from injury, not as to ability
Erixon, no -- sure, he'd be sharper w/more polishing but no, clearly he can play
Bickel, depends what you expect from him. If he's only a 5/6 stay at home, then he's ok
and McIlrath see Bickel.

Fortune favors the bold.
We need to redeploy our assets.
We can rely on these guys, + Stralman + Eminger, if we can move them both for upgrade.

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Old
03-28-2012, 05:31 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Our defensive depth myth is just that: a myth. This is particularly so if Sauer won't be able to come back (which I think he will be, but that's another story).

No, we don't have the ability to trade away our defensemen for forwards. Once we get past our top 6 (Staal, McDonagh, Girardi, Del Zotto, Sauer and Erixon), our next young defenseman is McIlrath who will take anywhere between 1 and 2.5 years just to crack the NHL, and another 2-3 years to hit his prime. But in the next couple of years, we can't rely on him, and as it is we will have random scrubs filling in every time we have an injury.

We had a lot of defensemen prospects and projects in the last couple of years, but defensemen go bust a lot, which is why Slats got so many in the first place.

Valentenko, Kundratek, Pashnin, Parlett and Niemi all were thought to have legitimate odds at cracking the NHL in the recent couple of years, only to turn to nothing.

In the last 5 years, we drafted a total of 2 defensemen in the first 4 rounds of any of these 5 drafts. One of them is MDZ, who is already on the team. Because we concentrated so much on forwards, our F corps are strong now, but our D corps don't have a lot of depth.
Pashnin I think has at least lower paring ability. Issue is getting him here and confirming playing time. not saying he'll put world on fire, but should contribute.

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Old
03-28-2012, 05:32 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by bleedblue94 View Post
by the time the majority of those players are ready to contribute in a meaningful way, most of our established guys will need raises or be on 3rd contracts and at that point people will be moved out. you need to balance timing of all this so youre not just creating a conveyer belt of talent that has guys leaving (bc of contracts and not bad play) when others are stepping into their own. this creates a situation where you dont get better, you just stay at the same level but with new names.

we need to find the right combination to improve. waiting 2-4 years for the players you mention to grow up into major contributors means gabby is potentially gone, richards is starting to tally off a bit, guys are getting raises, ect. in a non cap world that idea works, but not in this world.
Exactly right, which is why we should look for the right deal now.

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Old
03-29-2012, 02:46 PM
  #49
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No we need it now now now now now dammit!

Surely you mean the day BEFORE yesterday

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Old
03-30-2012, 02:42 PM
  #50
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I'd imagine STL would be very interested in MDZ, Staal or McDonagh...what forward would interest you? Can't imagine they'd move a core piece like Oshie, Backes, Perron or Berglund...but that still leaves guys like Steen, Tarasenko, Jaden Schwartz, Chris Stewart, Ty Rattie available.

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