Jay Glazer @JayGlazer
Following up a @mortreport that Sean Payton asked Bill Parcells to be interim HC, the 2 are planning to meet in FL this wk to discuss
__________________ <-- Credit goes to The Nemesis.
Jay Glazer @JayGlazer
Following up a @mortreport that Sean Payton asked Bill Parcells to be interim HC, the 2 are planning to meet in FL this wk to discuss
Top 5 in roughing the passer penalties in all three seasons in question.
Top 5 in unneccessary roughness penalties in two of the seasons. The other year they were 6th.
Multiple fines assessed on players in major games.
Sure there was a lot of honest, hard hitting football played, but clearly there is also a track record of excess. Was it driven by well intentioned competitive fire or by the bounty program? Who knows. Sure as hell doesn't look good though.
I don't understand the thinking that a lot of people have though. Your number one goal is to win the championship. Why would you not go after the quarterback of other teams ALL the time? I mean, you want them to be thinking about you every time you drop back, which in turn leaves them thinking less about the play at hand. To get a penalty for roughing the passer is miniscule to the effect that it has on the quarterback. Just because the Saints are finishing their tackles on quarterback's isn't anything wrong. They are trying to get an advantage. What about the team ranked #1 in roughing the passer penalties? Do they have a bounty system going on? Probably, because EVERYONE does. Everyone on their moral high horse has either never played a physical sport, OR has been a "skill/finesse" player rather than a physical, defensive player. When I hit, I hit to hurt. Not to separate the person from the ball, but to put them into next week. You'll be damn sure that person, or another player doesn't try to test coming down my side of the floor again, and if they do, they are running the risk of getting blown up. Of course I don't mean hitting illegally, I mean hitting them as hard as I can.
Top 5 in roughing the passer penalties in all three seasons in question.
Top 5 in unneccessary roughness penalties in two of the seasons. The other year they were 6th.
Multiple fines assessed on players in major games.
Sure there was a lot of honest, hard hitting football played, but clearly there is also a track record of excess. Was it driven by well intentioned competitive fire or by the bounty program? Who knows. Sure as hell doesn't look good though.
One of the reasons they have so many roughing the passer penalties is because they are terrible at getting to the QB to make legal hits to start with.
I don't understand the thinking that a lot of people have though. Your number one goal is to win the championship. Why would you not go after the quarterback of other teams ALL the time? I mean, you want them to be thinking about you every time you drop back, which in turn leaves them thinking less about the play at hand. To get a penalty for roughing the passer is miniscule to the effect that it has on the quarterback. Just because the Saints are finishing their tackles on quarterback's isn't anything wrong. They are trying to get an advantage. What about the team ranked #1 in roughing the passer penalties? Do they have a bounty system going on? Probably, because EVERYONE does.
Finishing tackles isn't anything wrong? Well damn, last I checked, you don't get a 15-yard penalty for "finishing a tackle".
Second, who gives a damn about "effect"? If you want effect, don't keep giving away 15 yards and first downs.
Third, #1 in roughing the passer within a given year probably doesn't have a demonstrated pattern. #1 one year, #16 the next, and #21 after that isn't a pattern...top-5, top-5, top-5 is.
Quote:
Everyone on their moral high horse has either never played a physical sport, OR has been a "skill/finesse" player rather than a physical, defensive player. When I hit, I hit to hurt. Not to separate the person from the ball, but to put them into next week. You'll be damn sure that person, or another player doesn't try to test coming down my side of the floor again, and if they do, they are running the risk of getting blown up. Of course I don't mean hitting illegally, I mean hitting them as hard as I can.
No, I was an offensive and defensive lineman and coached the same. My guys played the game hard and aggressive, but clean. The only 15-yarder any of my guys have ever taken was a facemask call, and it was unintentional.
The idea of giving up 15 yards and a first down in the name of "sending a message" is so stupid and juvenile that my guys are aware of it on the first day of summer camp: if you take an undisciplined penalty, your ass is going on the bench for the rest of the half. That's everyone from the first-team All-Ohio guy I sat down (jumping offside on a 4th-and-short after being specifically told not to move from that spot, even if the ball was snapped) to a JV guy getting a brief interlude for a fatigued starter.
But please, I insist that you continue to tell me about myself.
Just because the Saints are finishing their tackles on quarterback's isn't anything wrong.
Of course I don't mean hitting illegally, I mean hitting them as hard as I can.
That's the problem. The Saints weren't finishing tackles or making clean hits, they were going for killshots. Having two guys high-low Favre in that NFC title game wasn't finishing a tackle it was cheap. That's not how the game is meant to be played. No one has an issue with hard hits, it's intentionally making illegal hits to try to injure a player. That's what the bounty essentially encouraged players to do.
Finishing tackles isn't anything wrong? Well damn, last I checked, you don't get a 15-yard penalty for "finishing a tackle".
What?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee
Second, who gives a damn about "effect"? If you want effect, don't keep giving away 15 yards and first downs.
See, this is where you and I see differently. There is a difference between good penalties and bad penalties. A good penalty is a tripping penalty when someone is on a breakaway, or a goaltender interference after crashing the net. If you have the capability to kill off these penalties, or "stopping" the offense, and capture the win, like the Saints did, why should there be a problem? To give an example, I was playing lacrosse and I just stepped off the bench and I delivered a huge hit after crossing the floor. I got a five minute penalty for charging, it was ********, but guess what my coaches said to me when I got to the penalty box? Did I get reamed out? No. I got congratulated by the coaches and all my teammates loved it. Why? Because my team was really good and had the capability to kill off the 5 minute major. The whole other team on the other hand was shook and we went on to to win the game quite handily. I compare this to the roughing the passer penalty because if you keep hitting the QB late, the quarterback is going to be worried everytime he lets go of that ball. He's going to look around a little bit longer before throwing because he knows someone's coming for him. It's an intimidation thing. Obviously you don't understand that and you wouldn't coach the same as me. There's a reason why the Steelers of the past were so good, the philly teams of the past, the boston bruins of now and past. Why? Because they were scary good. They were really good, and they were intimidating. Why? Because they sometimes broke the rules to scare teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee
Third, #1 in roughing the passer within a given year probably doesn't have a demonstrated pattern. #1 one year, #16 the next, and #21 after that isn't a pattern...top-5, top-5, top-5 is.
There's really no correlation at all between any of those numbers. They just finish their tackles lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee
No, I was an offensive and defensive lineman and coached the same. My guys played the game hard and aggressive, but clean. The only 15-yarder any of my guys have ever taken was a facemask call, and it was unintentional.
Like I said, you and I would coach differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee
The idea of giving up 15 yards and a first down in the name of "sending a message" is so stupid and juvenile that my guys are aware of it on the first day of summer camp: if you take an undisciplined penalty, your ass is going on the bench for the rest of the half. That's everyone from the first-team All-Ohio guy I sat down (jumping offside on a 4th-and-short after being specifically told not to move from that spot, even if the ball was snapped) to a JV guy getting a brief interlude for a fatigued starter.
But please, I insist that you continue to tell me about myself.
I like the intimidation factor, you don't. You call my style juvenile? I call yours soft.
Third, #1 in roughing the passer within a given year probably doesn't have a demonstrated pattern. #1 one year, #16 the next, and #21 after that isn't a pattern...top-5, top-5, top-5 is.
Where are you getting those stats from? According to this site article (admittedly a fansite): http://www.canalstreetchronicles.com...penalty-review in '09 and '10 they were in the top 10 least penalized teams for RTP. The only year the Saints were in the bottom 5 for RTP was last year.
See, this is where you and I see differently. There is a difference between good penalties and bad penalties. A good penalty is a tripping penalty when someone is on a breakaway, or a goaltender interference after crashing the net. If you have the capability to kill off these penalties, or "stopping" the offense, and capture the win, like the Saints did, why should there be a problem? To give an example, I was playing lacrosse and I just stepped off the bench and I delivered a huge hit after crossing the floor. I got a five minute penalty for charging, it was ********, but guess what my coaches said to me when I got to the penalty box? Did I get reamed out? No. I got congratulated by the coaches and all my teammates loved it. Why? Because my team was really good and had the capability to kill off the 5 minute major. The whole other team on the other hand was shook and we went on to to win the game quite handily. I compare this to the roughing the passer penalty because if you keep hitting the QB late, the quarterback is going to be worried everytime he lets go of that ball. He's going to look around a little bit longer before throwing because he knows someone's coming for him. It's an intimidation thing. Obviously you don't understand that and you wouldn't coach the same as me. There's a reason why the Steelers of the past were so good, the philly teams of the past, the boston bruins of now and past. Why? Because they were scary good. They were really good, and they were intimidating. Why? Because they sometimes broke the rules to scare teams.
The Saints didn't simply try to finish their hits and intimidate their opponents, they set up an illegal gambling ring which used terms as "kill shot", "cart off", and "pay me". They weren't simply trying to make a receivers or running backs pay in the context of the game, they broke the rules and lied. There is a reason why contract incentives exist. If you get INT's, sacks, tackles etc, you get a bonus (if the agent negotiated it into the contract, of course). There are no legal incentives for "guys taken out".
And to clarify, I, nor anyone I know, have an issue with hitting guys while in the context of the game. Gambling rings are not part of the game.
Two of the three NFC South teams have spoken up on the punishments handed down, the Falcons owner Arthur Blank and the Bucs' co-chairman Joel Glazer doing the speaking.
PALM BEACH, Fla. -- Atlanta Falcons owner Arthur Blank on Tuesday became the first NFC South owner, including New Orleans' Tom Benson, to publicly address the NFL's punishments of the Saints for their three-year bounty program.
Later Monday, Tampa Bay Buccaneers co-chairman Joel Glazer joined Blank in applauding the league's decision.
Two of the three NFC South teams have spoken up on the punishments handed down, the Falcons owner Arthur Blank and the Bucs' co-chairman Joel Glazer doing the speaking.
Two of the three NFC South teams have spoken up on the punishments handed down, the Falcons owner Arthur Blank and the Bucs' co-chairman Joel Glazer doing the speaking.
Parcells might want to wait to see how many of the Saint's defensive players get suspended for their part in bounty gate. You can pretty much bank on Jon Vilma getting the longest suspension.
I don't understand the thinking that a lot of people have though. Your number one goal is to win the championship. Why would you not go after the quarterback of other teams ALL the time? I mean, you want them to be thinking about you every time you drop back, which in turn leaves them thinking less about the play at hand. To get a penalty for roughing the passer is miniscule to the effect that it has on the quarterback. Just because the Saints are finishing their tackles on quarterback's isn't anything wrong. They are trying to get an advantage. What about the team ranked #1 in roughing the passer penalties? Do they have a bounty system going on? Probably, because EVERYONE does. Everyone on their moral high horse has either never played a physical sport, OR has been a "skill/finesse" player rather than a physical, defensive player. When I hit, I hit to hurt. Not to separate the person from the ball, but to put them into next week. You'll be damn sure that person, or another player doesn't try to test coming down my side of the floor again, and if they do, they are running the risk of getting blown up. Of course I don't mean hitting illegally, I mean hitting them as hard as I can.
Even you back off your point at the end here and acknowledge there is a line. Are going soft?
There sometimes is a thin line between hard play and dirty play. I'm sure the Saints penalties individually come down on both sides of that line.
But you continue to miss the point. The NFL determined the Saints crossed it, were incentivized to cross it and then lied about those actions.
You want to harp about what has taken place on the field, when the greater problems were in the locker room and the executive offices. You're missing the forest for the trees.
It's really pretty cut-and-dry. I don't understand how this is so hard to contemplate.
And cut it with the "everybody does it" excuse. That is not a justification.
EDIT: And for the record, my high horse isn't a moral one. It's a reality one. You got caught. You lied about it repeatedly. You're stupid. You deserve your punishment. If they'd fessed up when confronted with it a few years ago and quit running the bounty program, the penalties wouldn't be nearly as harsh.
Last edited by KallioWeHardlyKnewYe: 03-28-2012 at 11:02 AM.
Where are you getting those stats from? According to this site article (admittedly a fansite): http://www.canalstreetchronicles.com...penalty-review in '09 and '10 they were in the top 10 least penalized teams for RTP. The only year the Saints were in the bottom 5 for RTP was last year.
Audio revealed of Gregg Williams speech to the defense the night before the 49ers game (from someone hired to document the game for the NFL). Audio is NSFW. Gregg Williams telling players to hit people in the people in the head getting out of piles, including Kyle Williams (who had that concussion a few weeks before), and telling players to try to blow up Frank Gore's knee.
Sickeningly hilarious considering how the game ended.
Safe to say Gregg Williams will never be on any sidelines ever again, anywhere. Now that there is actual raw audio, the chances improve that formal criminal charges can be made.
Comes out the day that Payton and Loomis are to have their appeals heard.
Audio revealed of Gregg Williams speech to the defense the night before the 49ers game (from someone hired to document the game for the NFL). Audio is NSFW. Gregg Williams telling players to hit people in the people in the head getting out of piles, including Kyle Williams (who had that concussion a few weeks before), and telling players to try to blow up Frank Gore's knee.
Sickeningly hilarious considering how the game ended.
Safe to say Gregg Williams will never be on any sidelines ever again, anywhere. Now that there is actual raw audio, the chances improve that formal criminal charges can be made.
Comes out the day that Payton and Loomis are to have their appeals heard.
That's what I was going to say. I don't think the Saints ended up hurting 1 49er in that game.
<-- Credit goes to The Nemesis.
