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Marc Staal is he not what we think ?

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Old
03-28-2012, 07:09 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
I will not judge Staal at all until he has a full offseason of recovery.
This. If he still looks like this in October I will start getting worried.

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03-28-2012, 09:21 AM
  #27
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"Staal is a #2 or #3 on most teams. He is NOT a #1.

If you disagree, that is because his name isn't Marc Smith, he has 'Staal' heat. If you need confirmation of this, look at the Caps playoff series last year. He was horrendous."



Staal by all rights should not have been playing last year in the playoffs due to the concussion. That's why he was "horrendous".

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03-28-2012, 09:26 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingWantsCup View Post
Marc Staal is who we thought he was....

That's why we took the damn rink!!!
HAHA!

Staal looks like **** ran over twice the last couple weeks. I don't get it. But my guess is he will be Marc Staal next year, not some imposter wearing #18.

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03-28-2012, 09:39 AM
  #29
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No. If we trade Stall we are not going to get a better player in return while we do not have a replacement. We didn't even replaced Wolski! Staal has not reached his full potential, the kid is still developing. He is not in anyone doghouse either. MCD is just better, period, but you cannot have all 6 Ds like MCD.
Relax, there is no urgency to do anything with this team. Instead of giving Staal away, I'd rather trade Kreider. That could get us a semi-proven NHL star.

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03-28-2012, 09:50 AM
  #30
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I just can't stand that he's not a good passer... His vision isn't horrible, but he's not an accurate passer and it drives me nuts. It's not a very receivable pass either. Very heavy and hard to deal with even if he somehow manages to put it on someone's tape.

And there were several instances last night where he would not pass the puck up ice but instead take the safer lateral pass which is just not good enough when doing it over and over again.


He's still a great 1 on 1 defender though. Can't replace that and because of that, I'd keep him.

And I also think it's stupid that people here constantly want to deal away defenders just because it's a strength of ours. It's so damn hard to get good defensive players that it makes no sense to me. It's also not as if chemistry doesn't matter either. Part of the reason this team is so good is because these players live and breathe for eachother. that is only developed because of a great coach and the fact that they have played together for so many years.

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03-28-2012, 10:04 AM
  #31
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You do not move Staal, you give him the opportunity to go through training camp and prove that he's still the same player next season. Not trying to accuse the OP of this, but too many fans on this board are super-reactionary: as soon as a player has one bad year, he should be moved (i.e. Dubinsky). Most of our guys have earned the benefit of the doubt, an should be given a chance to redeem themselves. Almost every player in the league has a bad season or two, that doesn't mean they should be dumped ASAP.

Hell, in the late 60s Jean Ratelle had a season where he scored 5 goals and 11 points (after several 40-50 point years). If these boards had existed then, I'm sure a bunch of people would be calling for him to get traded. "He'll never live up to his potential".

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03-28-2012, 10:15 AM
  #32
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Every now an then we get to see glimpses of Staal' s old game but not as consistently, I definitely believe he return to beast mode with some rest and a training camp under his belt

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03-28-2012, 10:50 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theJUMPER View Post
Girardi was always better than him.

Staal is a #2 or #3 on most teams. He is NOT a #1.

If you disagree, that is because his name isn't Marc Smith, he has 'Staal' heat. If you need confirmation of this, look at the Caps playoff series last year. He was horrendous.
Well I disagree that he was horrendous, but he was concussed. I think that's a pretty good excuse.

the name argument is one that is used exclusively by people who don't watch Staal play, or don't understand defensive hockey in the slightest.

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03-28-2012, 10:56 AM
  #34
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No, I'm pretty sure he's exactly what I thought he was: a player who didn't do physical activity for many months and missed training camp playing for a team whose gameplan highly depends on the roster being in excellent physical shape. Trying to judge him until next season is completely pointless.

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03-28-2012, 10:59 AM
  #35
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i still dont think staal has been anywhere near as bad as ppl are making him out to be.

is he down a little from his all-star performance last year? Yes. Is he Marek Malik out there? No.

He's a strong 2nd pairing defenseman right now, and a full training season ahead of him he'll be back to where he was.

Even Torts said it will take him that long to get back to it.

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03-28-2012, 11:10 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94now View Post
No. If we trade Stall we are not going to get a better player in return while we do not have a replacement. We didn't even replaced Wolski! Staal has not reached his full potential, the kid is still developing. He is not in anyone doghouse either. MCD is just better, period, but you cannot have all 6 Ds like MCD.
Relax, there is no urgency to do anything with this team. Instead of giving Staal away, I'd rather trade Kreider. That could get us a semi-proven NHL star.
sure we did.

We got Johnny Malkin Mitchell doing just as much of Nothing for this team that Wolski was doing.

Wolski was an easy replacement.

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03-28-2012, 11:37 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
sure we did.

We got Johnny Malkin Mitchell doing just as much of Nothing for this team that Wolski was doing.

Wolski was an easy replacement.
You do not replace a second line winger with 3rd line grinder. Wolski might not live to to what he was supposed to be, but neither did Staal.
Anyway, the point being you must have depth. That is what good team does. Fans want dominance, but what do they know, really? Staal is a solid D. He is great when we are w/o puck. Is he good when we do have puck? Not exactly. But those who are do not come in bunches. Those are elite D. Stall is not an elite defenseman. Is that what you, people, upset about? LOL. No need to be.


Last edited by 94now: 03-28-2012 at 11:47 AM.
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Old
03-28-2012, 11:49 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by SlingshotVv View Post
I put this in an earlier thread about Staal:


By not the player we thought he was, you mean the player that dominated one-vs-one against Malkin, Crosby, and AO regularly?







While highlight vids may not mean much over a long career, look at the majority of these clips. He's not hitting and winning battles vs Tangradi or some Isles scrubs. AO, Crosby, Malkin, E. Staal, Spezza, Kovalchuk, Tavares. The biggest pts getters in our conference over and over again.

Speed, power, good instincts at both ends, good stick, steps into players at the blue-line unlike a lot of our current guys. The guy's playing pretty damn good for having one of his major tools taken away for the season.

Edit: I would recommend muting the first video if you plan on enjoying it.
This. End thread.

He missed an entire training camp and 35 games. He's still trying to catch up. It's near impossible o catch up like that. It's not like he was out with a shoulder injury and was able to everything else in his normal regimen. He was shut down completely. Staal's game is centered around a few strong strides getting him to the right spot to then use his core and upper body strength to make those open ice hits or break up a play and immediately start the transition. If you're off by 0.1 seconds, you aren't successful. His timing just isn't where it normally would be, and while I expect him to continue to amp his game up in the playoffs, he probably won't get back to 100% until he goes through next year's training camp. It's also important to remember that if not for the injury, this likely would've been a huge year for his development. He's improved every year and was getting more and more comfortable joining the play without sacrificing his strength which is shutting down the opposition's best players. He is every bit what we thought he was, and he still has room to improve and if healthy, I GUARANTEE he will. These threads are getting old. Staal is still a top pairing defenseman. Dubinsky is a good second liner / great third liner who is having a bad year offensively. He's also the best on the team at protecting the puck with his rear-end ala Jagr. He's a valuable player. Maybe slightly overpaid but still will be a positive impact player in most years. Gaborik went from 22 goals to 38 and counting. Players have off years. Have some patience. Even with Dubinsky and Boyle's production disappearing, we've been in first place for 3 months and are holding off the stacked Tankguins.

Unrelated thought: How banged up is Prust? The guy is skating like he's 45. Still love him, but what gives? Hes not been nearly as effective as a forechecker as he was in his first couple seasons here.

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03-28-2012, 12:01 PM
  #39
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I'm with this guy.

The fact is, while he has come back to play this year, with that significant gap in training on all levels, most players games fall off a bit.

You have the odd ones like a Sid that can come back and still do the things he was doing pre-injury, but when you make your bones based on hard work and overall strength, missing the amount of time Staal missed saps a player of his strength.

After playing this season from 01/01/12 on, and getting a full off season fo training everything this summer, I will expect last years Staal to start the 2012-13 season.

He will be fine.

THAT said.

Ducks come to me with Ryan for Staal straight up? Buh-bye Staalsy
Time for me to chime in; look, I have a reputation for being a Staal basher on this forum but, to be fair, I really think Staal needs to go thru a full training camp in Sept before we all can accurately assess where his game is and what he wll be going forward.

There has always been a hugh disparity in the opinions around here regarding some of our players especially as it relates to Staal, Gabby and Hank. I personally have always liked Staal defensively with his obvious strengths being his reach, physical presence and positional play.
On the other hand,I have had issues with Staal's skating, specifically his balance and his poor decision making regarding some ill advised pinches offensively during his career.
All things considered, he brings a lot more positives than negatives to the team and I certainly wouldn't consider moving him in a trade at the present time.

We as a team are working from a positon of strength defensively but we have some question marks going forward regarding the anticipated recovery of Sauer, the continued
Improvement in Erixson's game and the return to norm for Marc Staal.

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03-28-2012, 12:40 PM
  #40
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Everyone knows where I stand on Staal. I've been critical of him for several years now, so my thoughts on his play/struggles etc isnt something that just popped up because he's playing poorly.

I think he is a very good defender below the circles. That's about it. Granted, a bulk of the game nowadays is played below the circles, so he does have an impact. He's always been 50/50 on plays to the outside, and he has always had issues with losing his man in 2-on-2 and 3-on-3 rushes. He's not a heavy hitter. Yeah, no need to show the Crosby clip. He has the potential to be a bone crusher, but he chooses not to, and with the concussion, he probably never will be.

IMO, "elite" is not a subjective term. "Elite" means 1st or 2nd All NHL, award winners, scoring leaders, postseason dominance, etc. I just never considered him "elite".

Elite defenders IMO are Lidstrom, Chara, Pronger, Chelios, Bourque etc. Very good defenders are guys like Staal, Chris Phillips, Tim Gleason, Dan Hamhuis...As important as they may be, they arent the end-all be-all defenders.

Staal has always done stupid crap. Horrible pinches. Terrible, terrible on outlet passes. He needs a partner like a Cam Fowler or a Mike Green or a Kris Letang who can control the puck. Beukeboom never lugged the puck up the ice. He never tried to split the forecheckers with home run passes. He served as a backup to Leetch in case Leetch ran into trouble when he rushed the puck up the ice.

That's where I'd like to see Staal get to. Be a safety net, not some wannabe. When you pair him with Bickel, he's basically in control of both ends of the ice, and it doesnt suit him.

My expectations were very high seeing him play in the CHL and where he was drafted. I'm fine with him being a strictly defensive defenseman. But he needs to cut the dumb **** out.

Sometimes I think he's got a 10-cent head. His on-ice decisions jump from Einstein to High Pitch Eric on a shift to shift basis. I'm getting a little tired of it.

Just get to the CF this year, and I'll re-think my stance. If he sucks all postseason I'll be fuming.

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03-28-2012, 01:09 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
No. If we trade Stall we are not going to get a better player in return while we do not have a replacement. We didn't even replaced Wolski! Staal has not reached his full potential, the kid is still developing. He is not in anyone doghouse either. MCD is just better, period, but you cannot have all 6 Ds like MCD.
Relax, there is no urgency to do anything with this team. Instead of giving Staal away, I'd rather trade Kreider. That could get us a semi-proven NHL star.
Those are pretty good points made here. We definitely would not get a better player if we trade Staal now because his game is nowhere near where it was last year.

Regarding ChrisKreider, we've waited this long so we might as well continue to wait until he signs and find out if his skillset will translate to the NHL.

As far as McDonagh is concerned, he has the most upside of any of our defensemen because he is freakishly gifted athlete and one of the best skaters in the league. We really lucked out getting him.

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03-28-2012, 01:12 PM
  #42
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I'll judge him next season after he has a full practice with the team.

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03-28-2012, 01:27 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Everyone knows where I stand on Staal. I've been critical of him for several years now, so my thoughts on his play/struggles etc isnt something that just popped up because he's playing poorly.

I think he is a very good defender below the circles. That's about it. Granted, a bulk of the game nowadays is played below the circles, so he does have an impact. He's always been 50/50 on plays to the outside, and he has always had issues with losing his man in 2-on-2 and 3-on-3 rushes. He's not a heavy hitter. Yeah, no need to show the Crosby clip. He has the potential to be a bone crusher, but he chooses not to, and with the concussion, he probably never will be.

IMO, "elite" is not a subjective term. "Elite" means 1st or 2nd All NHL, award winners, scoring leaders, postseason dominance, etc. I just never considered him "elite".

Elite defenders IMO are Lidstrom, Chara, Pronger, Chelios, Bourque etc. Very good defenders are guys like Staal, Chris Phillips, Tim Gleason, Dan Hamhuis...As important as they may be, they arent the end-all be-all defenders.

Staal has always done stupid crap. Horrible pinches. Terrible, terrible on outlet passes. He needs a partner like a Cam Fowler or a Mike Green or a Kris Letang who can control the puck. Beukeboom never lugged the puck up the ice. He never tried to split the forecheckers with home run passes. He served as a backup to Leetch in case Leetch ran into trouble when he rushed the puck up the ice.

That's where I'd like to see Staal get to. Be a safety net, not some wannabe. When you pair him with Bickel, he's basically in control of both ends of the ice, and it doesnt suit him.

My expectations were very high seeing him play in the CHL and where he was drafted. I'm fine with him being a strictly defensive defenseman. But he needs to cut the dumb **** out.

Sometimes I think he's got a 10-cent head. His on-ice decisions jump from Einstein to High Pitch Eric on a shift to shift basis. I'm getting a little tired of it.

Just get to the CF this year, and I'll re-think my stance. If he sucks all postseason I'll be fuming.

but…. his game isn't really focused below the circles? rewatch any full-game video of him from last season or any clips from his career. Staal's effective because all the plays he makes are at the blue line. It's a major defining factor with his game; wait, it's THE defining factor of his game. red-line to top of our own circles, Staal's one of the best in the game in that neighborhood. You couldn't be more wrong about his game. The fact that you don't notice it tells me about your perspective when it comes to NHL defense.

No free offensive zone time for top units against the kid. None. He challenges at the blue line every shift, and forces teams to actually make a strong play to walk gain the zone. I imagined that would be more noticable now, considering we have a defense that ALWAYS backs into it's own zone a little too deep. So many times when people are whining about the defense this is actually what I keep seeing. Girardi is a half-boards/low slot and below defender, and a damn good one at that.

Staal didn't run around for the hit, nor did he have any reason to not have full faith in his skating, which allowed him to always be in position to step up at the blue line.

The marriage between his game and Girardi's was lockdown defense.
Number one, it's hard as hell to gain a clean entry; number two, you have to outwork two of the toughest workers in the game. goodluck.

I think about McD and Staal's game together. Two smooth skaters, one with a ton of speed, one with a ton of physicality. Both like to get in on the rush, both are willing to hold the blue-line on offense aggressively. And just try creating an open lane across the NYR blueline, witht hat much quickness and smart positional aggressiveness. yeeesh.


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03-28-2012, 01:34 PM
  #44
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Torts has said as much that not having training camp has really affected Marc's game so he has not been asking too much from Marc because of this. Torts recognizes what Marc's limits are without his usually high level of athleticism

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03-28-2012, 02:03 PM
  #45
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Torts has said as much that not having training camp has really affected Marc's game so he has not been asking too much from Marc because of this. Torts recognizes what Marc's limits are without his usually high level of athleticism
Torts statement is misleading. Missing the camp affects relationship between coach and player. Camp is the time when player becomes part of coach's "circle of influence". The ability of the coach to influence his player depends on that relationship. Torts is very sensitive to that aspect. He rid of players with whom he was not able to establish total mental lock ( some exceptions, like Gaborik and Richards do exists). Torts believes that that is one of the reason Stall has underperformed. It may or may not be true, but camp does not effect player physical abilities. Summer workout does by far more. Staal really missed summer, not a few weeks in September.

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03-28-2012, 02:10 PM
  #46
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Torts statement is misleading. Missing the camp affects relationship between coach and player. Camp is the time when player becomes part of coach's "circle of influence". The ability of the coach to influence his player depends on that relationship. Torts is very sensitive to that aspect. He rid of players with whom he was not able to establish total mental lock ( some exceptions, like Gaborik and Richards do exists). Torts believes that that is one of the reason Stall has underperformed. It may or may not be true, but camp does not effect player physical abilities. Summer workout does by far more. Staal really missed summer, not a few weeks in September.
Staal didn't have an offseason of training.

He didn't have camp.

He didn't have preseason to slip into game readiness.

He didn't have on ice team activity in Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, to get his timing and chemistry worked out for playoff-push-level-hockey that the rest of the league was in when he came back. It's not just summer workouts, although I think everyone would agree that's a massive contributing factor given the type of game Staal plays.

So with most players starting date being Sept, and Staal's being Jan… His hockey is where most players would be in November. but unlike most players in november, he hadn't skated or had any meaningful workouts at all the preceeding 4 months (outside of 3 weeks of on ice work prior to returning) and light workouts all through his summer as his headaches and dizziness would come on from any workouts.

It's not some Torts Jedi Mind Trick that is hindering Staal. This is ridiculous.

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03-28-2012, 02:21 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
Everyone knows where I stand on Staal. I've been critical of him for several years now, so my thoughts on his play/struggles etc isnt something that just popped up because he's playing poorly.

I think he is a very good defender below the circles. That's about it. Granted, a bulk of the game nowadays is played below the circles, so he does have an impact. He's always been 50/50 on plays to the outside, and he has always had issues with losing his man in 2-on-2 and 3-on-3 rushes. He's not a heavy hitter. Yeah, no need to show the Crosby clip. He has the potential to be a bone crusher, but he chooses not to, and with the concussion, he probably never will be.

IMO, "elite" is not a subjective term. "Elite" means 1st or 2nd All NHL, award winners, scoring leaders, postseason dominance, etc. I just never considered him "elite".

Elite defenders IMO are Lidstrom, Chara, Pronger, Chelios, Bourque etc. Very good defenders are guys like Staal, Chris Phillips, Tim Gleason, Dan Hamhuis...As important as they may be, they arent the end-all be-all defenders.

Staal has always done stupid crap. Horrible pinches. Terrible, terrible on outlet passes. He needs a partner like a Cam Fowler or a Mike Green or a Kris Letang who can control the puck. Beukeboom never lugged the puck up the ice. He never tried to split the forecheckers with home run passes. He served as a backup to Leetch in case Leetch ran into trouble when he rushed the puck up the ice.

That's where I'd like to see Staal get to. Be a safety net, not some wannabe. When you pair him with Bickel, he's basically in control of both ends of the ice, and it doesnt suit him.

My expectations were very high seeing him play in the CHL and where he was drafted. I'm fine with him being a strictly defensive defenseman. But he needs to cut the dumb **** out.

Sometimes I think he's got a 10-cent head. His on-ice decisions jump from Einstein to High Pitch Eric on a shift to shift basis. I'm getting a little tired of it.

Just get to the CF this year, and I'll re-think my stance. If he sucks all postseason I'll be fuming.
This is an excellent spot on post concerning Staal. I and the majority of my friends have the same opinions on his strengths and the same issues of concern regarding his weaknesses and his sometimes baffling decision making capabilities when pinching in offensively.

I believe we all need to temper our expectations and just give Staal a chance to see where his game ends up once he is 100% healthy and has gone thru a full training camp in September.

Even I as a well known "glass half empty" fan and a guy who has done his share of ragging on Staal in the past am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt going forward..

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03-28-2012, 02:37 PM
  #48
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Call me crazy but I think all of the seasons that he was healthy and dominant for count a lot more than the portion of a season that he's struggling through now after being seriously affected by a brain injury.

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03-28-2012, 02:42 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlingshotVv View Post
but…. his game isn't really focused below the circles? rewatch any full-game video of him from last season or any clips from his career. Staal's effective because all the plays he makes are at the blue line. It's a major defining factor with his game; wait, it's THE defining factor of his game. red-line to top of our own circles, Staal's one of the best in the game in that neighborhood. You couldn't be more wrong about his game. The fact that you don't notice it tells me about your perspective when it comes to NHL defense.

No free offensive zone time for top units against the kid. None. He challenges at the blue line every shift, and forces teams to actually make a strong play to walk gain the zone. I imagined that would be more noticable now, considering we have a defense that ALWAYS backs into it's own zone a little too deep. So many times when people are whining about the defense this is actually what I keep seeing. Girardi is a half-boards/low slot and below defender, and a damn good one at that.

Staal didn't run around for the hit, nor did he have any reason to not have full faith in his skating, which allowed him to always be in position to step up at the blue line.

The marriage between his game and Girardi's was lockdown defense.
Number one, it's hard as hell to gain a clean entry; number two, you have to outwork two of the toughest workers in the game. goodluck.

I think about McD and Staal's game together. Two smooth skaters, one with a ton of speed, one with a ton of physicality. Both like to get in on the rush, both are willing to hold the blue-line on offense aggressively. And just try creating an open lane across the NYR blueline, witht hat much quickness and smart positional aggressiveness. yeeesh.
Agree to disagree. Staal's play in the neutral zone is not why he's recognized. His play along the wall's and puck control below the dots is what makes him a very good defender. Standing up at the blue line or red line and poke checking is something that can be taught overnight and anybody can do it.

The thing about Staal is that when he does stand up at this blue line, he's 50/50 at stopping the play. Teams arent dumb. They know he can be beaten to the outside pre-concussion. Players even dangle him.

Calling Staal a "very smart" player is extrememly difficult for me. Extremely. I think he has a ton of God-given talent (see bloodlines) and great size, but he doesnt know how to marry it all together.

The only thing I can really appreciate Staal for his his patience with the puck below the dots and behind the net. It's a rare ability he has, and faking out forecheckers is something he's been doing for years.

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03-28-2012, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
You do not move Staal, you give him the opportunity to go through training camp and prove that he's still the same player next season. Not trying to accuse the OP of this, but too many fans on this board are super-reactionary: as soon as a player has one bad year, he should be moved (i.e. Dubinsky). Most of our guys have earned the benefit of the doubt, an should be given a chance to redeem themselves. Almost every player in the league has a bad season or two, that doesn't mean they should be dumped ASAP.

Hell, in the late 60s Jean Ratelle had a season where he scored 5 goals and 11 points (after several 40-50 point years). If these boards had existed then, I'm sure a bunch of people would be calling for him to get traded. "He'll never live up to his potential".
It's the EA Sports video game mentality. Every year, each players attributes and production go up.

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