With today's equipment, including helmets, visors etc., a hockey fighters hands take tremendous damage, damage that wouldn't have seemed possible in "the good old days" when players did not where helmets, much less visors. Given these major changes in equipment might it not make sense to take a look at what is considered "code acceptable" in terms of the kind of strikes we allow.
The early Japanese shoot-fighting organization Pancrase considered the question of what damage to the hands might be incurred in a full contact event without protective gloves and came up with the idea of only allowing open handed strikes delivered with the hard heel of the palm. While this may look like "slap fighting", when you examine the Pancrase career results of noted muay thai practitioner Bas Rutten you'll see that a palm strike, delivered by an expert striker, can have nearly the same concussive impact as a closed fist punch, save for superficial facial damage, while preserving the functioning of the hands.
Another option we can examine is the allowance of elbow strikes. The full range of elbow striking techniques, including sok tad, sok sub, sok tee, sok kratung and sok glab could be examined and ruled in or out on a case basis. These elbow striking techniques can be more devastating in terms of their concussive force than closed fist attacks and with hockey elbow pads the usual worries regarding cuts are well minimized.
With an increased acceptance of exotic martial arts techniques in combat situations in western society today and the changes in hockey equipment since the days when the old hockey fighting code came into observance, might the time not be at hand to look at some revisions to the hockey fighting etiquette?
The MMA-style stuff needs to go. The wrestling, the ground-and-pound stuff, the forearm shots, that's lame. I'm not sure how you do it, but guys who fight should stop with that garbage. Just grab the other guy's jersey and chuck em, that's how it's always been.
I appreciate tradition as much as anyone, but no one can deny the damage to the hands of hockey fighters that is incurred with today's equipment. Palm strikes and close quarter forearm and elbow techniques would eliminate this problem.
I just think it's something that's at least worth considering.
The MMA-style stuff needs to go. The wrestling, the ground-and-pound stuff, the forearm shots, that's lame. I'm not sure how you do it, but guys who fight should stop with that garbage. Just grab the other guy's jersey and chuck em, that's how it's always been.
"that's how it's always been."
hmm, you should look at some replays of old-time hockey, when you got in a fight back then it took a lot of guts because "ground-and-pound" happened often, in brawls there was often no-one to save you and it wasn't a far fetch to expect to see guys wrestle on the ice, flipping over and pounding the guy underneath
The point of fighting being in hockey is that you're angry about something. I appreciate that MMA is a more effective way of fighting, but it's not nearly as angry as wanting to pound someone's face in for taking a run at your best player. Elbows, palms, forearms, yeah, they're just as powerful, if not more so, than a punch and better for the attacker, but it's not going to happen. Elbow pads (Which a lot of guys throw off their throwing arm, but not all) and the league trying to crack down on concussions means they're very unlikely to want that to happen.
Another option could be for a combat glove manufacturer like Ouano or Kikskin to get together with hockey glove manufacturers to work on developing a five ounce open hand grappling glove that would fit inside an altered hockey glove and still allow the hockey fighter to grip the stick comfortably while protecting the hands in fights.
Finger dexterity would of course be compromised by necessity but given the hand protection afforded by a vale tudo type glove, it would likely be a trade off that would be welcomed by the majority of players for whom hockey fighting is the primary role.
Another option could be for a combat glove manufacturer like Ouano or Kikskin to get together with hockey glove manufacturers to work on developing a five ounce open hand grappling glove that would fit inside an altered hockey glove and still allow the hockey fighter to grip the stick comfortably while protecting the hands in fights.
Finger dexterity would of course be compromised by necessity but given the hand protection afforded by a vale tudo type glove, it would likely be a trade off that would be welcomed by the majority of players for whom hockey fighting is the primary role.
This would be the perfect place for one of those pictures with the caption: 'not sure if serious'
Hes that one guy every group of friends has that is absolutely mental about the UFC.
Meet 'thatguy'!
Actually, in terms of a spectator sport, I would much rather watch kickboxing or boxing than mma. Unfortunately those gloves wouldn't be of much use in the hockey arena. I do stand by my assertion that muay thai striking techniques would be very effective in close quarter hockey fighting and that open hand Pancrase style palm strikes would make sense as well but you don't seem willing to address the substance of my post on it's merit.
Actually, in terms of a spectator sport, I would much rather watch kickboxing or boxing than mma. Unfortunately those gloves wouldn't be of much use in the hockey arena. I do stand by my assertion that muay thai striking techniques would be very effective in close quarter hockey fighting and that open hand Pancrase style palm strikes would make sense as well but you don't seem willing to address the substance of my post on it's merit.
From the purpose of causing damage to your opponent while causing the least damage to yourself, yes, it makes sense. However, that's not the point of fighting in hockey. A punch is a lot more natural as an angry response to an incident. Also, gloves coming off for fights is sort of what defines a fight. If you throw gloved punches, that's roughing/being a huge dickbag. The point of hockey fighting isn't to provide a sideshow, it's supposed to be an in game retaliation to something (staged fights etc are a separate matter of a different thread).
Hockey players have, for all intents and purposes, the equivalent of loaded handwraps on their elbows. Allowing elbow strikes with these would cause on-ice deaths.
On a related note, MMA should stop allowing elbows. It's sort of ridiculous that they do. Guys can be getting handled in every aspect of the fight, but bleed the other guy out by landing a single elbow that causes one ugly gash. Kenny Florian made a career out of this. Other guy's grinding him down easily, florian lands one elbow from flat on his back at the base of the other guy's hairline (doesn't cause real damage, per se, but bleeds like a mother), doctor stops the fight because they're afraid of blood loss.
I like fighting, think its really part of the game. But hockey players should train to be a better hockey player not a better fighter. Then when the heat rises, you drop the gloves and square off. 10-25 second fights of a few punches and then tossed to the ground. I think its rather funny that you want these guys to train a style that probably takes a lot of time and effort to learn a new technique, what a waste of training time.
The damaging part for these fighters WERE the fact they these guys were asked and some are still asked to fight every game. Sometimes 5x a week. The pre game thoughts could F you up as it is, let alone actually fighting.
The worst part is that most of those "bruisers" or goons, have been through that same ritual since they 15 entering the junior leagues. Boogard was asked as a 15 year old to fight and excite the crowd every single game. Your 15, and if you want to continue to play hockey or make the pros, you got to fight guys older and bigger and more experienced than you. And then you find yourself at the age of 35, having over 1000 fighting PIM for what?
I hated the style where you fight for any stupid reason. I like the instigator rule so long as the NHL keeps its sheriff duties up. I like the way the NHL is heading... hockey players will focus on hockey and when things get heated... you brawl.
Limit the amount of fights per player, limit the amount of fights by a team.
Hockey players have, for all intents and purposes, the equivalent of loaded handwraps on their elbows. Allowing elbow strikes with these would cause on-ice deaths.
On a related note, MMA should stop allowing elbows. It's sort of ridiculous that they do. Guys can be getting handled in every aspect of the fight, but bleed the other guy out by landing a single elbow that causes one ugly gash. Kenny Florian made a career out of this. Other guy's grinding him down easily, florian lands one elbow from flat on his back at the base of the other guy's hairline (doesn't cause real damage, per se, but bleeds like a mother), doctor stops the fight because they're afraid of blood loss.
I would agree that elbow strikes, with the current elbow pads in use, would probably be too damaging to rule in but I would like to see the league consider allowing open palm and forearm techniques in place of closed fist attacks on a trial basis next preseason; I think they might find the trade off worthwhile considering the damage to the hands of hockey fighters that is happening these days do to the changes in equipment, including helmets, visors etc.
I actually think it's a very entertaining idea from a video-game sense, but the chance of the NHL making rule changes with the purpose of "allowing more concussive strikes" right now is approximately zero.
Your argument is protecting guys hands in exchange for damaging their brains. You'll have a tough time finding someone who thinks that's a fair trade off.
Your argument is protecting guys hands in exchange for damaging their brains. You'll have a tough time finding someone who thinks that's a fair trade off.
If we weren't talking about a sport that already sanctioned closed fist bare knuckle strikes to the head I might be more appreciative of their concern for the welfare of players that fill the role of fighters but as it stands I think it's completely feasible to look at ways to protect the hands of fighters by trading off closed fist attacks for other striking techniques that may spare the players the considerable hand damage that is now being incurred in fights.
I wouldn't think that allowing a combination of open palm attacks and close quarter forearm techniques would be any more damaging than what we see now. And again, the hands, crucially from a hockey standpoint, would be spared the torture they undergo with the traditional fighting approach.
If we weren't talking about a sport that already sanctioned closed fist bare knuckle strikes to the head I might be more appreciative of their concern for the welfare of players that fill the role of fighters but as it stands I think it's completely feasible to look at ways to protect the hands of fighters by trading off closed fist attacks for other striking techniques that may spare the players the considerable hand damage that is now being incurred in fights.
I wouldn't think that allowing a combination of open palm attacks and close quarter forearm techniques would be any more damaging than what we see now. And again, the hands, crucially from a hockey standpoint, would be spared the torture they undergo with the traditional fighting approach.
You were saying before that they're more concussive strikes. That's causing more damage to the brain in exchange for the benefit of protecting their hands. Your concept of allowing half gloves furthers that point too. Wearing gloves means you can punch harder than you normally would be able to without fracturing your hand. That's more dangerous.
You were saying before that they're more concussive strikes. That's causing more damage to the brain in exchange for the benefit of protecting their hands. Your concept of allowing half gloves furthers that point too. Wearing gloves means you can punch harder than you normally would be able to without fracturing your hand. That's more dangerous.
Yes, you're right I was, but back then I was talking about allowing certain elbow techniques that would indeed be very dangerous. But I certainly wouldn't agree that allowing open palm and forearm strikes from in close would be any more dangerous than what we see today with closed fist punches to the head. Again, the league could consider the complete panoply of striking techniques that exist in martial arts and decide which ones make sense for hockey on a case basis.
If helmets and visors are such a danger to a hockey player's hands during a fight, then the simple answer is to drop the gloves and remove the helmet. But, that creates an additional risk of a concussion if the player falls and hits their head, so I doubt the league/NHLPA will go for it.
So, new rule. If you wear a visor, and engage in a fight with someone who does not wear a visor, you get an additional 2 minute unsportsmanlike conduct penalty.
