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Old
03-28-2012, 03:37 PM
  #51
OneSharpMarble
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Being a rookie coach has nothing to do with him not having a system or transition to his game. I mean, he's a rookie coach in the NHL, not in his life. He coached for a long time in the minors and also has experience as an assistant in the NHL with us and Atlanta. There's no excuse for him being that bad.
Carbo was a horrible coach, and he was a lot greener than RC, it's actually not even comparable, and he still didn't look as bad as RC.
He has the same staff JM did and the power play was and still is a disaster. Having no NHL experience means making a lot of mistakes, especially if he is trying to play JM's style. He gets outcoached and every mistake is magnified.

I would say that Carbo had it easier, he had a team that had defined roles and much more veteren support. Our team right now is practically in transition where the youngsters are taking over and all of our leaders are either MIA or had terrible seasons. Nothing is set right now, our playstyle is up in the air and we are looking at guys like Subban, Pacioretty, Gorges, Cole and Desharnais for leadership.

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Originally Posted by Muminek View Post
Yes, but do we have the horses for it? Habs are a one-line team followed by offensive back holes. Will the return of Gionta and the developement of the kids be enough? Even then we need a big name forward and those aren`t easy to get. The Pens can play this style but look at their roster. Maybe a defence first system a la Preds/Coyotes would be more suited?
I think instead of looking at the offense we need to look at our defense. We are moving towards a more mobile defense which will help a lot. A good fast transitioning defense can get the puck to our average offensive players much faster and improve them. Out with Gill, Spacek and in with Markov and Kaberle and you get a lot more 1 pass out of the zone and fast into opposition territory.

Also rounding out Plekanecs line will like you said truly give us a second option. We know we have a winner with DD's line but can you honestly say that with one more decent winger that Plekanec cannot match that? Bourque is a third liner, we know that but Gionta should round out his line and Eller on the other side could be a real option.

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03-28-2012, 03:53 PM
  #52
Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I think PG has proven himself to be quick on the button.

Lappy had a chat with him, gone not too late after.
O'Byrne had a chat, same thing, gone the next couple days.
We have a poor start, record wise, but we actually dominate teams, pressure from media, Pearn fired.
Things improve since the horrible start, slightly back to over a .500 record, media keeps pressuring the coach for the boring games, Martin gone.
Cammy calls out team and coach for poor preparations, gets traded soon after.

I think PG has shown he is a very panicky coach. There's too many instances for them to just be coincidences.


What truly should have happened is foreseeing the possibility of missing Markov as well as Hammer, and so, going after a tough minutes Dman in the off season for depth. Not firing Pearn, not firing Martin, trying to find and actually PP shooter if the problems would have persisted as they have all year.
We'd likely be in a PO spot right now.
I agree with the general idea of your post (this team was not far - a tough minutes Dman in the off season... - away from a playoffs spot: they somewhat overreacted) but I would not label the Lapierre and O'Byrne departures as panic moves.

I read (I don't remember where... maybe Gagnon's blog?) that Lapierre said **** you to Martin in front of everyone in the dressing room. The way I see it, from Gauthier pov, it was Lapierre or Martin. Your head coach versus a support player... despite the fact that I disliked Martin (passivity everywhere), it was an easy decision.

The Gill's signing caused O'Byrne departure... too bad because I was hoping for a 3rd pairing of Gorges – O'Byrne.


PS Lapierre was mad because Martin gave his even strength TOI to Pyatt and his PK TOI to Cammalleri. I miss him: he was a perfect pest and a relentless forechecker.

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03-28-2012, 03:58 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I think PG has proven himself to be quick on the button.

Lappy had a chat with him, gone not too late after.
O'Byrne had a chat, same thing, gone the next couple days.
We have a poor start, record wise, but we actually dominate teams, pressure from media, Pearn fired.
Things improve since the horrible start, slightly back to over a .500 record, media keeps pressuring the coach for the boring games, Martin gone.
Cammy calls out team and coach for poor preparations, gets traded soon after.

I think PG has shown he is a very panicky coach. There's too many instances for them to just be coincidences.


What truly should have happened is foreseeing the possibility of missing Markov as well as Hammer, and so, going after a tough minutes Dman in the off season for depth. Not firing Pearn, not firing Martin, trying to find and actually PP shooter if the problems would have persisted as they have all year.
We'd likely be in a PO spot right now.
How long Geoff Molson will endure this situation ? No longer than two more weeks, I hope. Unless he wants to miss the playoffs once again this year and the year after.... + the Nordiques are just around the corner.

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03-28-2012, 04:11 PM
  #54
OneSharpMarble
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I think PG has proven himself to be quick on the button.

Lappy had a chat with him, gone not too late after.
O'Byrne had a chat, same thing, gone the next couple days.
We have a poor start, record wise, but we actually dominate teams, pressure from media, Pearn fired.
Things improve since the horrible start, slightly back to over a .500 record, media keeps pressuring the coach for the boring games, Martin gone.
Cammy calls out team and coach for poor preparations, gets traded soon after.

I think PG has shown he is a very panicky coach. There's too many instances for them to just be coincidences.


What truly should have happened is foreseeing the possibility of missing Markov as well as Hammer, and so, going after a tough minutes Dman in the off season for depth. Not firing Pearn, not firing Martin, trying to find and actually PP shooter if the problems would have persisted as they have all year.
We'd likely be in a PO spot right now.
If Martin was "quick on the button" JM would have been fired after his abysmal start that ruined our season. He would have traded Subban when he was slumping hard and Pleks would probably have been dished aswell. We weren't "dominating teams" we were eeking out games with a goal or two.

Laps and O'byrne are 3rd pairing/3rd line talents, they are easy to deal so I don't think they needed some grand treatment. They weren't working out and they were moved, time to move on. Pearn and Martin were both failures in their respective positions, no reason to keep them on or think for a second they would take this team any further than "bubble status", they had every opportunity and showed they are not NHL material.

If your team doctors tell you Markov will be ready you take their advice, you don't chase after redundant players.

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Old
03-28-2012, 04:29 PM
  #55
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So Martin and Cunney combined have 29 wins thus far. Not bad considering Detroit and St-Louis have 30................................................ .............................at home.

Only 12 more days 'till x-mas. I mean spring cleaning.

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03-28-2012, 04:57 PM
  #56
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In the summer of 1997, two NHL teams hired new coaches named Lindy Ruff and Alain Vigneault. Both have had considerable success since then. One even still has the same job. The other organization has hired good coaches but keeps firing them mid season with little or no results afterward.

Very interesting this season that Lindy Ruff's team underachieved big time but his organization again did not panic and left him in place and are now being rewarded for that patience. The other organization fired a coach who had never been fired mid season before, had made the playoffs in twelve of his fifteen full seasons coaching in the NHL and in both full seasons of his current gig.

Also interesting that the two coaches in the finals last year were also fired by this same organization.

At what point does it become apparent that coaching is not the issue with this organization and perhaps the problem lies elsewhere?

Some food for thought: The Detroit Red Wings, arguably the most sucessful NHL franchise of the last 25 years, have not fired a coach in season since 1985-86.

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03-28-2012, 05:13 PM
  #57
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I like to believe that this utterly retarded move of replacing JM mid-season with someone so unfit for the job and tagging him "interim" in the process ultimately came from Molson and not PG. But I don't care anymore. Just fire PG. He should take responsibility. Assuming the order did come from Molson and PG didn't agree, the latter should have shown conviction and quit on his own. He didn't. So he should take the blame.

If Molson doesn't fire PG in the summer for this monumental debacle, it would be another sign that Molson was behind this stupid move.

Edit: ^^^Chili: I agree with you COMPLETELY. The impatience of this org is second only to that of its fans.


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Old
03-28-2012, 05:57 PM
  #58
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
If Martin was "quick on the button" JM would have been fired after his abysmal start that ruined our season. He would have traded Subban when he was slumping hard and Pleks would probably have been dished aswell. We weren't "dominating teams" we were eeking out games with a goal or two.

Laps and O'byrne are 3rd pairing/3rd line talents, they are easy to deal so I don't think they needed some grand treatment. They weren't working out and they were moved, time to move on. Pearn and Martin were both failures in their respective positions, no reason to keep them on or think for a second they would take this team any further than "bubble status", they had every opportunity and showed they are not NHL material.

If your team doctors tell you Markov will be ready you take their advice, you don't chase after redundant players.
All I'm seeing here is you defending every possible decision..
Look, you can like PG all you want, I think the man had taken good decisions up until this season. What he has done this year however is unacceptable.

Yes, we were dominating a lot of games earlier on, yet still losing.

And there is no point in firing a coach unless you know the candidate coming up will actually be good for your team. He misread RC completely.
It's not because he hasn't moved everybody that he isn't trigger happy.

Also, I have no problem with the Markov signing. I'd do it again. The problem was completely under rating the importance of Hammer. I expected that much from fans, but not from the GM. And no matter how healthy doctors say Markov is, you know how little action he has seen and remains, risky. He had no fallback plan. That's a mistake no matter how you want to spin it.

I also dont care about Lappy or O'Byrne. But they are examples of players being moved quickly after they complained to GM. I don't care if they were 4th liners, irrelevant to the point.

Gauthier is not free of mistakes buddy. At least acknowledge it.

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03-28-2012, 06:38 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
All I'm seeing here is you defending every possible decision..
Look, you can like PG all you want, I think the man had taken good decisions up until this season. What he has done this year however is unacceptable.

Yes, we were dominating a lot of games earlier on, yet still losing.

And there is no point in firing a coach unless you know the candidate coming up will actually be good for your team. He misread RC completely.
It's not because he hasn't moved everybody that he isn't trigger happy.

Also, I have no problem with the Markov signing. I'd do it again. The problem was completely under rating the importance of Hammer. I expected that much from fans, but not from the GM. And no matter how healthy doctors say Markov is, you know how little action he has seen and remains, risky. He had no fallback plan. That's a mistake no matter how you want to spin it.

I also dont care about Lappy or O'Byrne. But they are examples of players being moved quickly after they complained to GM. I don't care if they were 4th liners, irrelevant to the point.

Gauthier is not free of mistakes buddy. At least acknowledge it.
"Dominating" is not in JM's vocabulary. We havn't dominated a team since we got him and certainly havn't since he left. That is hilarious to think JM's game style of letting the opposition do whatever they want and us waiting for a rebound/mistake is your definition of "domination". Revisionist history at its best. Ask Halak how much "domination" went on during that cup run which was supposedly the pinnacle of JM's tenure here.

There was a great reason to fire JM and that was he wasn't doing his job, the NHL had past him by, he was stifling the teams natural abilities and he wasn't the future of the organization. They put an interim in place because JM had killed the season already and there wasn't a better option available. Why keep a loser like JM when he is doing more harm than good? RC was put in place to not only be interim they were giving him a chance to show if he was ready or not with zero pressure and/or gain experience. Pretty simple to me.

Hammer was not under-rated and luckily PG did not sign him. He has lost a step and would be a bad contract like everyone here whines about Kaberle. I guess in your mind "not being able to see the future" is a mistake, thanks miss cleo.

Lappy and obyrne are one step up from worthless, they were moved quickly because of their low value, simple as that. No one but you seem to care about a couple plugs who are plentiful in the offseason. That is really how a team should work, if you are redundant/worthless/a cancer you should be shipped out. This isn't a day care.

PG "mistakes" are along the lines of "getting a late 2nd round pick instead of an early one" and rumors started by people who whine about montreal media and then do the exact same thing. His biggest and only real noteworthy mistake was not firing JM much sooner and letting Muller take over. It is a damn shame we have been tied to this bilingual garbage that does nothing but drag the team into the mud.

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Old
03-28-2012, 06:50 PM
  #60
Ollie Williams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
"Dominating" is not in JM's vocabulary. We havn't dominated a team since we got him and certainly havn't since he left. That is hilarious to think JM's game style of letting the opposition do whatever they want and us waiting for a rebound/mistake is your definition of "domination". Revisionist history at its best. Ask Halak how much "domination" went on during that cup run which was supposedly the pinnacle of JM's tenure here.

There was a great reason to fire JM and that was he wasn't doing his job, the NHL had past him by, he was stifling the teams natural abilities and he wasn't the future of the organization. They put an interim in place because JM had killed the season already and there wasn't a better option available. Why keep a loser like JM when he is doing more harm than good? RC was put in place to not only be interim they were giving him a chance to show if he was ready or not with zero pressure and/or gain experience. Pretty simple to me.

Hammer was not under-rated and luckily PG did not sign him. He has lost a step and would be a bad contract like everyone here whines about Kaberle. I guess in your mind "not being able to see the future" is a mistake, thanks miss cleo.

Lappy and obyrne are one step up from worthless, they were moved quickly because of their low value, simple as that. No one but you seem to care about a couple plugs who are plentiful in the offseason. That is really how a team should work, if you are redundant/worthless/a cancer you should be shipped out. This isn't a day care.

PG "mistakes" are along the lines of "getting a late 2nd round pick instead of an early one" and rumors started by people who whine about montreal media and then do the exact same thing. His biggest and only real noteworthy mistake was not firing JM much sooner and letting Muller take over. It is a damn shame we have been tied to this bilingual garbage that does nothing but drag the team into the mud.
We have had some very good bilingual coaches in the past. We just fire them all the time because they get pinned as the problem time and time again (just like JM) when, instead, the GM should look at himself in the mirror and say "maybe i'm doing something wrong". The record in this season alone will tell you that we went from a .500 team under JM to god awful after he was gone.

A team who replaces a coach when the coach, in fact, really was the problem is very clear. Just look at the Pens and St.Louis.

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Old
03-28-2012, 07:02 PM
  #61
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I made this thread because we are witness to the worst habs team ever and that's an acomplishment.
That's not exactly true. The Habs at one time were so bad that no one came to watch them. The Maple Leafs were worried that they would go under like the Maroons and the Wanders, so they got Gorman to hire Dick Irvin and later Frank Selke can to GM the team.

So no this was not the worse Habs team ever.

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03-28-2012, 07:09 PM
  #62
OneSharpMarble
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We have had some very good bilingual coaches in the past. We just fire them all the time because they get pinned as the problem time and time again (just like JM) when, instead, the GM should look at himself in the mirror and say "maybe i'm doing something wrong". The record in this season alone will tell you that we went from a .500 team under JM to god awful after he was gone.

A team who replaces a coach when the coach, in fact, really was the problem is very clear. Just look at the Pens and St.Louis.
That doesn't tell you that we went from a bad caoch to a even worse one? If you want to blame the GM get some kind of proof he is doing a bad jonb, the GM has almost no effect on the teams play outside of trades/signings. The team on paper is fine, the abysmal powerplay and performance is on the coaching staff.

Coaching has been the problem for a long time, too much "old boys club" and biligualism screwing everything up.

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03-28-2012, 07:10 PM
  #63
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I think the PG/Gainey has more of the blame than some people here make it seem. Looking back at this season, the records of the two coaches speak for themselves.

Under JM: 32 Games, 13 - 12 - 7

Under Randy: 45 Games, 16 - 22 - 7

I don't think JM was ever as terrible as some people made him out to be. I also don't put any blame on Randy as he's extremely inexperienced and was placed into a terrible situation and a lost cause. My question is: when do we start placing the blame on the people responsible for assembling this team? Why is it that people, like Claude Julien and Alain Vigneault, are sent packing when they are not the problem? We walked into this season with 50% of the defense combined having less than 1 season of NHL games played. One of them didn't even speak English. What exactly did we expect from that? A Stanley Cup?

I would love to have an amazing experienced coach. If the managers in charge of filling the roster don't help him out though, he will be booted just like the rest of them, once again, relieving the people responsible for the problem in the first place. This has to stop.

I agree with everything you said except Alain Vigneault was long gone before Gainey or Gauthier were here. They are so dumb they probably have to be escorted across Sherbrooke St. but we can't blame them for Alain Vigneault.

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03-28-2012, 07:18 PM
  #64
Ollie Williams
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That doesn't tell you that we went from a bad caoch to a even worse one? If you want to blame the GM get some kind of proof he is doing a bad jonb, the GM has almost no effect on the teams play outside of trades/signings. The team on paper is fine, the abysmal powerplay and performance is on the coaching staff.

Coaching has been the problem for a long time, too much "old boys club" and biligualism screwing everything up.
No. I think a .500 club with the roster he was given is quite an accomplishment. Also, to touch on the point you bring up, isn't going from a bad coach to a worse coach (in your eyes), 32 games into the season, proof of the GM doing a bad job?

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I agree with everything you said except Alain Vigneault was long gone before Gainey or Gauthier were here. They are so dumb they probably have to be escorted across Sherbrooke St. but we can't blame them for Alain Vigneault.
I understand that. I was referring to the mentality of making the coach pay when he really doesn't deserve that. Different GMs, same results.


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03-28-2012, 07:30 PM
  #65
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No. I think a .500 club with the roster he was given is quite an accomplishment. Also, to touch on the point you bring up, isn't going from a bad coach to a worse coach (in your eyes) proof of the GM doing a bad job?



I understand that. I was referring to the mentality of making the coach pay when he really doesn't deserve that. Different GMs, same results.

That is why teams are lining up to hire him as their coach right? Him and Carbo, two superstar coaches who no one wants.

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03-28-2012, 07:32 PM
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That is why teams are lining up to hire him as their coach right? Him and Carbo, two superstar coaches who no one wants.
Not once did I talk about Carbo, nor did I call anyone a superstar. I don't know if JM has gotten any offers either even though he has a job with the team right now (frankly, you wouldn't know that either).

Furthermore, you haven't answered my question which I will gladly repeat in case you didn't see it:

Quote:
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Also, to touch on the point you bring up, isn't going from a bad coach to a worse coach (in your eyes), 32 games into the season, proof of the GM doing a bad job?

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03-28-2012, 07:37 PM
  #67
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Imnkt saying that the coaches were great, but jeez responsibility lies on the players as well.
They simply chocked whenever they had a lead.

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03-28-2012, 07:40 PM
  #68
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The team on paper is fine

Seriously? We have a few good elements but this team is far from fine.

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03-28-2012, 08:38 PM
  #69
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RC hasn't done much. Then again cue the whiners if he finds another NHL head coaching job and becomes a winner, much like Vigneault has. Some coaches are only as good as the roster they're given. Gauthier is the ultimate man to point the finger at. I feel more pity for Cunneyworth than frustration. He's a likeable mediocrity. How can I dislike a guy who helped us to a tank anyway? Guy's done his best and like everyone else in recent history is getting his feet wet as the Habs head coach so he can go on to do good stuff elsewhere probably. Just not ready to be a good NHL coach yet and certainly not with this injury-prone, talent-thin roster.

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03-28-2012, 08:46 PM
  #70
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Cunneyworth has this team playing at it's natural talent level.

I think that many of the last 20 years our team has overachieved, never allowing us to get an appropriate talent in return during the draft.

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03-28-2012, 09:11 PM
  #71
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For what it is worth.......I could stand behind the bench of the Montreal Canadiens right now and roll 4 lines for 3 periods........and just might win the game.

RC SUCKS ASS.

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03-28-2012, 09:25 PM
  #72
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Go cheer for another team if you don't like the canadiens.
Haha, you obviously don't get the point... There'd be a sh*tload of Habs fans who'd cheer for another team if this was the case. He's talking about the 2011-2012 roster/management/coaching staff and he's effing right about it. Not about the franchise as a whole. If you can't understand this maybe you should try putting more effort into reading before posting stupid stuff.

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03-28-2012, 09:31 PM
  #73
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I'm not sure how much of this is the coach/mgmt fault and how much the players just suck? How many teams give Campoli 17 mins on ice? What does that say about our back end talent, sure we have some gems in Subban/Markov and hopefully Emelin (from what I saw last night, not that great).

The other thing wrong with this season is the shootout, losing 10 games in the SO is tough, I mean a few more wins in one goal games (have been a lot), and SO wins and this team is in the 'offs.

But I guess the team doesn't get unlucky and win a few one goal games and SO losses, they lose because they aren't good enough.

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03-28-2012, 09:32 PM
  #74
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At what point does PG get any blame at all from his defenders? Never, it seems even our lottery position is a brilliant plan he has designed.

Campoli - absolutely atrocious as a cover signing. Or as a signing period.

Kaberle - atrocious panic move for the team we have, we needed a defensive player, or a big PP point shot maybe, not another soft zero-d no-shot player at the time. He is much less mobile than imagined. No leadership, no fire or fight, bad contract.

Weber & Diaz - seriously you can't go into a season with both these guys penciled in. You just can't, they are pretty bad defensively. Combined with Kaberle and Campoli, that is a nuclear back-end assembly. Yes Markov isn't anyone's fault; but you can trade or make better moves.

That's just the D; to say little of personnel management, trading, forwards...

PG is not blameless in assembling one of the 3 worst teams in the league, the roster is thin and littered with 4th liners. Some of it is due to injury but not all. Plus even though JM needed to go, it had to be done with more consideration about a successor; and had to be done without looking down the bench to the next guy - RC, the one responsible for the leagues worst pp - and promoting him. His ability to identify the wrongs on the team and his attempts to right them are the absolute opposite of what we should do.

He's made some good moves, a couple of excellent ones; but our position reflects on his abilities more than anyone's. He has to be sent packing with RC and co.

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03-28-2012, 09:32 PM
  #75
habitue*
 
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Originally Posted by Classified View Post
I'm not sure how much of this is the coach/mgmt fault and how much the players just suck? How many teams give Campoli 17 mins on ice? What does that say about our back end talent, sure we have some gems in Subban/Markov and hopefully Emelin (from what I saw last night, not that great).

The other thing wrong with this season is the shootout, losing 10 games in the SO is tough, I mean a few more wins in one goal games (have been a lot), and SO wins and this team is in the 'offs.

But I guess the team doesn't get unlucky and win a few one goal games and SO losses, they lose because they aren't good enough.
Give him a chance. The guy never played so much hockey games in the same season.

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