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The Official Ex-Habs Thread Part IV (All Former Habs Players Discussed Here!)

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Old
03-27-2012, 03:42 PM
  #551
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by Coach Brisebois View Post
That's no straw man.. based only on their play with us, Bourque has been far better than Cammy. (this year, only games played for Montreal)
Yeah right. As invisible as both players may seem (or have seemed), Cammy at least had something like 9 goals and 20+ points to show for his first 38 games of the season with us (and was only -6), and still managed to generate something like 100+ shots along the way. That contributed far more, obviously, than whatever Bourque has brought to his first 32 games with us. And by "whatever", I mean 4 goals, 7 points, 59 shots, and -17.

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03-27-2012, 04:03 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I wouldnt go that far, but the obvious part for this season is, production wise :

Bourque in Cal : decent
Bourque in Mtl : bad
Cammy in Cal : decent
Cammy in Mtl : bad


and we could add
AK in Nash : decent
AK in Mtl (this season) : bad
AK gets a few points and then completely vanishes in nashville, how is that decent exactly? He did the same thing here and that is why he is a 3rd line player.

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03-27-2012, 04:36 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Yeah right. As invisible as both players may seem (or have seemed), Cammy at least had something like 9 goals and 20+ points to show for his first 38 games of the season with us (and was only -6), and still managed to generate something like 100+ shots along the way. That contributed far more, obviously, than whatever Bourque has brought to his first 32 games with us. And by "whatever", I mean 4 goals, 7 points, 59 shots, and -17.
Bourque's -17 is better hockey than Cammy's 9 goals.

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03-27-2012, 04:40 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
AK gets a few points and then completely vanishes in nashville, how is that decent exactly? He did the same thing here and that is why he is a 3rd line player.
I don't see many people complaining about what he brings over on the Preds board. It might be that we just expect too much out of certain players because we don't have any star caliber players on this team.

He's a 3rd line player, yet we can't even find players to play with Pleky on the second line.

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03-27-2012, 05:10 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
AK gets a few points and then completely vanishes in nashville, how is that decent exactly? He did the same thing here and that is why he is a 3rd line player.
I suspect you aren't actually watching him play in Nashville. If you are, then you simply aren't giving him credit for what he is doing.

His 'few points' are 8 points in 13 games. 2 GWG not including his shootout winner. His points are helping the Preds win points in the league.

As for him completely vanishing, where did you get that from? Because he went a few games without putting up points? He did have a couple of games in a row where he struggled to have an impact but even in those games, he made some good plays and helped his team. Towards the end of that run of games, Coach Trotz had this to say about the line he was on:

"But the line Trotz was most complementary of was the Bourque-Andrei Kostitsyn-Spaling unit, noting they generated a couple of great scoring chances with the puck and were hard & detailed in their play without the puck." Link

While he 'completely vanished' for the Preds, he still generated quality scoring chances for himself and his linemates (could easily be at PPG pace right now if he had converted some of his chances and his linemates didn't miss open nets and wide open shots between the hash marks), played physically, drew penalties and made some good defensive plays as well like backchecking Hossa the other night and taking the puck off him, which probably only happened because Hossa didn't see him as AK had completely vanished (apparently).

Sure, he had a few rough games in the past couple of weeks but he still did some good things when he was at his lowest point with the Preds. But most of the time though, he has been at least decent to good for the Preds and gives them some of the attributes their team needs. He's meshed well with a range of players so far in Nashville (Fisher, SK, Legwand, Hornqvist, Bourque, Spalling) and his coach seems to like his effort, his physical play and the skills he brings in the offensive zone. Doesn't sound like he completely vanished to me, nor has he looked like he has completely vanished. But then again, maybe your definition of vanished is somewhat warped.

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03-27-2012, 05:13 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Qui Gon Dave View Post
I suspect you aren't actually watching him play in Nashville. If you are, then you simply aren't giving him credit for what he is doing.

His 'few points' are 8 points in 13 games. 2 GWG not including his shootout winner. His points are helping the Preds win points in the league.

As for him completely vanishing, where did you get that from? Because he went a few games without putting up points? He did have a couple of games in a row where he struggled to have an impact but even in those games, he made some good plays and helped his team. Towards the end of that run of games, Coach Trotz had this to say about the line he was on:

"But the line Trotz was most complementary of was the Bourque-Andrei Kostitsyn-Spaling unit, noting they generated a couple of great scoring chances with the puck and were hard & detailed in their play without the puck." Link

While he 'completely vanished' for the Preds, he still generated quality scoring chances for himself and his linemates (could easily be at PPG pace right now if he had converted some of his chances and his linemates didn't miss open nets and wide open shots between the hash marks), played physically, drew penalties and made some good defensive plays as well like backchecking Hossa the other night and taking the puck off him, which probably only happened because Hossa didn't see him as AK had completely vanished (apparently).

Sure, he had a few rough games in the past couple of weeks but he still did some good things when he was at his lowest point with the Preds. But most of the time though, he has been at least decent to good for the Preds and gives them some of the attributes their team needs. He's meshed well with a range of players so far in Nashville (Fisher, SK, Legwand, Hornqvist, Bourque, Spalling) and his coach seems to like his effort, his physical play and the skills he brings in the offensive zone. Doesn't sound like he completely vanished to me, nor has he looked like he has completely vanished. But then again, maybe your definition of vanished is somewhat warped.
I think you just made everything make sense... over the years i've watched some good players get hated on for doing the right things, over and over.. Bonk, Latendresse, Kostitsyn... I get it now.. other Montreal fans can't see defensive plays. When a player makes a smart defensive play, they become invisible to those fans (probably the same ones supporting the tank)

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03-27-2012, 05:23 PM
  #557
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Bourque has managed to take Pleks down with him. He is one of these players that sucks the life from a team.

Hope the new GM sends him packing, and we sign a UFA winger.

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03-27-2012, 05:26 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
AK gets a few points and then completely vanishes in nashville, how is that decent exactly? He did the same thing here and that is why he is a 3rd line player.
difference is, in Nashville he's used as a 3rd liner and produces like one...

here he was used as a 4th liner and produced like one obviously...

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03-27-2012, 08:29 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by Coach Brisebois View Post
That's no straw man.. based only on their play with us, Bourque has been far better than Cammy. (this year, only games played for Montreal)
?

As much as this was a horrible year for Cammy there's no way that he was worse than Bourque.

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03-27-2012, 08:36 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
?

As much as this was a horrible year for Cammy there's no way that he was worse than Bourque.
Pretty much equal value for both as I see it.

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03-27-2012, 09:08 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
?

As much as this was a horrible year for Cammy there's no way that he was worse than Bourque.
Pretty much equal value for both as I see it.

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03-27-2012, 09:25 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
difference is, in Nashville he's used as a 3rd liner and produces like one...

here he was used as a 4th liner and produced like one obviously...
We used him on the third line and he produced like one, what are you talking about?

Where did the people go who said he was 1st line talent? They have all disappeared I guess.

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03-27-2012, 09:33 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
We used him on the third line and he produced like one, what are you talking about?

Where did the people go who said he was 1st line talent? They have all disappeared I guess.
Hornqvist does more than AK. But no one seems to covet him.

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03-27-2012, 10:38 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
We used him on the third line and he produced like one, what are you talking about?

Where did the people go who said he was 1st line talent? They have all disappeared I guess.
He was a decent 2nd line player. We wasted him for nothing.

Again, I don't know why you seem obsessed with defending these stupid moves. I still don't understand how you can rip Gainey the way you did and be so steadfast in your support of PG. What gives man?

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03-28-2012, 07:24 PM
  #565
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Who knows, Timmins' worst draft might churn out a couple NHLers (I think White already qualifies as one).

Ben Maxwell has 5 points in his last 5 games with the Jets. Not impossible he becomes a full time NHLer.

David Fischer is having pretty good year in the ECHL, 50 points in 62 games. Not impossible he continues on to having success in the AHL. Anything can happen after that.

Mathieu Carle is having a career year statistically in the AHL with 37 points in 63 games. Not impossible he gets called up at some point.

Pavel Valentenko has 19 points in 52 games, not sure how he's playing since he's a defensive D. Not sure about his NHL outlook either.


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03-28-2012, 07:34 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Who knows, Timmins' worst draft might churn out a couple NHLers (I think White already qualifies as one).

Ben Maxwell has 5 points in his last 5 games with the Jets. Not impossible he becomes a full time NHLer.

David Fischer is having pretty good year in the ECHL, 50 points in 62 games. Not impossible he continues on to having success in the AHL. Anything can happen after that.

Mathieu Carle is having a career year statistically in the AHL with 37 points in 63 games. Not impossible he gets called up at some point.

Pavel Valentenko has 19 points in 52 games, not sure how he's playing since he's a defensive D. Not sure about his NHL outlook either.
I'm not accusing you of anything, but I hate when people talk well of prospects like Maxwell when they get a little point streak going and start questioning, but scoff at when prospects on our team are doing the same(like Palushaj).

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03-28-2012, 08:02 PM
  #567
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Ben Maxwell will amount to nothing.
I remember him in training camp,,,,,,,,,all the skills in the world but no guts.

Not guts no glory.

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03-28-2012, 08:20 PM
  #568
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I'm not accusing you of anything, but I hate when people talk well of prospects like Maxwell when they get a little point streak going and start questioning, but scoff at when prospects on our team are doing the same(like Palushaj).
Don't forget Wyman and Mark Flood.

I like rooting for our former picks to make the NHL since it shows we have good drafting. Doesn't mean I want them on my team.

Is suggesting they maybe make it as a regular in the NHL considered speaking well? I see both Maxwell and Palushaj as similar types. Considering you lumped them together, perhaps you somewhat feel the same. I don't think either make the NHL as regular but who knows it could happen.

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03-28-2012, 09:22 PM
  #569
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Who knows, Timmins' worst draft might churn out a couple NHLers (I think White already qualifies as one).

Ben Maxwell has 5 points in his last 5 games with the Jets. Not impossible he becomes a full time NHLer.

David Fischer is having pretty good year in the ECHL, 50 points in 62 games. Not impossible he continues on to having success in the AHL. Anything can happen after that.

Mathieu Carle is having a career year statistically in the AHL with 37 points in 63 games. Not impossible he gets called up at some point.

Pavel Valentenko has 19 points in 52 games, not sure how he's playing since he's a defensive D. Not sure about his NHL outlook either.
I like Timmins, but the 2006 draft was 6 years ago. If players break into the NHL 7 or 8 years after being drafted, then they are not successful draft picks.

I make an exception for Mathieu Carle. He may have been a good draft pick, but he got a lot of serious injuries, so it's not a strike against the scouting and development staff.

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03-28-2012, 10:36 PM
  #570
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He was a decent 2nd line player. We wasted him for nothing.

Again, I don't know why you seem obsessed with defending these stupid moves. I still don't understand how you can rip Gainey the way you did and be so steadfast in your support of PG. What gives man?
If you can't see the difference between dumping our best prospect without so much as one NHL game for the worst contract in the league VS getting a 2nd round pick for a 3rd line player then you are beyond hope.

PG is a ****ing godsend compared to gainey.

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03-28-2012, 11:15 PM
  #571
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I like Timmins, but the 2006 draft was 6 years ago. If players break into the NHL 7 or 8 years after being drafted, then they are not successful draft picks.

I make an exception for Mathieu Carle. He may have been a good draft pick, but he got a lot of serious injuries, so it's not a strike against the scouting and development staff.
Don't get me wrong, that draft will always be a fail. IMO even if a player ends up having some success 6-8 years after being drafted (as a 24-26 year old) it shows that the scouts were at least right enough to see NHL talent. I rather have very slow developing eventual NHLers as our busts than players that never see a NHL game.


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If you can't see the difference between dumping our best prospect without so much as one NHL game for the worst contract in the league VS getting a 2nd round pick for a 3rd line player then you are beyond hope.

PG is a ****ing godsend compared to gainey.
Please don't act like you were perfectly fine with Gainey before the Gomez trade...are people really willing to wait until Gauthier does his own rendition of the Gomez trade (which he was a key managerial member for but of course it means nothing to you) before finally realizing he's not a good GM.


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03-29-2012, 12:14 AM
  #572
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Please don't act like you were perfectly fine with Gainey before the Gomez trade...are people really willing to wait until Gauthier does his own rendition of the Gomez trade (which he was a key managerial member for but of course it means nothing to you) before finally realizing he's not a good GM.
I was pretending that the gomez trade pushed me over the edge with gainey? Everyone should know by now I hated gainey long before that trade. I merely highlighted it as his "Pièce de résistance" so to speak. No I was telling people what a dimwit he was long before that as I watched him sit on his hands while the team collapsed and the so called "true fans" said he was simply "too schrewd" to make a move.

Judging by PG's past moves he will not make such a folly, he tends to get reasonable value for players and makes moves when they are nessessary. If you want to show me some documented proof saying PG was in favor of the gomez trade then we can continue but if not please stop making up garbage.

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03-29-2012, 02:05 AM
  #573
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I was pretending that the gomez trade pushed me over the edge with gainey? Everyone should know by now I hated gainey long before that trade. I merely highlighted it as his "Pièce de résistance" so to speak. No I was telling people what a dimwit he was long before that as I watched him sit on his hands while the team collapsed and the so called "true fans" said he was simply "too schrewd" to make a move.

Judging by PG's past moves he will not make such a folly, he tends to get reasonable value for players and makes moves when they are nessessary. If you want to show me some documented proof saying PG was in favor of the gomez trade then we can continue but if not please stop making up garbage.
Yeah, you've made that opinion clear don't worry. Just like you're making your opinion clear about Gauthier.

How are Gauthier's moves in his first 2+ years any better than Gainey's moves in his first 2+ years? How did such an amazing GM turn a team that went to the conference finals into a lottery team with a weak prospect pool in a little over 2 years? Well I guess at least he acquired a couple 2nd rounders to make up for the ones he traded away. We got a taller too. Kaberle and Bourque haven't played well but they were good in the past so they can only be good in the future (unlike Gomez). Got rid of 3rd liners like SK who only lead a crappy Preds team in scoring that made the 2nd round last season.

I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to believe that during Gainey's 7 year tenure as GM he had significant input from from the Assistant GM he hired, Director of Professional Scouting he hired, and Director of amateur scouting he promoted when making trades, signing players, and drafting.

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03-29-2012, 04:06 AM
  #574
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Yeah, you've made that opinion clear don't worry. Just like you're making your opinion clear about Gauthier. Couldn't have been too clear seeing as how you were whining about me trying to "act like you were perfectly fine with Gainey before the Gomez trade" Which one was it again?

How are Gauthier's moves in his first 2+ years any better than Gainey's moves in his first 2+ years? How did such an amazing GM turn a team that went to the conference finals into a lottery team with a weak prospect pool in a little over 2 years? Well I guess at least he acquired a couple 2nd rounders to make up for the ones he traded away. We got a taller too. Kaberle and Bourque haven't played well but they were good in the past so they can only be good in the future (unlike Gomez). Got rid of 3rd liners like SK who only lead a crappy Preds team in scoring that made the 2nd round last season. Nice argument from someone who sounds like they don't have a sweet clue about the problems facing the team. Are you really comparing the Kaberle/Bourque trades to the gomez one? I don't think I even need to approach that lol. In your mind Skost and Akost are legit 1st liners who never got a fair shot blah blah blah. Skost and his 17 goals this year but "last year lead ther predators!!"

I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to believe that during Gainey's 7 year tenure as GM he had significant input from from the Assistant GM he hired, Director of Professional Scouting he hired, and Director of amateur scouting he promoted when making trades, signing players, and drafting.
Just more sad attempts to pin it all on PG. When PG makes a questionable move or a legitimate source comes out saying "PG was in favor of gomez deal" then I will agree but until then you are just like everyone else making up ******** sounding like the whining media you all claim to hate so much.

I like his moves so far, im not like you in the fact I don't just rage hate on everything the man does. I don't think he has made big enough moves or has had the chance to truly put his mark on the team. I like the small moves he has made and understand he was given a raw deal to start with cleaning up gaineys ****.

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03-29-2012, 07:20 AM
  #575
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Couldn't have been too clear seeing as how you were whining about me trying to "act like you were perfectly fine with Gainey before the Gomez trade" Which one was it again?
I said 'don't act' like it took the Gomez trade to not like Gainey (which everyone who remembers you knows isn't your true view). You were raging on Gainey as long as I can remember on HF yet when people compare Gainey to Gauthier you seem to only bring up the Gomez trade as if that's what separates them in your eyes.

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Nice argument from someone who sounds like they don't have a sweet clue about the problems facing the team. Are you really comparing the Kaberle/Bourque trades to the gomez one? I don't think I even need to approach that lol. In your mind Skost and Akost are legit 1st liners who never got a fair shot blah blah blah. Skost and his 17 goals this year but "last year lead ther predators!!"
Again with the Gomez trade...

No, I wasn't comparing the trade but rather the player Gomez. Where did I say trade there. I was alluding to the similarities of Kaberle, Bourque, and Gomez of being veteran players in their 30s that just lose it one season. They all have had good seasons in the past and it's very possible whether you want to admit it or not that they are what we see right now. Sure Bourque and Kaberle can be a 50+pt guys again, but then so can Gomez. With them getting older I don't like the odds or their cap hits/term.

Cool, so you're a mind reader. Let me try:

In your mind giving up SKost, who's putting up around 20 goals and 50 points in back to back seasons on a defensively structured playoff team at the age of 24, in return for nothing is no big loss. However trading Grabovski, who will get around 50 points again on a lottery pick team who played no D until Carlyle at the age of 27 for a 2nd rounder is a bad move.

Was I close?

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Just more sad attempts to pin it all on PG. When PG makes a questionable move or a legitimate source comes out saying "PG was in favor of gomez deal" then I will agree but until then you are just like everyone else making up ******** sounding like the whining media you all claim to hate so much.
AGAIN with the Gomez trade...

Who is saying "PG was in favor of gomez deal"? Where did I say it? I'll repost it:

I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to believe that during Gainey's 7 year tenure as GM he had significant input from from the Assistant GM he hired, Director of Professional Scouting he hired, and Director of amateur scouting he promoted when making trades, signing players, and drafting.

What am I saying here that makes you say, " you are just like everyone else making up ******** sounding like the whining media you all claim to hate so much. "

I wasn't even naming names. Is the concept of a GM, Assistant GM, Director of Pro Scouting, and Director of Amateur Scouting working together to make moves really that far fetched?

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I like his moves so far, im not like you in the fact I don't just rage hate on everything the man does. I don't think he has made big enough moves or has had the chance to truly put his mark on the team. I like the small moves he has made and understand he was given a raw deal to start with cleaning up gaineys ****.
Let me join you in pretending that PG is some outsider who had nothing to do with this team prior to be hired. What is this situation that has him in such a tough place? I mean he came into an organization where he had a couple 60 NHLers (DD and Pac), a couple 50 pt NHLers (SK, AK), a future #1 D (PK) in the minors, #1 offensive DTwo young #1 star Goalies. 27 year old 70pt two way center (Plekanec). Couple of high priced wingers: 30yr old midget who had 28g in 61gms (Gionta) and 27yr old midget who had 26g in 65gms (Cammalleri). Couple of solid D in Gorges and Markov. Let me guess...Gomez trade.

More than half the roster is different than the one we started with in 09/10 and he still hasn't put his mark? I'd argue getting a lottery pick is a mark. We weren't even able to do it when Petrov lead us in points with 47 in 2000/2001.

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