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Old
03-26-2012, 08:55 AM
  #976
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Nieves is my pick for this years draft, big strong kid Bjugstad 2.0 is headed to Michigan next year.

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03-26-2012, 10:36 AM
  #977
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I know this isn't a draft talk thread.. However, Collberg is my favorite draft prospect this year.. He is so good, just what we need

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03-26-2012, 11:36 AM
  #978
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Don't really like Kärpät otherwise, but UrhoTV is showing Game 3 tonight so I guess I'll watch it for Donskoi's sake. He's playing 2nd line LW with Stümpel and Komulainen.

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03-26-2012, 12:16 PM
  #979
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Donskoi's 1st period (tied 1-1):

- Lost the puck on a 1on1 chance
- Secondary assist on the PP goal
- Wide open net but Stümpel didn't see him
- Good drive to the net which led to a scuffle

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03-26-2012, 01:19 PM
  #980
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Missed most of the 2nd (about 13 min) because I went to sauna so can't really say anything about his whole period, but Donskoi had a nice goal at the end. He got the puck on a 2on1, d-man went for the other guy and Donskoi deked the goalie out.

OT: Wish we drafted Salomäki, he looks like a ****ing Selke candidate out there.

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03-26-2012, 01:45 PM
  #981
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soupy do you know anything about this kid:Teuvo Teravainen? He seems to a RW something we need in the draft. He is finnish so i expect the in-house finnish expert might have some insight.

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03-26-2012, 02:17 PM
  #982
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Donskoi's 3rd was a bit meh, nothing that stood out but no mistakes neither. Kärpät leads the series 2-1 now.

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soupy do you know anything about this kid:Teuvo Teravainen? He seems to a RW something we need in the draft. He is finnish so i expect the in-house finnish expert might have some insight.
I don't really follow Jokerit, apart from random games (UrhoTV cycles between all the teams and tries to show everyone equally). I'm not sure about the quality of prospects outside the top10, but I guess someone could take a chance on him with a low 1st because of his upside.

J17 Vs Proclamation commented on him pretty well a few pages ago, and then there's his thread over at the Prospects board.

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03-26-2012, 02:35 PM
  #983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
Keep in mind that draft position is still based on points so us winning the division has very little to do with it. Right now we'd be picking 19th which is right around where Aberg could go. I dont see our draft position changing much unless a team with fewer points than us makes it to the SCF (or we do). There's no way I see us getting Collberg either. If we're picking in the 18-24 area, I'm definitely interested in Aberg, Maata, Koekkoek and Skjei (maybe even throw Sissons in there). I think out of that group we should go with Aberg or Maata (whoever is available).

I agree with you that Teravainen is just not my preference at that draft spot. I know this may sound somewhat weird but I dont trust trying to draft a Finnish skater and them to develop properly, especially a 1st round pick. Outside of Granlund in the last 5 drafts, no elite skater from Finland was drafted in the 1st round (jury is still out on Armia but I dont think he'll be elite). So to me Granlund is an anomaly more than the norm and I feel more comfortable drafting a Swede in the 1st round. It just seems that the SEL better prepares skaters for the rigors of the NHL over SM-Liiga. If we wanna take a risk on a Finnish player in the mid rounds, I'm totally okay with that as that is where there is better value for those type of players.
Completely illogical. Unlike Slovakia or the Czech Republic, Finland is progressing in Junior hockey and is currently producing a higher volume of quality players compared to the past.

Finland stagnated alot in the 2000's with development as emphasis on skill was overtaken by a tactic to let everybody play and be fair. Since modelling the Swedish system the developing has been pretty solid.

SM-Liga is also more physical and is the closest league in Europe to the NA game style wise (they have hybrid rinks too). Finland undoubtedly produces less talent thsn Sweden, but they are on an upswing and unlike the Czech Republic, are seeing most of their talents develop at home.

Granlund is an anamoly, because he's the best prospect they have produced since Selanne. He's a once a generation play + for Finland. Not a good measurement IMO.

I'd much much much rather draft a player with a high pick on a player who intends on staying in Finland than a player who intends on remaining in the Czech Republic, because relative to developmental abilities, currently Finland is unquestionably superior. Junior politics, corruption, playing time, coaching and things such as skating are all significant struggles in Czech Republic currently.

Anyway rant over.

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Old
03-26-2012, 02:41 PM
  #984
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We should probably start a draft thread soon. Our prospect-pool lacks nothing, maybe a PP QB and some goaltending depth. I'd love to get Griffin Reinhart (trade up or if he slides), or take a forward like Gaunce/Collberg/Aberg/Girgensons.

And if we keep our 2nd round pick, I'd love to draft Subban.

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03-26-2012, 03:19 PM
  #985
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Drew Shore signed with us, forgoing his senior year and chance to play with both of his brothers, Nick and Quentin. Good to get him in the fold and will be expecting him to get some game experience with the Rampage.

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03-26-2012, 03:54 PM
  #986
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call him up lol

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Old
03-26-2012, 04:14 PM
  #987
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call him up lol
As long as he doesn't play more than 9 games, and burn a year of his ELC..

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03-26-2012, 04:45 PM
  #988
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As long as he doesn't play more than 9 games, and burn a year of his ELC..
Do the same like the Blues did..They called up Schwartz

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Old
03-26-2012, 10:09 PM
  #989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Completely illogical. Unlike Slovakia or the Czech Republic, Finland is progressing in Junior hockey and is currently producing a higher volume of quality players compared to the past.

Finland stagnated alot in the 2000's with development as emphasis on skill was overtaken by a tactic to let everybody play and be fair. Since modelling the Swedish system the developing has been pretty solid.

SM-Liga is also more physical and is the closest league in Europe to the NA game style wise (they have hybrid rinks too). Finland undoubtedly produces less talent thsn Sweden, but they are on an upswing and unlike the Czech Republic, are seeing most of their talents develop at home.

Granlund is an anamoly, because he's the best prospect they have produced since Selanne. He's a once a generation play + for Finland. Not a good measurement IMO.

I'd much much much rather draft a player with a high pick on a player who intends on staying in Finland than a player who intends on remaining in the Czech Republic, because relative to developmental abilities, currently Finland is unquestionably superior. Junior politics, corruption, playing time, coaching and things such as skating are all significant struggles in Czech Republic currently.

Anyway rant over.
I didnt talk about any Czech Republic players at all. Yes I wouldnt draft anyone from the Czech Republic either (unless they were already in North America). That still doesnt change the fact I still wouldnt draft a player out of Finland over a player out of Sweden right now. Sweden is just better at developing NHL talent right now and I dont care whether Finland is improving or not, they're still not better than Sweden at this point. But some of your reasons behind the struggles of the Czech Republic also plague the KHL as well and they seem to develop NHL talent just fine (corruption is rampant in the KHL).

And honestly I dont really care about whether a player stays in their current league/country or not to develop. I just care whether they develop into NHL talent, no matter how that happens. If that means staying in Europe, thats fine...if it means coming to North America to learn the game over here, thats good too. I've just seen the SEL seem to develop NHL talent better in the last 5 yrs in the 1st round and I'd be more comfortable drafting a guy like Aberg over Terovainen. Not to mention that Aberg has better size, better defensively, and seems to project better as an NHLer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomePanthers View Post
We should probably start a draft thread soon. Our prospect-pool lacks nothing, maybe a PP QB and some goaltending depth. I'd love to get Griffin Reinhart (trade up or if he slides), or take a forward like Gaunce/Collberg/Aberg/Girgensons.

And if we keep our 2nd round pick, I'd love to draft Subban.
Agreed we need a separate thread for the draft, especially since we're basically at the 1000 post limit on this thread (or at least will be soon enough). Can a mod split out these draft related posts into a separate thread?

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Old
03-26-2012, 11:49 PM
  #990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Oh, im not criticising him for his stats in Sweden. Though by all accounts he was pretty poor. Overall Samuelsson isn't a very exciting pick. NHL potential is there, but i don't see much upside to be a Top 6 Forward. I don't think he's entirely comparable to Howden, although i understand what you are trying to say. I didn't really like the Howden pick at the time admittedly. Often these discussions come down to Draft philosophy, but with the current system in place, i think we are in the perfect situation to swing for the fences.
If we was indeed playing poorly in the SEL, then that's still not anything damning. No 17-18 year old is going to perform at a high level in the SEL unless they are top 10 material. Maybe he could have played better, I don't really know anything about his performance there, but even if he played poorly it still doesn't really reflect badly on him. Throw most of these draft eligible kids into the SEL right now and they will perform poorly. In the WHL, he has been good and scoring at a good clip, and has shown attributes that project well for being an NHL regular.

I know you and I have different definitions sometimes of what 'exciting' is. To me, a big, mobile, two-way physical power forward with good hands and projectable as a 2nd liner is very exciting. I don't know why you say there isn't much upside to be a top 6 forward.

Quote:
Teravainen might be a better prospect than Grimaldi. His upside is there, his development curve is excellent and overall, there just aren't many Forwards in this draft with his upside. Size isn't really a concern here. It's what be brings with his size. He has high end ability to counter that size (and his size isn't really a massive issue like it is with Grimaldi). He'll have to bulk up definitely, but thats hardly a criticism in my eyes given he's one of the youngest players available in the draft.

The upside is IMO much more significant with him than Samuelsson, Wilson, Maidens type around that slot.
Well, idk. based on what? I'm not taking anything away from Teravainen, but Grimaldi was a standout for the USNTDP last season and has performed well internationally. I think they compare pretty favorably.

You're right, there are other things along with Teravainen's size. He's a Euro and I admittedly don't know that much about him, but from what I do know his style of play is far from that which is played in N.A. He is not tiny like Grimaldi no, but he is still undersized. He is around 5'10", 180-185 lbs. While his weight is not a big deal at first glance, take a look at jeff Skinner who came into his draft at around 5'10" 190 lbs. Skinner really hasn't gained any weight since he was drafted. Maybe a couple lbs. Short guys don't really add a lot of muscle if that muscle is going to slow them down and alter their style of play. Like Skinner, Teravainen's game seems to revolve around quickness and agility and dangling. So I don't anticipate him adding a ton more muscle.


Quote:
"If a guy like Grimaldi can fall to the 2nd round in a stronger draft, then I don't see why Teravainen is too good to pass up" ; Is this a typing mistake? The logic would surely be in reverse?
No, because there is still a hole somewhere if even in a stronger draft Grimaldi can fall to #33 and you think Teravainen is almost too good to pass up in the middle of the first round. Admittedly it's a weaker draft, but that much weaker? That doesn't really compute to me.

Quote:
Taking a risk on a player isn't taking your foot off the pedal. Building an indestructible prospect pool is also not feasible. Disappointments will happen, whether it's with the risks or the percieved safe picks. I have no problem with who the scouts take (Excluding my preferences) assuming they are drafting BPA. They may value specific characteristics higher than others, but as long as they aren't trying to fill needs (Which is beyond stupid) i am fine with their choices for now. For measuring the current scouting staffs success, i tend to look at 2010 onwards. 2001-2009 is largely s disaster, but i will measure success within Tallon's sphere and it will take 3-4 years to know where we stand with his decisions at the draft table.
Detroit's is pretty close. They have far from the best prospect pool, but they have built a 100% reliable feeder system that has continually cranked out regulars for two decades now. And this is on the Red Wings, a perennial powerhouse, not a run of the mill team. IMO there are times to take risks on players, I don't think this is one of those times with our 1st round pick this year where in the same range there will be still be lots of quality safe picks available. As I said even if it's a D, why not, we have far from a masterful collection of defense prospects and we might lose Garrison this summer. We used a early 2nd last year on a risky pick, a very similar player to Teravainen in Grimaldi.

Disappointments will happen with all types of prospects, but safer picks have an inherently less chance of disappointing. I don't expect all safe picks to work out, but it's just a matter of playing the odds.

Quote:
Aberg has been injured and struggled since. I can see him falling into the 20's for sure. Beautiful skater and good shot. Would be an interesting selection.
But who's going to replace him. I can't see why he would slip into the 20's? Galchenyuk has been injured for most of the season but he's still #2-5 in most rankings. Koekkoek suffered a major shoulder injury yet his rankings haven't been affected much by this. Same with Rielly. Maybe he slips to #20-21 but not really any farther than that.

Quote:
Definitely some disappointments. Maatta hasn't really been a disappointment (He'll be a solid Top 4 D in the NHL i think). Reinhart had a slow start, but has been pretty good in the latter half and again projects to be an interesting player at the NHL level. Agree with the other names citied.

This draft for Goalies is very good. Vasilevski or Dansk would be great 2nd round selections.

I meant Maatta has been a disappointment in the sense that before the seasons started, some Euro posters were saying Maatta had a good chance to be in the top 10, even in some cases a lock. And there were some early season rankings that had him quite high. It's not like he's been a massive disappointment or anything but you got the sense a few months ago he could challenge Rielly, Trouba, Reinhart, Koekkoek, etc.

I haven't seen reinhart play since the Top Prospects game, so I'll take your word for it. I'm still not sure he's back in the mix with Murray an Dumba though, which is where he was at the end of last season.

I'm not sure if I want us to take a goalie in the 2nd. In the mid rounds for me. Next year is going to be an even better year for goalies and we could get a steal in the 3rd, or 2nd if we give Philly the pick this year, or take an elite prospect in the 1st.

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Old
03-27-2012, 12:20 AM
  #991
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Keep in mind that draft position is still based on points so us winning the division has very little to do with it.
That's incorrect. The conference finalists pick #27-30 based on finish and the 27-28 teams are ranked based on points in the regular season. Then next come the division leaders. If a non-division winning team makes the conference finals, then the #25-26 teams get bumped up depending on how many of those teams make the conference finals. The rest of the draft order is determined by points. Except of course for the top 14 which have the draft lottery.

Quote:
If we're picking in the 18-24 area, I'm definitely interested in Aberg, Maata, Koekkoek and Skjei (maybe even throw Sissons in there). I think out of that group we should go with Aberg or Maata (whoever is available).
Maatta would be a fine pick. If we are picking around #25 though it's hard to see him being there. Same with Koekkoek, I think he'll go top 20, if not for his injury I think he'd be right up there with Reinhart, Rielly, and Ceci. He was in that convo last season. I like Sissons as a player but he for me is just too similar to what we already have in our system. He'd be a fine pick in the late 1st for another team, just not us IMO. If we are picking around #16-17, then yeah for forwards Aberg is definitely the target, along with Girgensons. If we have the chance to get Koekkoek though I'd take him.

Quote:
I agree with you that Teravainen is just not my preference at that draft spot. I know this may sound somewhat weird but I dont trust trying to draft a Finnish skater and them to develop properly, especially a 1st round pick. Outside of Granlund in the last 5 drafts, no elite skater from Finland was drafted in the 1st round (jury is still out on Armia but I dont think he'll be elite). So to me Granlund is an anomaly more than the norm and I feel more comfortable drafting a Swede in the 1st round. It just seems that the SEL better prepares skaters for the rigors of the NHL over SM-Liiga. If we wanna take a risk on a Finnish player in the mid rounds, I'm totally okay with that as that is where there is better value for those type of players.
I didn't really think about it like that, and to me I think that's being a little unfair to Teravainen because that's basically the same bias against Hertl, but for me it's more the combo of his being undersized and playing a very patent Euro style. It doesn't make for good odds of NHL success.

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Old
03-27-2012, 12:36 AM
  #992
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Originally Posted by panthersflames1 View Post
soupy do you know anything about this kid:Teuvo Teravainen? He seems to a RW something we need in the draft. He is finnish so i expect the in-house finnish expert might have some insight.
I keep seeing him listed as a LW. I'm not sure if that's accurate or not, or if he can play RW well too.

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03-27-2012, 12:42 AM
  #993
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Wrt the NCAA tourney, Minny beat NoDak 5-2 Sunday to advance to the Frozen Four. Minnesota-Duluth lost to BC, so Basaraba's out as well as Knight. Union and Ferris St. are the other two teams in the Frozen Four.

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03-27-2012, 05:03 AM
  #994
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If we was indeed playing poorly in the SEL, then that's still not anything damning. No 17-18 year old is going to perform at a high level in the SEL unless they are top 10 material. Maybe he could have played better, I don't really know anything about his performance there, but even if he played poorly it still doesn't really reflect badly on him. Throw most of these draft eligible kids into the SEL right now and they will perform poorly. In the WHL, he has been good and scoring at a good clip, and has shown attributes that project well for being an NHL regular.
Well, i just don't see much scoring upside. Like 30-40 points for sure, but not much more. I guess i just want a different type of prospect and feel we can afford to take such a prospect.




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Well, idk. based on what? I'm not taking anything away from Teravainen, but Grimaldi was a standout for the USNTDP last season and has performed well internationally. I think they compare pretty favorably.
I think he's absolutely atleast as good as Grimaldi, and i'd prefer him based on size alone (Teravainen isn't a midget). He's atleast in the same category however.

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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
You're right, there are other things along with Teravainen's size. He's a Euro and I admittedly don't know that much about him, but from what I do know his style of play is far from that which is played in N.A. He is not tiny like Grimaldi no, but he is still undersized. He is around 5'10", 180-185 lbs. While his weight is not a big deal at first glance, take a look at jeff Skinner who came into his draft at around 5'10" 190 lbs. Skinner really hasn't gained any weight since he was drafted. Maybe a couple lbs. Short guys don't really add a lot of muscle if that muscle is going to slow them down and alter their style of play. Like Skinner, Teravainen's game seems to revolve around quickness and agility and dangling. So I don't anticipate him adding a ton more muscle.
Obviously Teravainen isn't going to be a gritty physical powerhouse in the NHL. His game is based on puck skills and being elusive. I don't expect Teravainen to bulk up massively, but he will need to add strength to his core to be able to be effective at the NHL.




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No, because there is still a hole somewhere if even in a stronger draft Grimaldi can fall to #33 and you think Teravainen is almost too good to pass up in the middle of the first round. Admittedly it's a weaker draft, but that much weaker? That doesn't really compute to me.
Still somewhat confused.

The initial statement : "If a guy like Grimaldi can fall to the 2nd round in a stronger draft, then I don't see why Teravainen is too good to pass up".

It just doesn't make any logical sense to me. If someone falls in a stronger draft, why should we select a "similar" player around that spot in a weaker draft? I honestly don't understand the point.



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Detroit's is pretty close. They have far from the best prospect pool, but they have built a 100% reliable feeder system that has continually cranked out regulars for two decades now. And this is on the Red Wings, a perennial powerhouse, not a run of the mill team. IMO there are times to take risks on players, I don't think this is one of those times with our 1st round pick this year where in the same range there will be still be lots of quality safe picks available. As I said even if it's a D, why not, we have far from a masterful collection of defense prospects and we might lose Garrison this summer. We used a early 2nd last year on a risky pick, a very similar player to Teravainen in Grimaldi.
Detroit is the exceptional, not the rule. Their scouting staff is proven, their development system is proven, they have excellent coaches and overall, know what it takes to win. They aren't indestructable, but yes, they have an excellent system in place. We will realistically never come close to such a prolonged era of success.

Quality safe picks? Perhaps D wise, but if you're going Forward, there are very very very few obviously quality picks at that spot. Teravainen might actually go higher than we can take him anyway, but the premise that "We took Grimaldi last year so we can't take Teravainen" isn't a plausible or well reasoned idea. Don't base a draft decision on a 2nd round pick the previous year. You seem to think Teravainen is this monster gamble. Does he have bust potential? Yes. He however isn't a Kabanov type pick. There are as many legitimate concerns surrounding the players ranked similarly to Teravainen as there are with Teravainen.

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Disappointments will happen with all types of prospects, but safer picks have an inherently less chance of disappointing. I don't expect all safe picks to work out, but it's just a matter of playing the odds.
You're going to have a difficult time defining a safe pick. Recent examples of can't miss "safe picks" include Colton Gillies and Kyle Chipchura.

This is the NHL draft. You don't play the statistical odds. You don't draft based on the concept that you must get a return from the pick at all costs (Therefore going as safe as possible). That isn't a way to draft. If they draft Samuelsson because they believe he has workable upside, that is fine. If they draft Samuelsson because he is safe ; well, that leaves alot to be desired in my mind.



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But who's going to replace him. I can't see why he would slip into the 20's? Galchenyuk has been injured for most of the season but he's still #2-5 in most rankings. Koekkoek suffered a major shoulder injury yet his rankings haven't been affected much by this. Same with Rielly. Maybe he slips to #20-21 but not really any farther than that.
Aberg was rated around the 15-20 mark pre Injury. It's perfectly reasonable to think it's possible that he falls in the 20's.




I
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
meant Maatta has been a disappointment in the sense that before the seasons started, some Euro posters were saying Maatta had a good chance to be in the top 10, even in some cases a lock. And there were some early season rankings that had him quite high. It's not like he's been a massive disappointment or anything but you got the sense a few months ago he could challenge Rielly, Trouba, Reinhart, Koekkoek, etc.
Very few European posters really believed that. None of the Finnish posters i respect on this board asserted such a thing. Maatta was always considered a safe reliable D. I don't think i've ever read anything in relation to him being dynamic.

Realistic expectations were for him to go 10-20. I still think that's possible.

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I haven't seen reinhart play since the Top Prospects game, so I'll take your word for it. I'm still not sure he's back in the mix with Murray an Dumba though, which is where he was at the end of last season.
I think he's a possible Top 10 pick, but i imagine the NHL teams will have the D available ranked wildly different to each other.

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I'm not sure if I want us to take a goalie in the 2nd. In the mid rounds for me. Next year is going to be an even better year for goalies and we could get a steal in the 3rd, or 2nd if we give Philly the pick this year, or take an elite prospect in the 1st.
This year is strong for Goalies. Good European crop. Realistically i don't mind if we do or don't.

However, i hear every year about Goalies a year before their draft. So many fizzle out. So any assessments on 2013 in regards to Goalies should wait, because the landscape will change alot in the coming year.

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Old
03-27-2012, 05:15 AM
  #995
J17 Vs Proclamation
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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
I didnt talk about any Czech Republic players at all. Yes I wouldnt draft anyone from the Czech Republic either (unless they were already in North America). That still doesnt change the fact I still wouldnt draft a player out of Finland over a player out of Sweden right now. Sweden is just better at developing NHL talent right now and I dont care whether Finland is improving or not, they're still not better than Sweden at this point. But some of your reasons behind the struggles of the Czech Republic also plague the KHL as well and they seem to develop NHL talent just fine (corruption is rampant in the KHL).

Finland will always be behind Sweden. Sweden is also currently the juggernaut of Europe. It's development is exceptional. We shouldn't judge Finland on what Sweden does. People need to remember Sweden five or six years ago had very poor Junior development. They had many years of poor age groups and wern't much better than the Finns of 4-5 years ago. Finland is taking a similar path, but clearly off a smaller scale. Their Junior production line is vastly superior to what it was 4-5 years ago. They've gone from not having a 1st round pick who was a skater in 6 years to where they are now ; producing several viable 1st round picks each year.

Not selecting a player from Finland based on whatever lose logic you are using is asinine. Their system is fine and they can and will produce good players. Historically Finnish players don't go the CHL and develop at home. There is absolutely no fear factor in drafting a player from Finland and letting him develop there. 3 2013 prospects in Barkov, Ikonen and Lehkonen have already made their SM-Liga debuts. It's become a friendlier environment for young players.

The Czech Republic has many many issues (Of which they are attempting to overcome, but the results won't be known for a good few years). The KHL does have corruption and nepotism is definitely an issue amongst international Junior teams for Russia. However, Russia and the Czech Republic are not really comparable in their current Junior situations. Russia is likely to only get better from here on in.

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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
And honestly I dont really care about whether a player stays in their current league/country or not to develop. I just care whether they develop into NHL talent, no matter how that happens. If that means staying in Europe, thats fine...if it means coming to North America to learn the game over here, thats good too. I've just seen the SEL seem to develop NHL talent better in the last 5 yrs in the 1st round and I'd be more comfortable drafting a guy like Aberg over Terovainen. Not to mention that Aberg has better size, better defensively, and seems to project better as an NHLer.Agreed we need a separate thread for the draft, especially since we're basically at the 1000 post limit on this thread (or at least will be soon enough). Can a mod split out these draft related posts into a separate thread?
A league cannot develop talent if that said talent does not exist. Finland has only recently had the talent to actually develop it. So again, the above is very faulty logic. Young players in Finland are getting chances. Salomaki, Granlund Brothers, Donskoi, Pulkkinen, Vatanen, Ruutu, Barkov, Ikonen, Teravainen are examples of young players getting chances with their respective teams.

I think you are somewhat misinformed about the topic.

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03-27-2012, 11:08 AM
  #996
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Maatta would be a fine pick. If we are picking around #25 though it's hard to see him being there.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. There has been talk (among the scouts) that he isn't promising enough offensively to warrant being picked early. Also, he missed some time with a concussion so that could drop him even further down the list.

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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
I keep seeing him listed as a LW. I'm not sure if that's accurate or not, or if he can play RW well too.
He is actually a C, but can play W also (kids often start as a W with men, Mi. Granlund played his first full season as a W before moving back to C). As per his prospects thread.

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03-29-2012, 07:54 AM
  #997
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Well, i just don't see much scoring upside. Like 30-40 points for sure, but not much more. I guess i just want a different type of prospect and feel we can afford to take such a prospect.
I strongly disagree. Idk what gives you that impression.

Quote:
Obviously Teravainen isn't going to be a gritty physical powerhouse in the NHL. His game is based on puck skills and being elusive. I don't expect Teravainen to bulk up massively, but he will need to add strength to his core to be able to be effective at the NHL.
Yes, and that + the fact that his biggest criticism is that he shies away from the hard areas of the ice indicates that he is a risky pick to me. If he was 6'2" then it would be different, but you can't pretend that size isn't a factor because it is. Small players fall all the time in the draft due to their size.


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Still somewhat confused.

The initial statement : "If a guy like Grimaldi can fall to the 2nd round in a stronger draft, then I don't see why Teravainen is too good to pass up".

It just doesn't make any logical sense to me. If someone falls in a stronger draft, why should we select a "similar" player around that spot in a weaker draft? I honestly don't understand the point.
Alright maybe I didn't word it the best, but basically, is Teravainen so good that despite the difference in draft strengths, he's a pick that should be 15+ spots higher than Grimaldi? You originally said we should strongly consider Teravainen even if we draft in the mid-teens.

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Detroit is the exceptional, not the rule. Their scouting staff is proven, their development system is proven, they have excellent coaches and overall, know what it takes to win. They aren't indestructable, but yes, they have an excellent system in place. We will realistically never come close to such a prolonged era of success.
I can't accept this. If you're not going to shoot for the stars, then you should just stay home. We could someday build a prospect base and developmental system like Detroit's. There's no reason why we 100% can't.

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Quality safe picks? Perhaps D wise, but if you're going Forward, there are very very very few obviously quality picks at that spot. Teravainen might actually go higher than we can take him anyway, but the premise that "We took Grimaldi last year so we can't take Teravainen" isn't a plausible or well reasoned idea. Don't base a draft decision on a 2nd round pick the previous year. You seem to think Teravainen is this monster gamble. Does he have bust potential? Yes. He however isn't a Kabanov type pick. There are as many legitimate concerns surrounding the players ranked similarly to Teravainen as there are with Teravainen.
There are definitely quality safe picks at that spot. I already listed some guys. Samuelsson definitely is. DiGiuseppe has decent size, is gritty, and has scored great numbers in college. Hertl has a risk factor of his own playing in Czech, but I feel he's less of a risk than Teravainen. Sissons definitely is a safe pick, although I don't prefer him only because he's just like Howden though without the speed and less scoring upside. You can't say there aren't safe quality forward picks in that rangejust because you prefer a different style of player. So Teravainen would be the only quality forward pick in that range? Please. You're being a little biased here. I'm not sure what very very very few quality forward picks at that spot means. There are more than that. Teravainen might go higher, he could go in the top 10 or he could go in the 20's. He's a big wildcard.

I don't find anything wrong with basing a draft decision around the fact that we took a risky prospect with a high pick last year. If you take small boom or bust players with high picks for 5 years in a row, you're really not employing a wise draft strategy. That's basically what you are suggesting we theoretically should do if we feel those guys are the BPA for 5 years in a row. You can't do that. Of course we should take into consideration that we burned a high pick on Grimaldi last year. I actually don't think Teravainen is a monster gamble. There are just going to be safer picks available. There aren't as many legitimate concerns with some of the guys I listed as there are with Teravainen.


Quote:
You're going to have a difficult time defining a safe pick. Recent examples of can't miss "safe picks" include Colton Gillies and Kyle Chipchura.

This is the NHL draft. You don't play the statistical odds. You don't draft based on the concept that you must get a return from the pick at all costs (Therefore going as safe as possible). That isn't a way to draft. If they draft Samuelsson because they believe he has workable upside, that is fine. If they draft Samuelsson because he is safe ; well, that leaves alot to be desired in my mind.
Are we really going to do this? You know what a safe pick is. Of course some of them bust, #1 overall picks have busted before. But there are less busts with safe picks, that's why they call them safe. Of course you play odds in the NHL draft. If you didn't, then GMs would take tons of 150 lb. speedsters from Europe or the USHL every year in the 1st round because they have "higher upsides". These days, the draft is more important than ever to building a good NHL team. You HAVE to get NHL players in the 1st round, if you don't your odds of building a good team over a long period of time dramatically decrease. With a salary cap, free agent prices escalating every year, and more core players being locked up resulting in less quality free agents in recent years, the draft is as important now as it ever was. However, of course there is a limit to how "safe" a team will go. NHL teams don't just want to draft future grinders every year in the 1st round. I assure you the Panthers won't draft anyone because "he's a sure bet to be a 4th liner". whoever they draft will be seen as having a good upside.


Quote:
Aberg was rated around the 15-20 mark pre Injury. It's perfectly reasonable to think it's possible that he falls in the 20's.
I guess it's possible, but I see it as extremely unlikely. The premise would be based on other guys shooting up to replace him. I don't see him falling that far down for that reason. He's still a very quality prospect with good scoring upside in a draft with a dearth of forwards. Injuries heal. He didn't suffer a broken leg or back or anything like that.

Quote:
Very few European posters really believed that. None of the Finnish posters i respect on this board asserted such a thing. Maatta was always considered a safe reliable D. I don't think i've ever read anything in relation to him being dynamic.

Realistic expectations were for him to go 10-20. I still think that's possible.
Idk, some quality finnish posters were saying it. He was also ranked fairly highly in the summer. His being dynamic had nothing to do with it, it was because he was already playing well amongst grown men and was displaying great poise in his own end.

Quote:
This year is strong for Goalies. Good European crop. Realistically i don't mind if we do or don't.

However, i hear every year about Goalies a year before their draft. So many fizzle out. So any assessments on 2013 in regards to Goalies should wait, because the landscape will change alot in the coming year.
Scoutman1 has been saying for awhile that 2013 is going to be a phenomenal goalie class, with a couple from the Q that should be among the first few to go, especially Fucale. He's very knowledgable about junior players, especially from the Q. He could end up being wrong, but even if he is I don't think he's going to be that far off, and I generally trust his opinions. He was talking about Nathan MacKinnon and Connor McDavid years before anyone else on this board was. He knows his stuff, and if he was tha impressed with this goalie crop years ahead of time, there must be something to it.

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Old
03-29-2012, 02:58 PM
  #998
J17 Vs Proclamation
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
I strongly disagree. Idk what gives you that impression.
I just don't see high upside.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Yes, and that + the fact that his biggest criticism is that he shies away from the hard areas of the ice indicates that he is a risky pick to me. If he was 6'2" then it would be different, but you can't pretend that size isn't a factor because it is. Small players fall all the time in the draft due to their size.
I haven't heard many criticims regarding Teravainen avoiding the dirty areas. Is it his primary game? No, but why would it be? He's perfectly able to enter the difficult zones and fight, but obviously his relative weakness right now doesn't help. His desire to fight is hardly a concern.

Small players do fall. Work ethic questions makes prospects fall. Skating makes prospects fall. Questionable upside makes players fall. Teravaine isn't tiny. He isn't Grimaldi. He's realistically not much smaller than Yakupov. His height isn't a massive concern. I'll start being really concerned with size if they are tiny or its questionable if they have the required skills to overcome their "size". Teravainen is an extremely skilled player, one of the best in this draft.

To be honest your argument sounds more like an attempt to assert a stylistic preference rather than any insightful reasoning into why Teravainen himself shouldn't be picked in the late 1st. That's fine. Personally, i'd take Teravainen over players like Samuelsson about as frequently as Danny Devito has sold out.




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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Alright maybe I didn't word it the best, but basically, is Teravainen so good that despite the difference in draft strengths, he's a pick that should be 15+ spots higher than Grimaldi? You originally said we should strongly consider Teravainen even if we draft in the mid-teens.
I would seriously consider taking Teravainen in the high teens.

So you're saying that because Grimaldi (a supposedly similar player) went early 2nd, that if we aren't willing to take Teravainen at 15 range, we shouldn't take him late 1st because the weakness of the draft (I.e it supposedly adds 10-15 picks of value to a player)? I find this utterly bizarre.

It's perfectly possible Teravainen does go in the mid teens anyway. Although he likely won't be playing at the U-18's because Jokerit require his services for the playoffs. In a draft lacking Forward depth, he is potentially the biggest late riser in the draft.



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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
I can't accept this. If you're not going to shoot for the stars, then you should just stay home. We could someday build a prospect base and developmental system like Detroit's. There's no reason why we 100% can't.
Sure. Believe if you want. I am simply stipulating that it is highly unlikely we come close to matching their development infrastructure. They've made the playoffs 20+ times in a row, have continually produced players of star calibre to replace those before them, and are reknown for having both excellent scouts and world class communication (and patience) between management and prospects.

Meanwhile, until hopefully this year, we haven't made the playoffs in 12 years, have had debacle after debacle in drafts, have had a merry go round of management and have clearly lacked any clear communications between players and management. I am thoroughly onboard with Tallon and have very hopeful expectations for the future. However i don't usually indulge in unrealistic expectations.

Use technicalities all you wish. Of course anything is possible. It's not however a concept that is particularly valid or realistic when applied to an actual situation.



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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
There are definitely quality safe picks at that spot. I already listed some guys. Samuelsson definitely is. DiGiuseppe has decent size, is gritty, and has scored great numbers in college. Hertl has a risk factor of his own playing in Czech, but I feel he's less of a risk than Teravainen. Sissons definitely is a safe pick, although I don't prefer him only because he's just like Howden though without the speed and less scoring upside. You can't say there aren't safe quality forward picks in that rangejust because you prefer a different style of player. So Teravainen would be the only quality forward pick in that range? Please. You're being a little biased here. I'm not sure what very very very few quality forward picks at that spot means. There are more than that. Teravainen might go higher, he could go in the top 10 or he could go in the 20's. He's a big wildcard.
Sissons or Wilson are players i wish to avoid. They are projectable in a sense that you can envisage them in the NHL, yet that role isn't likely to anything of such significant.

The quality of Forwards available is pretty ordinary. The CHL Forward crop is dire. Of course there will be players from the CHL who get picked late 1st onwards who go onto be productive scorers at the NHL level, but predicting who that is not within my means or ability. It's the worst North American Forward crop since 2004. I should state i am not entirely up to speed on most of the Americans outside of the CHL, so i cannot offer much insight there.

Interesting 2nd round picks would be Sutter or Bozon from the WHL. Both bring very different things to the table, but both very projectable.

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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
I don't find anything wrong with basing a draft decision around the fact that we took a risky prospect with a high pick last year. If you take small boom or bust players with high picks for 5 years in a row, you're really not employing a wise draft strategy. That's basically what you are suggesting we theoretically should do if we feel those guys are the BPA for 5 years in a row. You can't do that. Of course we should take into consideration that we burned a high pick on Grimaldi last year. I actually don't think Teravainen is a monster gamble. There are just going to be safer picks available. There aren't as many legitimate concerns with some of the guys I listed as there are with Teravainen.
You have a prospect system so enriched with talent, yet we base a decision on a midget prospect drafted only a year ago? Doesn't seem an entirely logical approach.

I am not discussing what we do in 5 years. I am discussing the situation now. If in 5 years there is a prospect who i feel is BPA, but happens to be 5 ft 11, then yes i'd be an advocate for drafting him, but what happens in 4-5 years time in the draft is meaningless currently.

If the scouts don't see the upside in Teravainen, prefer another player or think he's very boom or bust, i can't do much about it, but i'd understand their reasoning. However basing a decision on one asset is ludicrious. If you really wish to draft for need, then atleast assess the entire picture rather than your line of thought which seems to be "But we took a gamble with Grimaldi, so we can't think outside the box this year!". It's not very innovative or clever really.






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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Are we really going to do this? You know what a safe pick is. Of course some of them bust, #1 overall picks have busted before. But there are less busts with safe picks, that's why they call them safe. Of course you play odds in the NHL draft. If you didn't, then GMs would take tons of 150 lb. speedsters from Europe or the USHL every year in the 1st round because they have "higher upsides". These days, the draft is more important than ever to building a good NHL team. You HAVE to get NHL players in the 1st round, if you don't your odds of building a good team over a long period of time dramatically decrease. With a salary cap, free agent prices escalating every year, and more core players being locked up resulting in less quality free agents in recent years, the draft is as important now as it ever was. However, of course there is a limit to how "safe" a team will go. NHL teams don't just want to draft future grinders every year in the 1st round. I assure you the Panthers won't draft anyone because "he's a sure bet to be a 4th liner". whoever they draft will be seen as having a good upside.
Much of the above isn't directly related to our discussion, but i agree with some parts and disagree with others.

The bolded part however i do not entirely agree with. Drafting is vital if a team wants a successful narrative, however the idea that a team MUST get a player out of the 1st round is a little hyperbolic. All teams will have misses in the 1st round on usually a semi basis. Do you think Skille, White, Kindl, Esposito, Hamill or the numerous other examples of players drafted in the 1st round meant those teams were unsuccessful? I'd hardly suggest Vancouver, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Boston or Chicago are unsuccessful. Nearly all these teams are led by 1st round picks who developed into impact (Note, not safe or marginal) players. The depth players like Jack Skille or Jakub Kindl added to their respective team had virtually no impact on their success. So stop with such nonsense. If our 1st round pick of 2012 completely busts, or turns out to be a marginal player in the NHL, it isn't the end of the world and it certainly doesn't prevent future success.




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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
I guess it's possible, but I see it as extremely unlikely. The premise would be based on other guys shooting up to replace him. I don't see him falling that far down for that reason. He's still a very quality prospect with good scoring upside in a draft with a dearth of forwards. Injuries heal. He didn't suffer a broken leg or back or anything like that.
Of course he is, but considering he's been project to go in the 15-20 spot by many different agencies, it's not unrealistic at all for him to go 20-25. The difference between going #16 and going #24 can often depend on the decision one team makes at the draft table.




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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Scoutman1 has been saying for awhile that 2013 is going to be a phenomenal goalie class, with a couple from the Q that should be among the first few to go, especially Fucale. He's very knowledgable about junior players, especially from the Q. He could end up being wrong, but even if he is I don't think he's going to be that far off, and I generally trust his opinions. He was talking about Nathan MacKinnon and Connor McDavid years before anyone else on this board was. He knows his stuff, and if he was tha impressed with this goalie crop years ahead of time, there must be something to it.
Scoutman also gave ring endorsements to Ben Duffy and Steven Anthony. He's a scout who is paid to watch young talents for his Q team. He certainly has a vast amount of interesting information and opinions, but much of it is difficult to realistically project to the NHL given the age groups he is discussing. Whilst many of his lists are informative and likely somewhat realistic for the given time (He states himself he has had limited viewings on many of the Europeans), things will change alot.

Goalie crops as an assessment is something i wouldn't even bother considering until the draft year from our perspective (or indeed NHL scouting). Hyped Goalies will change so much and so many recently hyped Q goalies (Poulin, Dominque) have had poor draft years and gone late in the draft.

Of course discussion of 2013 goalies (The landscape will be very different in a year) shouldn't pertain to any 2012 discussions. No consideration for the 2013 Goalie crop should be given when we assess whether to take a 2012 Goalie. Absolutely none. If you really like a Goalie, take him, but factoring in a pool of Goalies that A) NHL scouts would have seen very very little off to make an "informed" decision B) Are potentially a million years away from the NHL and C) has no relevance to the 2012 prospect, is simply something that is not going to happen.

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03-30-2012, 04:41 AM
  #999
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We need a dedicated MR vs J17 2012 Draft thread where they can post there stupidly long and ultimately pointless rebuttles in private and not interrupt the thread which is supposed to be about our own prospects.

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03-30-2012, 10:48 AM
  #1000
J17 Vs Proclamation
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Originally Posted by jakethesnake23 View Post
We need a dedicated MR vs J17 2012 Draft thread where they can post there stupidly long and ultimately pointless rebuttles in private and not interrupt the thread which is supposed to be about our own prospects.
Let me know when you ever post something of consequence on anything.

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