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Old
02-03-2012, 08:37 PM
  #26
newfr4u
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ponder,

cool. i had to look up what the hell i told you. lol.

you didn't take all of my advice, but at least you stopped doing 10 rep sets. i also realized i never answered your rest days question. personally, i take a rest day after every heavy squat or deadlift day. that means no hockey too. the deadlifts especially kill you the next day once you get around 2x bodyweight. do you mind sharing your current program, and weight you are pushing?

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02-04-2012, 03:25 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
never ever bounce off the box. that's a good way to get hurt and probably the number one danger of doing a box squat



perfect. but you shouldn't rely on the box squat to teach you depth.



:thumb: try to eat a LOT. not kidding. late 20's is nowhere near too late.



uhhhh... that's entirely upto him whether he keeps up his form, progression, and calories.



lots of myths in this post.

- he is doing squats with 140lbs. that's nothing. anyone can do that 3-4 times a week easy, even while playing hockey. call me when the squats get heavy, i.e. 2x bodyweight.
- overtraining is a term that gets thrown around a lot. needing an extra rest day every once in a while is not overtraining.
- +15lb/week is superstandard for beginners upto 1.5-2x bodyweight, provided he eats enough calories above his maintenance.
- below parallel is not dangerous, and not the cause of knee pain. look at front squats, the patela goes well beyond 90 degrees of flexion. according to Rippetoe, the reason to only do parallel with back squats is because ass-to-grass squats don't give you much more stimulus than just below parallel.
- re: sets of 15, that's endurance training, not strength. it has it's place, but he should focus on raw strength first.



:thumb:

look into some SMR and/or sport massage to handle some of the lifting pains.
I disagree. Weight used is relative and means nothing in and of itself. I don't know if 140lbs is easy for him or not.

I know what over training is.

Below parallel and beyond 90degree of flexion does put added stress on the patella tendon.

15 reps has it's place just as 5 reps does. Just making the point that if you train 5 reps below parallel heavy you are asking for trouble as you get older.

I don't mind you disagreeing, but please don't talk to me like I'm an idiot. I've been in gyms for over 20 yrs., was an internship away from a B.S. in exercise physiology before changing majors, and have spent more hours picking my orthopedic surgeon's brain (knee specialist) than I care to admit.

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02-04-2012, 03:51 PM
  #28
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I'll bow out of this thread.

There's always an expert that knows what's best for everyone and this thread already has one.

The fact is that people of different ages, occupations, body types, past injuries, limitations based on body structure, etc. will surely have different range of motion capabilities, will find certain exercises more suited to their bodies, have different tolerances for over training, etc.

A true mesomorph at 22 yrs. old and injury free can basically do whatever he wants in a gym, not overtrain and make great improvements.

An ectomorph/hard gainer with pre existing injuries in his mid thirties or forties. Much different tolerance to exercise.

Precisely why the "know it all" my way or your wrong on an internet forum fails miserably.

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02-05-2012, 11:36 PM
  #29
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I just want to add this. Theres nothing wrong with squatting 3+ times a week. That is of course if you are eating enough to support muscle growth. If you're currently squatting once a week (or worse: not at all), give yourself a few weeks to work into the work load. Once you're into it, you'll find that your muscles recover much quicker than before and you'll rarely get sore. Usually the only way my body gets sore now is if I try something new such as 20 rep sets, timed sets with 135 (try 3-4 minutes, brutal) or single leg exercises. Mixing your routine up every so often is a good thing, just make sure not to do it right before a big game.

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02-06-2012, 01:54 AM
  #30
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My one advice for everyone in this thread is this. There are no set guidelines to a strength and conditioning program. Each athlete much be trained individually with constant tweaks to a program. There is no such thing as optimal training. Programs are not cookie cutter and the individualization of the athlete must be at the heart of every program.

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02-06-2012, 11:06 AM
  #31
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Once I get up to reasonable strength levels (i.e. squatting mid 200's, benching mid 100's, etc) I'll likely do heavy and light days, mix up the routine, etc.

But Rippetoe and all the other experts pretty much say for a beginner you can do the same routine and add weight relatively quickly. Eventually progress slows and that's when you need to mix it up. If something works, keep doing it until it's not working anymore.


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02-06-2012, 12:29 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
I disagree. Weight used is relative and means nothing in and of itself. I don't know if 140lbs is easy for him or not.

I know what over training is.

Below parallel and beyond 90degree of flexion does put added stress on the patella tendon.

15 reps has it's place just as 5 reps does. Just making the point that if you train 5 reps below parallel heavy you are asking for trouble as you get older.

I don't mind you disagreeing, but please don't talk to me like I'm an idiot. I've been in gyms for over 20 yrs., was an internship away from a B.S. in exercise physiology before changing majors, and have spent more hours picking my orthopedic surgeon's brain (knee specialist) than I care to admit.
sorry that you feel like an idiot. but heavy sets of 5 is fine. below parallel is fine. the knee is designed to bend that way, and strengthening those joints is why we do squats to begin with. what the knee is not designed to do is collapse inwards or take the entire load. these problems are addressed by "shoving knees out" and "don't let the knee track forward" cues.

i am surprised (and saddened for the athleticism of your nation) that in your 20 years in the gym you saw a significant percentage of red-blooded males for whom 140lb squat was too hard. afaik, Jarick is 200lb AMERICAN male. if he only squatted 140lb my 8 year old nephew could probably take his lunch money in a few months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
I'll bow out of this thread.

There's always an expert that knows what's best for everyone and this thread already has one.

The fact is that people of different ages, occupations, body types, past injuries, limitations based on body structure, etc. will surely have different range of motion capabilities, will find certain exercises more suited to their bodies, have different tolerances for over training, etc.

A true mesomorph at 22 yrs. old and injury free can basically do whatever he wants in a gym, not overtrain and make great improvements.

An ectomorph/hard gainer with pre existing injuries in his mid thirties or forties. Much different tolerance to exercise.

Precisely why the "know it all" my way or your wrong on an internet forum fails miserably.
take two specimen of average 18-30 year olds who never really lifted. you look at them and see that they will have different weight, height, needs, eating habits, range of motion, etc. and REQUIRE separate regimens. that's a good way to sell $500 personal training services.

what i would see is that these individuals have one common underdeveloped muscle group, the posterior chain. There is only one way to train that muscle group that's as simple, robust, and effective as squats. all their differences will get consumed into a slightly different squat stance, shoulder/arm starting position, different starting weight at the beginning of their program, etc. everything else is virtually the same. do your 3x5 squats, eat well, get some rest, add 5 lbs the next workout.

that's a good way to give away $500 worth of advice on the internet. someone gave it to me (and sparked an interest in physical fitness), and now i say the same thing to people face-to-face and on the internet. i don't have 20 years gym experience, but i pretty much repeat 90% of rippetoe, pendlay, dan john, aragon, mcdonald, tsatsouline, and other. i doubt any one person can beat the credentials of those giants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rk5n View Post
I just want to add this. Theres nothing wrong with squatting 3+ times a week. That is of course if you are eating enough to support muscle growth. If you're currently squatting once a week (or worse: not at all), give yourself a few weeks to work into the work load. Once you're into it, you'll find that your muscles recover much quicker than before and you'll rarely get sore. Usually the only way my body gets sore now is if I try something new such as 20 rep sets, timed sets with 135 (try 3-4 minutes, brutal) or single leg exercises. Mixing your routine up every so often is a good thing, just make sure not to do it right before a big game.
lack of soreness is not quicker recovery. recovery is how quickly you can get back to the gym and complete your next workset without failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
My one advice for everyone in this thread is this. There are no set guidelines to a strength and conditioning program. Each athlete much be trained individually with constant tweaks to a program. There is no such thing as optimal training. Programs are not cookie cutter and the individualization of the athlete must be at the heart of every program.
??? no set guidelines? some programs obviously work better than others for a vast majority of people.

there is optimal training, but it would be impossible to follow it because you'd need perfect information on how much weight you can do every day BEFORE you do it. however, the Starting Strength program is VERY close to optimal for beginners, because (1) compliance is much easier than other programs, (2) takes less time in the gym, and (3) incorporates linear progressions, which is just about the limit of your gains unless you are a genetic freak.

you are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. you are a product of millions of years of evolution in which your ancestors had to be strong and fast to survive on a diet made almost entirely of milk, meat, fruit, and roots. you are GENETICALLY predisposed to do the same. the sooner you realize that, the quicker you can start getting strong.

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Old
02-06-2012, 02:13 PM
  #33
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ponder,

cool. i had to look up what the hell i told you. lol.

you didn't take all of my advice, but at least you stopped doing 10 rep sets. i also realized i never answered your rest days question. personally, i take a rest day after every heavy squat or deadlift day. that means no hockey too. the deadlifts especially kill you the next day once you get around 2x bodyweight. do you mind sharing your current program, and weight you are pushing?
Day 1/3:
- Squats on day 1, deadlift on day 3 (otherwise day 1/3 are identical)
- Bench
- Power cleans

Day 2/4:
- Standing press
- Bicep curls
- Triceps (cable machine, straight bar push down)
- Pull-ups (3 sets, each to failure)

Everything is 4X6 except for the pull ups. In general day 1 is Saturday, day 2 Sunday, day 3 Tuesday, day 4 Wednesday, though sometimes I'm too busy and have to push the odd day back. I'm currently at 150 lb bench, 225 lb squat. Mix up a protein shake with 500 mL milk and 2 scoops of powder before every workout, drink a little under half of it before the workout, and the rest after the workout, also take a multivitamin every day. I'm 6', 180 lbs. I own "Starting Strength," which I use for form tips for the big lifts, and have had the odd personal training session.

I also do some physio stretching and strengthening exercises at home for my knees, and do the P90 "ab ripper" workout for my abs, also at home (about 3x per week). I think this is a pretty solid all around workout, although if I'm missing anything, it might be my upper back, which I'm not hitting that specifically.

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02-06-2012, 02:40 PM
  #34
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nah, you are not missing much in terms of upper back, pullups and presses take care of that. current schedule looks much more manageable with 3 rest days. i think i would rather do a second set of light squats than a second set of standing presses, but since chest/biceps/triceps seem important to you, just do it. as long as a program includes squats and deadlifts, it's probably ok.

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02-06-2012, 02:47 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
nah, you are not missing much in terms of upper back, pullups and presses take care of that. current schedule looks much more manageable with 3 rest days. i think i would rather do a second set of light squats than a second set of standing presses, but since chest/biceps/triceps seem important to you, just do it. as long as a program includes squats and deadlifts, it's probably ok.
I was doing both squats AND deadlifts on days 1 and 3, but felt like that was a bit much, so am down to 1 of each pre week (down from 2 of each per week). I also do bodyweight squats standing on a bosu ball twice a week as part of my physio, run around 4 times a week, play 1 hockey game a week, and play stick and puck about 2 times a week, so I felt like doing squats twice was just a bit more than my legs could handle. The program probably is a touch upper body heavy, but that's what I want.

Good to hear that this program should be hitting my upper back enough. I'll probably more or less stick to this program through the winter and summer, maybe look to switch things up at the end of the summer.

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02-08-2012, 11:12 PM
  #36
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Picked up a pair of olympic 45's tonight. Big boy plates.

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02-17-2012, 10:44 AM
  #37
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An update to this thread:

I rearranged my basement and got rid of the squat box plates. My flexibility must be improving because I can squat just about ass to grass (the safety bars on the side prevent that). Widening my feet and pointing my toes out while focusing on "knees out" seemed to help. Feels a lot better anyway.

I'm now getting a bit of shoulder pain on bench, which might be from too wide of a grip. I'll change that up next time.

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02-17-2012, 10:51 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
An update to this thread:

I rearranged my basement and got rid of the squat box plates. My flexibility must be improving because I can squat just about ass to grass (the safety bars on the side prevent that). Widening my feet and pointing my toes out while focusing on "knees out" seemed to help. Feels a lot better anyway.

I'm now getting a bit of shoulder pain on bench, which might be from too wide of a grip. I'll change that up next time.
Not sure how true this is, but I've heard it can be detrimental to go much beyond having your upper legs parallel to the ground. Also, I used to be able to go really deep on squats because I was letting my knees track too far forwards, when really your knees should not be going beyond your toes. Once I corrected my form I can now only go parallel. Maybe you're just more flexible than me, but is it possible that you're letting your knees track too far forward?

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02-17-2012, 10:54 AM
  #39
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I don't think the knees are too far forward. I worked on that the past couple weeks when I was getting knee pain. Hips are further back now. Pretty much everything I've heard/read in the last 10-15 years is that below parallel with good form is healthier than at or above parallel with good form.

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02-17-2012, 10:55 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
I don't think the knees are too far forward. I worked on that the past couple weeks when I was getting knee pain. Hips are further back now. Pretty much everything I've heard/read in the last 10-15 years is that below parallel with good form is healthier than at or above parallel with good form.
Fair enough, as I said I could easily be wrong. And if your knees are staying relatively back, then nevermind that comment

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02-17-2012, 01:19 PM
  #41
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ATG vs just below parallel has more to do with the "bounce" that you get out of your hamstrings, rather than whether you are tracking over the toes. rippetoe covers that very well.

if you are worried, take a cellphone video of yourself and post a link. if you'd rather people here didn't know what you look like, Rippetoe's board has a whole subforum for that.

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02-17-2012, 01:33 PM
  #42
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I was just doing that a bit in warmups, not actual squats. Getting that deep with my working weight would be trouble trying to get back up. I was more surprised I could go that deep, and sitting far back enough that I was brushing against the back of the rack.

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02-20-2012, 05:43 AM
  #43
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It is natural to go ATG for all human beings. Otherwise we wouldn't have the range of motion. Sure you will not be able to use the same weight as with the standard squats, and most sports do not require going so deep, but I think it is good for joint health and flexibility to do ATG squats. If that's in your warmup, I think that's great too.

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03-30-2012, 01:52 PM
  #44
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Bumping this.

I see I've been benching wrong. Haven't had my weight on my shoulders/traps like a lot of the videos of folks who know what they're doing (Dave Tate, Mark Rippetoe) teach. And that should help get a lot more power. Which is good because I've been stuck ~110 with shoulder pains. Looking forward to trying this tonight, being able to use more of a "total body" bench than purely arms.

Also watched some squat technique videos, I think my upper body is too upright. I'm going to get a cheap video camera tonight and record my form so I can compare it to what it should be.

Lastly I've been doing some sumo deadlifts lately and they feel a lot more comfortable than regular. Did some technique adjustments last week and feels much better, much more a hamstring and hip exercise than before.

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03-30-2012, 02:44 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Bumping this.

I see I've been benching wrong. Haven't had my weight on my shoulders/traps like a lot of the videos of folks who know what they're doing (Dave Tate, Mark Rippetoe) teach. And that should help get a lot more power. Which is good because I've been stuck ~110 with shoulder pains. Looking forward to trying this tonight, being able to use more of a "total body" bench than purely arms.
feel free to include the videos you watched in here. dave tate is especially good. rippetoe kinda just gives very basic advice. he's really not a bench expert.

Quote:
Also watched some squat technique videos, I think my upper body is too upright. I'm going to get a cheap video camera tonight and record my form so I can compare it to what it should be.
upright body is not bad, and really should only depends on the position of bar (see picture below). it is possible you are using LBBS cues while setting up for a HBBS. do post videos.



Quote:
Lastly I've been doing some sumo deadlifts lately and they feel a lot more comfortable than regular. Did some technique adjustments last week and feels much better, much more a hamstring and hip exercise than before.
personally i hate sumo dls, so it could just be my bias. however a regular dl should be a LOT more of a hip exercise, simply because the sumo starts at a point much closer to hip extension than a regular one. one cue that will help you "feel" it in your hips during regular dls, is "fire the glutes" at lockout. you really gotta engage the hamstring and the butt at the top of the lift because that's the last muscle group that can finish the lift. your legs are already straight, your quads can't contract any further.

another disadvantage of the sumo IMO is lower torsion forces on your back (because it's a lot more upright), which sorta robs you of the erector/lats gains that many beginners see when they finally do heavy dl pulls.

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03-30-2012, 04:35 PM
  #46
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That might be it with the squats. I am using low bar positioning and for some reason thought I needed to keep my torso upright.

Really I need to spend a lot more time reading the book as it details these things, but watching videos seems to clear it up. I can usually spot other people's problems, so hopefully I can spot mine.

Regular deadlifts put much more pressure on my low back but yes there were hips and hamstrings involved. Sumo hit the hamstrings and hips harder. Felt better to me. Then again with warmups I'm using 25's and not using 45's until my 5-rep weight, so that might change the stance a bit.


I also noticed from digging around the SS forums they really emphasize eating a ton of food, a lot more than I have which has been < 2000 cals a day (maintenance is probably between 2500-3000 for me), which could be getting in the way of my recovery and energy levels. I'm going to try going back up to eating cleaner food in larger quantities to see how that helps.

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04-02-2012, 11:08 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Regular deadlifts put much more pressure on my low back but yes there were hips and hamstrings involved. Sumo hit the hamstrings and hips harder. Felt better to me. Then again with warmups I'm using 25's and not using 45's until my 5-rep weight, so that might change the stance a bit.
warming up with smaller 25 wheels on the dl is a mistake (even if you do sumo). the setup is a hugely important part of the lift. warm up with light RDL's instead and go straight to 135 after that.

lower back pain has like 50 different causes. the overall chances that you have something terrible there like a bulging disc are low. it's way more likely that you have a tight/shortened psoas or a lateral rotator, that's putting your lumbar in a bad position. that's not to say that you should suck it up and do regular dl's, but the point of doing mobility and training for strength is so you can do a heavy regular dl with no problems. IMO figuring out why you have that pain is well worth it.

of course there are plenty of people who just give up on regular dl's and never do them. sometimes their long arms and short legs just dictate that sumo is way easier. sometimes they have a torn lat. sometimes they have a herniated/bulging disc. they are not really held back by the lift though, they are held back by those other factors. so it's upto you which way you want to pull.

Quote:
I also noticed from digging around the SS forums they really emphasize eating a ton of food, a lot more than I have which has been < 2000 cals a day (maintenance is probably between 2500-3000 for me), which could be getting in the way of my recovery and energy levels. I'm going to try going back up to eating cleaner food in larger quantities to see how that helps.
the calorie thing is VERY big. a caloric/protein surplus is simply required for non-obese people to support recovery. 500-1000 calorie deficit is huge for SS, and having tried it myself, i wouldn't recommend it to anyone under 200lbs. it basically means you are losing 1-2 lbs a week. it's just not needed, and makes everything much harder. warmups feels heavy, worksets seem impossible. your mood changes, which makes working out difficult for some people, and makes it difficult to be around those people. a lot of people opt for an SS/cut cycle, where they do legit SS with caloric surpluses for X months, then cut for Y months while only doing strength maintenance.

however, IF you choose to go the SS/deficit route, make sure that (1) you get plenty of protein. most people miss their targets, so trying to average 1g per pound of bodyweight per day over a week usually means 0.5-0.8g. many people have done incredible things getting as much as 1.5g/lbs/day. it's safe, it won't fry your kidneys. and (2) make sure to eat before/after your workout. food is energy. if you are on a diet and/or hungry, your energy is low. that will mess with your worksets.

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04-02-2012, 11:49 AM
  #48
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I'm not even at 135 5-rep max though, will be by next week though.

Per the Starting Strength, it says to warm up with your regular lifts. I was thinking warmup with regular barbell DL's and then do sumo for my working set.



Chopped up some wood for the squat box this weekend. Going to probably finish it later this week.



For the cals, I upped them this weekend and felt a lot better. Had to eat a lot more, likely in the 2500-3000 range. Actually lost an inch on the waist since last week because I was regularly lifting again. I expect I'll have to eat even more once I get back up into real weights (did a small reset).

Also adding in an extra protein shake per day with skim milk to get another 35g protein in.

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04-02-2012, 12:37 PM
  #49
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I'm not even at 135 5-rep max though, will be by next week though.
you are pulling sumo at under 135? if you are having lumbar pain from that weight, i think you are simply rounding your back. correct me if i am wrong, but you are squatting way above that, right?

if you've lifted for close to 2 months and your DL is still under 135, i think you are being a tad too conservative with adding weight, which could be because of the lumbar issues, or because of low calories. rippetoe says as much as DL can easily jump 15-20 lbs every other workout for average 20yo males.

having the dl bar too low (e.g. using 25's instead of 45's) promotes rounding your back at setup. it's different from the squat in the sense that you have to get into the bottom position without the benefit of the weight pushing you into it. your lumbar needs to be exactly straight and not round at liftoff.

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04-02-2012, 12:47 PM
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Not really.

I started SS in late January, got in a few weeks, ran out of weight for my DL's (at 140 pounds or so), then a week later got a mild concussion in hockey and then a sinus infection that kept me out a month.

So two weeks ago I did a full "reset" on my weights and I'm still doing the initial 10 pounds per workout jumps.

Right now I'm at:

Squat - 125
OH Press - 50
DL - 130
Bench - 95

My 5RM at my best were about:

Squat - 150
OH Press - 70?
DL - 155
Bench - 110

But like I said I only got a few weeks into the program, so I wasn't really stalling out on those weights. And this is the first time I've ever actually lifted seriously, so I have very little experience outside of a few months in high school.

I'm hoping that, since I'm not trying to "diet" anymore but eating lots of clean food with additional protein, I can make those big initial gains Rippetoe talks about. My limiting factors thus far have been right knee pain on squats above 140 and right shoulder pain on bench above 100. And I do know my form is not correct, hence trying to get a camera to take video so I can see what I'm doing wrong.

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