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Will the Flyers carry an Enforcer next year?

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Old
03-31-2012, 12:12 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
But yet somehow he plays a checking role and they are grooming him into a penalty killer next year. At most right now he is above average. If he isn't hell then he is average.

Stats are so misleading. Watch the game closely. Watch ALL of the players closely. The eye test will never lie. That Corsi stat is flawed so i don't care much for it.
Yes, corsi is not perfect, but it's better than only using the eye test. Also, how is he playing a "checking role" when he's not even on the ice taking a regular shift in the third period if the game is close?

I do agree that they should attempt to groom him into this role, but to do this, he needs to spend at least half a year in the AHL, take a regular shift (ES and PK), and stay out of trouble.

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03-31-2012, 12:34 AM
  #27
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Keep Sestito as the 13th forward. And then you can juggle him and Rinaldo and just keep sitting the one who does something stupid.

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03-31-2012, 12:51 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
But yet somehow he plays a checking role and they are grooming him into a penalty killer next year. At most right now he is above average. If he isn't hell then he is average.

Stats are so misleading. Watch the game closely. Watch ALL of the players closely. The eye test will never lie. That Corsi stat is flawed so i don't care much for it.
So advanced stats are wrong and your eyes are right? If he is soo great defensively, why hasnt he even logged one shift on the pk? Grooming ussually means playing here and there on the pk. He hasnt played on it... at all. He is one of 3 players to log ZERO minutes/seconds on the pk. Him Shelly and Sestito havent seen even a second on the pk. Playing on a 4th line, is playing on the 4th line, checking line or not.

I watch the game very closely. He is below average defensively. What Rinaldo can do is hit people and agitate. That's it.

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03-31-2012, 12:53 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
Rinaldo has been playing in a checking role against the top players in the game in this stretch run. Its clear on what role they want to groom him in. He is decent defensively and he continues to work hard at it. Add his speed, physicality and agitating skills he will be a great bottom line player in the future if he continues to mature. PL obviously disagrees with you.

Sestito is the only guy in our system who could player the enforcer role but also play the game. The problem with people who think like you is you look at **** on paper and think its the best way or its going to work. There are intangibles and variables of an NHL roster.

I want guys like Wellwood to make the NHL. But we have so many forwards and simply playing all skilled ones in every spot just doesn't work like that. You need the grinders and muckers who fight for pucks in the corners. Bang bodys and wear out the defense. Make the top line players feel and play bigger. Work hard on every shift. They are very valuable come playoff time. Because of the grind and energy they can inject into the lineup.

I think you're giving Rinaldo credit for Couturier's work. He's a limited forward at both ends of the ice, and Couturier covers up for him big time. Between Rinaldo and Wellwood, Wellwood is the superior defensive player and has better two-way ability and upside in a bottom 6 role. I'm not saying to get rid of Rinaldo, he fits an energy/agitator role that is sometimes useful, but when everyone gets healthy he's clearly the 13th forward based on merit.


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Originally Posted by Philadelphia Ducks View Post
Keep Sestito as the 13th forward. And then you can juggle him and Rinaldo and just keep sitting the one who does something stupid.
Assuming Jagr is back, we're talking about Rinaldo and Sestito as the 13th and 14th forwards, not the 12th and 13th. Is it necessary to carry 14 when at least one of them could be contributing and developing in the AHL?

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03-31-2012, 01:09 AM
  #30
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A player that can't do anything except be an enforcer has no place in the NHL anymore.

But players that can play and fight, they are gonna become a bit more valuable I think.... certainly moreso than a straight up enforcer.

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03-31-2012, 02:02 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Go For It View Post
Yes, corsi is not perfect, but it's better than only using the eye test. Also, how is he playing a "checking role" when he's not even on the ice taking a regular shift in the third period if the game is close?

I do agree that they should attempt to groom him into this role, but to do this, he needs to spend at least half a year in the AHL, take a regular shift (ES and PK), and stay out of trouble.
Even the commentators have been talking about his checking role. PL has even stated this in an article. But yet somehow he is a useless goon. Right.

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03-31-2012, 02:24 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
So advanced stats are wrong and your eyes are right? If he is soo great defensively, why hasnt he even logged one shift on the pk? Grooming ussually means playing here and there on the pk. He hasnt played on it... at all. He is one of 3 players to log ZERO minutes/seconds on the pk. Him Shelly and Sestito havent seen even a second on the pk. Playing on a 4th line, is playing on the 4th line, checking line or not.

I watch the game very closely. He is below average defensively. What Rinaldo can do is hit people and agitate. That's it.
Corsi stats are flawed. Its a lame stat used by message board GMs and hockey blog "analyst". Are you meaning to tell me that because of Matt Carle leading corsi among d-man that he is our top defenseman? Hell no.

By watching and trying to be a student of the game you will see that Matt Carle is a decent puck moving defensman. Overrated passer but isn't too bad. Very good using his stick defensively(underrated aspect of his game) and decent positionally. Struggles with bigger forwards and can make a critical mistake in his own zone. Not capable of QBing a PP and has a weak shot. Doesn't see shooting lanes too well. Corsi doesn't truly tell the players skill.

I don't like measuring a player off stats because they do net tell the whole story. I see them as just tools for fans to argue who is better because they cannot get deeply in depth with the game by seeing players roles and making a game to game report on he pros and cons of the players game and logically making an unbiased assessment. Watching closely and understanding hockey and the X's and O's will let you see whats going on. Am i saying i have more hockey knowledge? Hell no. After all this is just my opinion just like you all have yours. But i sometimes question if people really watch the game and know the game inside and out.

When did i say he is great defensively? Do you read? He isn't on the PK because there are players superior to him in that aspect.

Read on what the people in the organization are saying about him.
They are trying to expand his game. In practice they are playing him on the PK. Obviously that is some insight to what the organization sees into what he could possibly do in the future. If he doesn't have that in him why are they wasting their time then?

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03-31-2012, 02:29 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
I think you're giving Rinaldo credit for Couturier's work. He's a limited forward at both ends of the ice, and Couturier covers up for him big time. Between Rinaldo and Wellwood, Wellwood is the superior defensive player and has better two-way ability and upside in a bottom 6 role. I'm not saying to get rid of Rinaldo, he fits an energy/agitator role that is sometimes useful, but when everyone gets healthy he's clearly the 13th forward based on merit.
That is just a general statement lol. You are just saying that to say that. Couturier is the best defensive forward we have. Are you really saying one forward is doing all the work as a shutdown line? Please. Then you are saying Rinaldo, Talbot, and Voracek are doing nothing. Also add Grossman and Coburn who are with that line when the other teams top line is out. Its a team effort when it comes to our shutdown guys. Not individual and that shutdown unit is working ****ing fantastic.

Wellwood has a bigger upside then a bottom 6 role. He would be a serious prospect on a team that could give him playing time. Rinaldo will be a career checking forward. Nothing wrong with that. If everyone is healthy Wellwood would be in the AHL. I wouldn't be surprised.

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03-31-2012, 03:21 AM
  #34
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I did read that Rinaldo is Pking in practice and they plan to use him on the pk in the future. He has room for his role to expand. Let him try it before you label him a simple agitator.

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03-31-2012, 03:41 AM
  #35
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Rinaldo is still labelled because of his junior career. It's sad really

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03-31-2012, 05:13 AM
  #36
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Until the cap for next season is set, and/or Suter signs elsewhere, I hope we'll see

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
JvR-Couturier-Read
Simmonds-Schenn-Brière
Wellwood/Rinaldo-Talbot-Voracek

(Pronger)-Suter
Timonen-Meszaros
Coburn-Grossmann
Lilja-Gustafsson/Bourdon

Bryzgalov
Bobrovsky



It's time to waive Shelley, or perhaps convince him to retire and take up some position within the organization... Sestito is too much of a side show for my taste.

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03-31-2012, 05:21 AM
  #37
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As for the Rinaldo debate, this is where it's a bit unfortunate that we more or less had to waive Nödl. Rinaldo and Scrabbles would probably have benefited from spending some more time in the AHL and work on their defensive games, perhaps forming a PK duo together.

Rinaldo is still one of the more positive surprises for me this season, he's been a lot better than I thought he'd be. I thought he'd look out of place when we got healthy, and he "had" to play with two more skilled players, but he's better overall than I expected. Wellwood is probably a better player, but Rinaldo brings elements that this team somewhat lacks.

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03-31-2012, 08:50 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go For It View Post
Rinaldo shouldn't be anywhere near a true checking line. He is what he is, a fourth line pest/agitator.
I thought Rinaldo has been playing great on the 3rd line. He has been disciplined, playing good defense and has been hitting everything that moves. Sure he won't score a ton of points, but hockey is more about just points. Rinaldo clears a path for the other players on this team and has clearly improved his play from earlier in the season.

I would not be against trading one of our top wingers (JVR, Vorachek) if we could get a top pairing D in return. Kimmo will retire soon and who knows if Pronger will ever play again. This team will lack a true go to D-man very soon and it would be smart to try and go get Kimmo's replacement. This would also give Wellwood an increased role on this team in the future. I also think Jagr should return here because you can tell the players love playing with him and give it their all when he is out there on the ice. He is great for this team.

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03-31-2012, 12:24 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
Even the commentators have been talking about his checking role. PL has even stated this in an article. But yet somehow he is a useless goon. Right.
First, don't put words in my mouth. Never said he was useless or a goon. I said right now, he is a 4th line pest or agitator and that he would benefit from spending a year in the AHL to get the minutes to learn to play a checking line role and to PK.

Commentators and the coach praising his "checking role" in public means absolutely nothing. These are the same commentators and coach who go on about how Jody Shelley and other players of his skill set have a place on the team.

I looked back through the last couple of tight games (two goal or less differential between the final score) and looked at Rinaldo's TOI.

3/17 - PHI vs BOS (2-3 SOL)

Rinaldo - 6:06 TOI

Rinaldo had the least amount of TOI among non-injured players on either team

3/18 - PHI vs PIT (3-2 OT W)

Rinaldo - 11:53 TOI

Line up was shuffled due to injuries to Talbot et al. Rinaldo has more TOI than Shelley and Wellwood

3/20 - PHI vs FL (2-1 L)

Rinaldo - 8:54 TOI

Rinaldo has least amount of TOI on Flyers, second least in game (Kyle Barch - 6:39)

3/22 - PHI vs WAS (2-1 SO W)

Rinaldo - 6:16

Least amount of TOI in the game.

3/26 - PHI vs TB (3-5 L)

Rinaldo - 8:19 TOI

Rinaldo has least amount of TOI on flyers, 4th least in game.


So in every close game recently with a (somewhat) healthy team, Rinaldo has been playing the least among all our forwards, and when the third period starts, barely sees the ice. Not exactly what "checking line forwards" do.

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03-31-2012, 01:08 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
Corsi stats are flawed. Its a lame stat used by message board GMs and hockey blog "analyst". Are you meaning to tell me that because of Matt Carle leading corsi among d-man that he is our top defenseman? Hell no.

By watching and trying to be a student of the game you will see that Matt Carle is a decent puck moving defensman. Overrated passer but isn't too bad. Very good using his stick defensively(underrated aspect of his game) and decent positionally. Struggles with bigger forwards and can make a critical mistake in his own zone. Not capable of QBing a PP and has a weak shot. Doesn't see shooting lanes too well. Corsi doesn't truly tell the players skill.

I don't like measuring a player off stats because they do net tell the whole story. I see them as just tools for fans to argue who is better because they cannot get deeply in depth with the game by seeing players roles and making a game to game report on he pros and cons of the players game and logically making an unbiased assessment. Watching closely and understanding hockey and the X's and O's will let you see whats going on. Am i saying i have more hockey knowledge? Hell no. After all this is just my opinion just like you all have yours. But i sometimes question if people really watch the game and know the game inside and out.

When did i say he is great defensively? Do you read? He isn't on the PK because there are players superior to him in that aspect.

Read on what the people in the organization are saying about him.
They are trying to expand his game. In practice they are playing him on the PK. Obviously that is some insight to what the organization sees into what he could possibly do in the future. If he doesn't have that in him why are they wasting their time then?
I think you are misunderstanding what Corsi is. And also Corsi is not the only advanced stat that can be used to evaluate a player. Obviously you cant just depend on advanced stats when judging a player, but in debates when you are trying to see which player is better or if a player is good, stats that see how hard of competition he plays, who he plays with, how many shots the other team has when he is on the ice vs. off, how many goals are scored when he is on the ice, are very important. Would you believe a guy who says "well I watch the game and he is a good player" or a guy who says "Well according to these advanced stats, this player is average". Now maybe you would agree with the person who's opinion is purely eye based, but myself, I would agree with the person who based his opinion on the stats provided. Maybe it is just because Im an engineer and work in an environment where facts matter, but that's just how I judge things.

Now on the Matt Carle thing, you need to take in ALL the stats when judging him. If you go by BSH, they pick specific stats that help them show he is a good player. But thats not the whole truth truth. Carle plays against pretty weak competition, and his corsi directly correlates to that. Timonen leads the team in all categories, which I think we all agree with has been our best defender this season.

Now on Rinaldo, the whole "he is praciting on the pk thing" I think came about during the article of the Eric Lindros thing correct? Other then that, there has been NO indication, other than in the beginning of the season when they said they would like to make Rinaldo into a pker, that he is on the pk. The article on the Eric Lindros thing also stated though that he was on the pk with other lower line players/scratches such as Bourdon, Gustafsson, Shelly, Wellwood, etc etc. In the AHL, they played him in one game on the pk, and after that never played him on the pk again. Rinaldo is what he is, a 4th line player who can agitate and hit people. I'll give him credit, he does a good job at it and has, for the most part, not taken stupid penalties. But it's unfair to the player when you start putting him in roles he has never played in before. Will in the future the Flyers may try him on the pk? Sure. But right now he isnt even getting looked at for pk time. Next season he will have to go against Giroux/Voracek/Wellwood/Holmstrom(if he resigns), for the last pk spot. He isnt going to outbeat Read, Couturier, and Talbot. Rinaldo is a player where, 5-7 minutes of icetime is where he should be at for his skill level. Yes, you need players to play rough and tough, but they arent a significant need such as clutch pker's or other players who bring a similar skillset to the team but include other parts on the resume. The Rinaldo on the pk almost sounds like one trying to get him something else on his resume so he doesnt see the bench.

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03-31-2012, 01:15 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
Corsi stats are flawed. Its a lame stat used by message board GMs and hockey blog "analyst". Are you meaning to tell me that because of Matt Carle leading corsi among d-man that he is our top defenseman? Hell no.
That is not true.

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Now on Rinaldo, the whole "he is praciting on the pk thing" I think came about during the article of the Eric Lindros thing correct? Other then that, there has been NO indication, other than in the beginning of the season when they said they would like to make Rinaldo into a pker, that he is on the pk. The article on the Eric Lindros thing also stated though that he was on the pk with other lower line players/scratches such as Bourdon, Gustafsson, Shelly, Wellwood, etc etc. In the AHL, they played him in one game on the pk, and after that never played him on the pk again. Rinaldo is what he is, a 4th line player who can agitate and hit people. I'll give him credit, he does a good job at it and has, for the most part, not taken stupid penalties. But it's unfair to the player when you start putting him in roles he has never played in before. Will in the future the Flyers may try him on the pk? Sure. But right now he isnt even getting looked at for pk time. Next season he will have to go against Giroux/Voracek/Wellwood/Holmstrom(if he resigns), for the last pk spot. He isnt going to outbeat Read, Couturier, and Talbot. Rinaldo is a player where, 5-7 minutes of icetime is where he should be at for his skill level. Yes, you need players to play rough and tough, but they arent a significant need such as clutch pker's or other players who bring a similar skillset to the team but include other parts on the resume. The Rinaldo on the pk almost sounds like one trying to get him something else on his resume so he doesnt see the bench.
That's what he was sent to the Phantoms for earlier int he season, but they abandoned that quickly. They have better players to do that anyways, which to me makes no sense that guys that come up from the Phantoms do it, but he can't (and thus the Flyers do not ice the 20 best possible players available to them). And he's someone who supposedly has been getting more responsibility according to the coach (which is generally unsubstantiated). We also know that the organization tells anyone will listen at any opportunity that he is an NHL player.

It's clear the Flyers want Sestito on the NHL roster as well. There isn't enough room for Rinaldo, Shelley and Sestito. Wellwood is clearly an NHL player as well so that bumps another guy off.

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03-31-2012, 02:52 PM
  #42
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That is not true.



That's what he was sent to the Phantoms for earlier int he season, but they abandoned that quickly. They have better players to do that anyways, which to me makes no sense that guys that come up from the Phantoms do it, but he can't (and thus the Flyers do not ice the 20 best possible players available to them). And he's someone who supposedly has been getting more responsibility according to the coach (which is generally unsubstantiated). We also know that the organization tells anyone will listen at any opportunity that he is an NHL player.

It's clear the Flyers want Sestito on the NHL roster as well. There isn't enough room for Rinaldo, Shelley and Sestito. Wellwood is clearly an NHL player as well so that bumps another guy off.
Actually, it's not clear about Sestito, he was sent down just before Christmas and has been in and out a lot.

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03-31-2012, 03:18 PM
  #43
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Actually, it's not clear about Sestito, he was sent down just before Christmas and has been in and out a lot.
Well thats not totally true. He had a regular 4th line spot for a few games in a row before he went out with a pretty serious injury. He hasnt recovered from the injury yet.

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03-31-2012, 03:22 PM
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no, but we will have one sorry excuse for a hockey player in jody shelley.....

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03-31-2012, 03:44 PM
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Well thats not totally true. He had a regular 4th line spot for a few games in a row before he went out with a pretty serious injury. He hasnt recovered from the injury yet.
Yes, but that often happens with bubble guys, it's hard to tell over a season. We'll see if he's re-signed to a 1-way.

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03-31-2012, 11:30 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by ninetynine View Post
Actually, it's not clear about Sestito, he was sent down just before Christmas and has been in and out a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Well thats not totally true. He had a regular 4th line spot for a few games in a row before he went out with a pretty serious injury. He hasnt recovered from the injury yet.
They wanted him to give them a reason to get rid of Shelley. Once he got hurt, that was the end of that.

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03-31-2012, 11:41 PM
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That is just a general statement lol. You are just saying that to say that. Couturier is the best defensive forward we have. Are you really saying one forward is doing all the work as a shutdown line? Please. Then you are saying Rinaldo, Talbot, and Voracek are doing nothing. Also add Grossman and Coburn who are with that line when the other teams top line is out. Its a team effort when it comes to our shutdown guys. Not individual and that shutdown unit is working ****ing fantastic.
I'm not sure what to make of this garbled mess of straw men and strange arguments (saying that to say that? What does that mean?). My point is that playing with Couturier has boosted Rinaldo's +/- numbers. And yes, a center (especially a long, smart center) really does have more defensive impact and influence than an undersized, run-around forward. I suspect that Rinaldo would be a decidedly (-) player without Couturier excelling as his center for most of the year.

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Wellwood has a bigger upside then a bottom 6 role. He would be a serious prospect on a team that could give him playing time. Rinaldo will be a career checking forward. Nothing wrong with that. If everyone is healthy Wellwood would be in the AHL. I wouldn't be surprised.
Wellwood has obviously jumped Rinaldo on the depth chart. Rinaldo did not make this team for "checking" reasons. His is an agitator/energy player and they are hoping he eventually develops a respectable defensive game.

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04-01-2012, 12:24 AM
  #48
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Rinaldo is still labelled because of his junior career. It's sad really
What about his AHL career?

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I'm not sure what to make of this garbled mess of straw men and strange arguments (saying that to say that? What does that mean?). My point is that playing with Couturier has boosted Rinaldo's +/- numbers. And yes, a center (especially a long, smart center) really does have more defensive impact and influence than an undersized, run-around forward. I suspect that Rinaldo would be a decidedly (-) player without Couturier excelling as his center for most of the year.
That's already happened, I prefer this to +/-:

http://hockeyprospectus.com/sortable/

Couturier is in the top 200 in GVT (as of last week) despite being a 4th line player (which is phenomenal), while only a handful of forwards have played more games and have a worse GVT than Rinaldo.

BSH also did a write up explaining (before Lavy claimed Rinaldo has been getting more responsibility), the data based on his usage suggests that they barely trust him to keep the next guy's seat warm on the bench. He's on the roster because he fights (overrated trait in a vacuum) and has a minuscule cap hit.

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04-01-2012, 10:13 AM
  #49
DUHockey9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
I believe it was because the Atlantic really beefed up that year. The Isles signed Konopka, who just came off of a season where he led the NHL in fights. Also, NYR had just signed Boogard to an even sicker contract.

Still a stupid signing, but I think that's why.
We signed Shelley before they signed Boograd. Rumor had it however, that the NYR were trying to sign Shelley too.

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