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Why do habs lose so many good young players before they're good?

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Old
03-30-2012, 10:39 PM
  #26
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
None of the players the habs have traded have gone on to win anything. Why are people so bent out of shape?
Didn't Ryder win a cup?
Wasn't Lappy and Higgins playing in the game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals? Which means they won the Campbell Bowl (western conference finals winner).

But in any event, it's irrelevant. Ovechkin didn't win anything, I'm pretty sure you'd be ecstatic if he were to come here.

It's not about winning, it's about getting proper return or developing them well.

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03-30-2012, 10:39 PM
  #27
Steve Shutt
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This is a myth. Seriously give me names. Who really left and became a star elsewhere? Leclair is the last one I can think of. Grabovski might be considered as well but we didn't need him and we have better centers now.

Ryder was already a 30 goals scorer here, carbo ruined him
Ribeiro was already good he was just a headcase and trading him was necessary
Latendresse is more injured than often
D'agostini is a 3rd liner at best
Pouliot proved that he's a bust
Akost is had plenty of chances here and he'll be the Akost that we know wherever he goes
Sergei was an unfortunate loss, we knew he'd be good but he was stupid here. And it's not like he's destroying the league. He's a decent 2nd line winger.

Who else?
Stars no - but all successful elsewhere:

Streit
Higgins
Lapierre
Halak
Bouillon

Maybe:
O'Byrne
Chipchura

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03-30-2012, 10:42 PM
  #28
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Because management has been surrounding them with soft, carefree teams that serve no purpose to young players. Good teams surround their youth with some grit, toughness and leadership.. not overpaid flyswatters.

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03-30-2012, 10:46 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think it falls on management. We've been so ready to jump toward quick fixes and making the playoffs that we've lost sight of the importance of development. We've made some really dumb decisions along the way and it's really hurt us.
This.

Whoever gets the reigns of GM for the draft, I care a lot more about their patience, and coherent, long-term vision in building a cup contender than whether he speaks a word of French.

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03-30-2012, 10:46 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Sure thing muffin.
Okay so I've been corrected. He's a second liner on a playoff team. Do we not lack second line wingers? And what did we receive for him? Dustin Boyd and Dan Ellis. It's a wasted asset. If all you want to do is nitpick then replace Sergei with Ribeiro. A first line center on a potential playoff team. It's not even that I like these players or want these players on our team. It's that we gave them away for nothing

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03-30-2012, 10:52 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by MJG View Post
Okay so I've been corrected. He's a second liner on a playoff team. Do we not lack second line wingers? And what did we receive for him? Dustin Boyd and Dan Ellis. It's a wasted asset. If all you want to do is nitpick then replace Sergei with Ribeiro. A first line center on a potential playoff team. It's not even that I like these players or want these players on our team. It's that we gave them away for nothing
You realize why they were dealt, right? It wasn't because of a perceived lack of ability, but more the sideshows they created. Which is a big part of why the return was so low at the time.

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03-30-2012, 10:53 PM
  #32
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Because management has been surrounding them with soft, carefree teams that serve no purpose to young players. Good teams surround their youth with some grit, toughness and leadership.. not overpaid flyswatters.
It starts before them reaching the team.

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03-30-2012, 10:55 PM
  #33
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Player A scores 10 goals in 4 games in the AHL.
Media + fans = PUSH HIM! NHL NOW! HE'S READY!
Player A is -2 and no points in 5 games in the NHL.
Media + fans = BUST! Trade him!
Player A is traded.
Player A gets the proper development before jumping to the NHL, with no pressure from media or fans.
Player A jumps to the NHL after a year or two.
Player A succeeds.
Media + fans = Our management sucks! FIRE EVERYONE!

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Old
03-30-2012, 10:58 PM
  #34
NotProkofievian
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
Player A scores 10 goals in 4 games in the AHL.
Media + fans = PUSH HIM! NHL NOW! HE'S READY!
Player A is -2 and no points in 5 games in the NHL.
Media + fans = BUST! Trade him!
Player A is traded.
Player A gets the proper development before jumping to the NHL, with no pressure from media or fans.
Player A jumps to the NHL after a year or two.
Player A succeeds.
Media + fans = Our management sucks! FIRE EVERYONE!
If this is indeed the cause of it, then yes, our management does suck. Wasn't it Selke or Pollock who said something about listening to the fans/media being literally the worst policy in running a team?

...but we both know it's not the case that the media is forcing management's hand at all. It's just that our management has been flat out, 100% unable to develop and manage a lot of their talented youth.

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03-30-2012, 11:01 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
If this is indeed the cause of it, then yes, our management does suck. Wasn't it Selke or Pollock who said something about listening to the fans/media being literally the worst policy in running a team?

...but we both know it's not the case that the media is forcing management's hand at all. It's just that our management has been flat out, 100% unable to develop and manage a lot of their talented youth.
May not be the case for every single one of them, but one of the players that falls under this theory is Latendresse. Amazing to me how hard this city and the media pushed for this kid to not only play for the Habs, but be a part of the top 6 rotation and the guy that would "put Koivu back on pace."

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03-30-2012, 11:11 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
May not be the case for every single one of them, but one of the players that falls under this theory is Latendresse. Amazing to me how hard this city and the media pushed for this kid to not only play for the Habs, but be a part of the top 6 rotation and the guy that would "put Koivu back on pace."
It was a little ridiculous: everyone chanting Guy! when he had the puck. Just ridiculous.

However, I think Roy was right in saying that Guillaume should've been in the Q as a 19 year old, and I think Gainey and Carbonneau were wrong in giving him a roster spot.

Plain and simple: you've gotta make unpopular decisions if you're going to be successful.

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Old
03-30-2012, 11:25 PM
  #37
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I think that proper player development is part of a coaches job and that has been part of the problem. If the coach doesnt play a guy or doesnt play him where he needs to play to be successful, the player is not going to have much value and you obviously wont get much for him. Players in that kind of situation may even lose their heads a bit and make things worse, and of course the fans and media will be all over them. A coach doing that ties the hands of the GM and forces firesales. I think BG certainly misjudged talent but I also think JM is responsible for our losing a few players we should have kept given the return.

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Old
03-30-2012, 11:25 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It starts before them reaching the team.
... yet it ends here, so what's the difference?

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03-30-2012, 11:42 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by MJG View Post
Okay so I've been corrected. He's a second liner on a playoff team. Do we not lack second line wingers? And what did we receive for him? Dustin Boyd and Dan Ellis. It's a wasted asset. If all you want to do is nitpick then replace Sergei with Ribeiro. A first line center on a potential playoff team. It's not even that I like these players or want these players on our team. It's that we gave them away for nothing
How far are we going back now? I agree I was just as angry as you when Streit, Koivu, Souray, Grabovski etc were allowed to leave for sweet **** all because for one reason or another those were bad moves. But I can't bring myself to be angry about losing Lapierre, Lats, D'agostini or SKost because teams all over the league ditch players like them every year.

There comes a point where you just have to move on and since gainey/gauthier is gone now is a pretty good time.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
Player A scores 10 goals in 4 games in the AHL.
Media + fans = PUSH HIM! NHL NOW! HE'S READY!
Player A is -2 and no points in 5 games in the NHL.
Media + fans = BUST! Trade him!
Player A is traded.
Player A gets the proper development before jumping to the NHL, with no pressure from media or fans.
Player A jumps to the NHL after a year or two.
Player A succeeds.
Media + fans = Our management sucks! FIRE EVERYONE!
If managment is listening to the fans/media for advice on how to develop players they should be fired because they are incompetent.

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Old
03-30-2012, 11:50 PM
  #40
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
... yet it ends here, so what's the difference?
Difference is, if you do it right earlier on, chances are it won't end here.

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03-31-2012, 12:39 AM
  #41
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Who cares their gone, get over it. All teams do it.

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03-31-2012, 12:41 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
May not be the case for every single one of them, but one of the players that falls under this theory is Latendresse. Amazing to me how hard this city and the media pushed for this kid to not only play for the Habs, but be a part of the top 6 rotation and the guy that would "put Koivu back on pace."
I don't know CS...

of the young players we gave up on recently, most of them had immediate (or at least, within 6-12months) NHL success with their new teams:

D'ago
O'Byrne
S.Kost
Latendresse
Lapierre
Grabovski
Palushaj, Weber (oops.. they haven't been dismissed just yet )

all of those players were put into positions to succeed almost as soon as they joined their new teams, and all of them responded by delivering very good, if not great, value to their new teams (from a cap hit-to-contribution pov).

meanwhile, our management team seemed to prefer crowding out those young players in favour of expensive veterans whose cap hit-to-contribution level was piss-poor.

of all the criticisms of the Gainey/Gauthier era, that may be the most fitting... they never seemed to understand the new paradigm that the cap era created. It's no longer a matter of just assembling the superior talent, it's about building a roster and managing it in a way that ensures that each level of "pay grade" is giving you quality value. That's something that a good manager CAN control, and the more effective you are at doing so, the more you protect yourself/your team against injuries & other unpredictable events (like your 7.4M$ player regressing to the point of being a sub-15min/night player).

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Old
03-31-2012, 10:13 AM
  #43
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No patience.
Constant win now methodology.
Bringing players up when their skill is ready but other facets of the game aren't.
Not developing the maturity of the player before he comes up in a big NHL market.

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Old
03-31-2012, 10:25 AM
  #44
Des Louise
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Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
I could list all the young players lost and are performing remarkably well; and we gave them away for almost free.

In last ten years, We have drafted very well, and found some real gem out of draft; yet, lot of young players are flourishing and making their mark with other teams

So, is this something that new management should look at and handle better? I really would like to see home grown prospects doing good with my team and not the leafs or the rangers...
A situation created by Gainey, where we loaded up on free agents and hired a coach not known to give big roles to young players. We had a mandate to try to squeak into the playoffs at all costs with the spare parts we signed.

It's the worst possible environment to develop young bubble prospects into because you get the worst of both worlds. Since you are trying so hard to be competitive, you can't give big roles to young players so they can learn and grow into those roles unless they are already exceptional (Subban comes to mind). You can't let them grow into those roles in the AHL either because they are the best candidates for small roles on the team. And it's not like you're a contender and you have future hall of fame superstars who can teach the young kids what it takes to dominate the league unless you believe the crap the habs would feed you about Gomez being a great mentor.

It's a vicious cycle that is created from going into the wrong direction. The bad direction of thinking that squeaking into the playoffs every year will eventually make us better.

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03-31-2012, 10:25 AM
  #45
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Why? 2 things.

1- Management inability to recognize talent amongst those players which either means not recognize the pure talent of the player itself but not recognizing who they should play with so they'd shine doing it.

2 - Management's inability to surround those talents with stronger players with better leadership skills, from coach to players.

And when I say MANAGEMENT, I exclude Timmins. Timmins has clearly mentioned how from Halak, to SKost, that they were great players that just needed some development to succeed. Timmins at the time of the draft would have bet that McDonagh would have become the guy he already is. And so on.

So ask yourself that question. How the **** did that management last so long when the guy EVERYBODY agrees may be the best in his business, you actually DON'T listen to him times and times again. I really can't believe Timmins didn't want out at some point. Yeah, I know he's still doing his job. But the frustration level had to be quite up in a few occasions....

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03-31-2012, 10:37 AM
  #46
Des Louise
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
May not be the case for every single one of them, but one of the players that falls under this theory is Latendresse. Amazing to me how hard this city and the media pushed for this kid to not only play for the Habs, but be a part of the top 6 rotation and the guy that would "put Koivu back on pace."
That's silly. Fans didn't run him out of town. They may have overhyped him but they didn't run him out of town. This one is on the habs management 100%.

Day 1 of camp Martin had it in for Latendresse and SK. Talks to trade Latendresse were in the works at the very beginning of that season. That's not the fans. Not one little bit.

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03-31-2012, 10:37 AM
  #47
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Every team has players that they lose that make them regret it one day. Only in Montreal and Toronto are these moves scrutinized as heavily as they are. Let me go through the list of players I am assuming you are thinking about:

McDonaugh - This was a horrible, horrible trade all around. No denying that. We got burned big time.

Grabovski - Had to go. Went AWOL on the team more than once and was a locker room cancer.

Sergei K - See Grabovski.

Lappiere - Demanded a trade. Also, players like Lappiere are a dime a dozen.

Lattendresse - Is injured all the time, barely played at all the past two seasons.

O'Byrne - Was given lots of chances in my opinion and could just never get over the hump. I like the guy but he is a bottom pairing NHL defenseman at best guys like him are a dime a dozen.

Halak - We have Price and if Eller continues to progress than I don't think anybody will be complaining about this trade for much longer. Eller is a PLAYER.

So what exactly are we complaining about here? Other than McDonaugh which is certainly depressing.

Roster turnover happens in the NHL folks.

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03-31-2012, 11:09 AM
  #48
Des Louise
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Originally Posted by MM425 View Post
Every team has players that they lose that make them regret it one day. Only in Montreal and Toronto are these moves scrutinized as heavily as they are.
And both of those teams have made HUGE mistakes. Toronto is bashed for a reason, Kessel for two high firsts, Rask for Raycroft. Still, I don't think Toronto wasted assets like Montreal did. Not nearly as much.

Quote:
Let me go through the list of players I am assuming you are thinking about:

McDonaugh - This was a horrible, horrible trade all around. No denying that. We got burned big time.
Yep.

Quote:
Grabovski - Had to go. Went AWOL on the team more than once and was a locker room cancer.

Sergei K - See Grabovski.
Because they were treated like crap. It's the chicken or the egg. With the management we had and their track record at treating players properly, and seeing what happened with Grabo and SK who have absolutely no problems with their respective teams... I'd have more of a tendency to blame the management here.

But I guess moving to another team made them mature instantly.

Quote:
Lappiere - Demanded a trade. Also, players like Lappiere are a dime a dozen.
Because of being misused by Martin who didn't want players like Lapierre on the team. But agreed, I'm not crying over Lapierre. But you'll notice that Lapierre went with (who was it, anaheim?), and it didn't work at all, and then he was flipped for an even bigger return. How does that happen ? Asset management being terrible is what's what.

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Lattendresse - Is injured all the time, barely played at all the past two seasons.
That does not make the trade any less bad.

Quote:
O'Byrne - Was given lots of chances in my opinion and could just never get over the hump. I like the guy but he is a bottom pairing NHL defenseman at best guys like him are a dime a dozen.
Agreed, O'byrne is meh.

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Halak - We have Price and if Eller continues to progress than I don't think anybody will be complaining about this trade for much longer. Eller is a PLAYER.
A player that isn't being given a role he should grow into. Eller shouldn't be a 3rd line guy playing with garbage players all the time. We have misused him BADLY so far. I would understand if we didn't have wingers to give him, but at the start of the season we had tons of wingers for all first 3 lines. AK was doing great with Eller and they were separated for no reason. That's the type of stuff that hinders the offensive progression of young players like Eller.

Eller, Weber, Diaz are all guys who we really screwed with this season with the way we handled them. We were trying to do that with Emelin at the beginning too, but he rose above it because he's actually experienced and has a lot of talent. Still, I bet he would have done better with another team. I bet all of these players would have done better. I remember before being canned, Martin blaming the young players like Diaz, Weber and Emelin despite the fact they were doing as great as humanly possible for players of their age/experience under the circumstances.

Quote:
So what exactly are we complaining about here? Other than McDonaugh which is certainly depressing.
We're complaining about the returns mostly. And hopefully the new management will be the one stealing good young players away for nothing in the future, and our coach will have the good sense to use them properly. Hopefully the next coach has a secure enough spot that he can do what's best for the team beyond the very next game.

Quote:
Roster turnover happens in the NHL folks.
How do you explain that with one of the best drafting record in the NHL over the past 10 years - certainly top 5, possibly even the best - we have so little to show for it ?

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Old
03-31-2012, 11:16 AM
  #49
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Ryan Mcdonagh
This trade seriously has the potential to end up as one of the worst trades in Habs history. McDonagh is very rapidly turning into the 1-2# defenseman we all knew he'd become, already putting up 30 points in his sophomore season. He'll eventually round into a 35-40pt guy at worst.

Everyone wanted a replacement for Hamrlik, well... There he was, and 14 years younger.

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03-31-2012, 11:53 AM
  #50
MM425
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
We're complaining about the returns mostly. And hopefully the new management will be the one stealing good young players away for nothing in the future, and our coach will have the good sense to use them properly. Hopefully the next coach has a secure enough spot that he can do what's best for the team beyond the very next game.

How do you explain that with one of the best drafting record in the NHL over the past 10 years - certainly top 5, possibly even the best - we have so little to show for it ?
I think we have had a solid drafting and player development record over the past 10 years... I would not call it the best or even top 5 just because I think something like that is difficult to quantify.

Circumstances of the time lead to trades more than anything else. Grabovski and Sergei were branded headcases by the rest of the league because of their actions in MTL and thus, the return we got reflected that, for example. The point is you can dissect trades in hindsight until the cows come home. Every team in the league has moves like this.

I 100% agree on a new management and coaching philosophy though. I think that we need a coach in particular who succeeds in getting the most out of each player individually rather than sticking to a rigid system. A Dan Bylsma style coach could do wonders for this team IMO.

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