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Why do habs lose so many good young players before they're good?

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03-31-2012, 10:57 AM
  #51
smon
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
This trade seriously has the potential to end up as one of the worst trades in Habs history. McDonagh is very rapidly turning into the 1-2# defenseman we all knew he'd become, already putting up 30 points in his sophomore season. He'll eventually round into a 35-40pt guy at worst.

Everyone wanted a replacement for Hamrlik, well... There he was, and 14 years younger.
The Gazette recently claimed that the trade happened because McDonagh had a poor game when Gainey went for a visit. Timmins was very much against it. Unfortunate if true.

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03-31-2012, 11:11 AM
  #52
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It's called "player development".. Habs have not been very good at it..

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03-31-2012, 11:30 AM
  #53
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IMO every player represents a unique situation.

Sergei is the recent example most often sited. The way I see things, the organization was trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. They decided to try to improve SK's 5v5 play by taking him off the PP, and making him earn every minute. This just frustrated the player. I think he would've benefited from similar treatment to Desharnais - good linemates, offensive situations, time on special teams. I know you can only put so many players in that set of circumstances, but IMO SK would've been worth it. At least until he got expensive.

With Grabovski, I think he just never got a fair shake. Posters cite his attitude problems and cockiness... but is it being cocky, if you're actually that good? With hindsight, it looks like Grabovski's sense of entitlement was justified, his talent actually did merit the ice time he wanted.

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03-31-2012, 11:31 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by smon View Post
The Gazette recently claimed that the trade happened because McDonagh had a poor game when Gainey went for a visit. Timmins was very much against it. Unfortunate if true.
I refuse to believe that. That would be more than unfortunate, it would be really disturbing to learn that a GM could be so recklessly stupid.

But at the same time, it's hard to see a reasoning behind giving up a 1st round prospect for such a bad contract as Gomez.. and that explanation is as good as any.

I really wish I knew the truth behind everything that's happened since the 09 summer. Who is responsible for what. How did Gainey leave the team in the hands of Gauthier ? WHYYYY!

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03-31-2012, 11:35 AM
  #55
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Why do habs lose so many good young players before they're good?

That's a three word answer:

Gainey and Gauthier.

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03-31-2012, 11:39 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MM425 View Post
I think we have had a solid drafting and player development record over the past 10 years... I would not call it the best or even top 5 just because I think something like that is difficult to quantify.

Circumstances of the time lead to trades more than anything else. Grabovski and Sergei were branded headcases by the rest of the league because of their actions in MTL and thus, the return we got reflected that, for example. The point is you can dissect trades in hindsight until the cows come home. Every team in the league has moves like this.

I 100% agree on a new management and coaching philosophy though. I think that we need a coach in particular who succeeds in getting the most out of each player individually rather than sticking to a rigid system. A Dan Bylsma style coach could do wonders for this team IMO.
Drafting yes, we've been great.
Player development however, quite bad.
And it's really not difficult to quantify, you just have to compare the draft of other teams.

The problem isn't SK and Grabo being head cases, the problem is we let them become head cases. That falls into the player development problem. We could have handle them differently.

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03-31-2012, 11:44 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
SK has 43 points with a week left, that's not 1st line production on any team.
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Sure thing muffin.
You two must be Gainey and Gauthier coming on this board disguised as HF posters so you can justify your ridiculous trades.

Sergei may or may not be a 1st liner but he's definitely a 2nd liner on most teams in this league and only numbskulls like your two heros give away 2nd liners for nothing.

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03-31-2012, 11:47 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The problem isn't SK and Grabo being head cases, the problem is we let them become head cases. That falls into the player development problem. We could have handle them differently.
It seems to me that Grabovski and SK both ended up as useful NHL'ers. The fact that it's with other organizations is not the fault of the folks in charge of development - their job is to produce good players, which they did. That the Habs didn't exploit their skills at the NHL level is the fault of the big league management team, not development.

I'd argue that neither player is a "head case" to the point where it hampers their ability to be good NHL'ers.

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03-31-2012, 11:49 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
IMO every player represents a unique situation.

Sergei is the recent example most often sited. The way I see things, the organization was trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. They decided to try to improve SK's 5v5 play by taking him off the PP, and making him earn every minute. This just frustrated the player. I think he would've benefited from similar treatment to Desharnais - good linemates, offensive situations, time on special teams. I know you can only put so many players in that set of circumstances, but IMO SK would've been worth it. At least until he got expensive.

With Grabovski, I think he just never got a fair shake. Posters cite his attitude problems and cockiness... but is it being cocky, if you're actually that good? With hindsight, it looks like Grabovski's sense of entitlement was justified, his talent actually did merit the ice time he wanted.
Grabovski was a numbers game. We already had Koivu and Plekanec, Lapierre was turning into a solid 3rd line C at the time and then the habs decided they wanted to acquire another offensive center(first going after Sundin and then after Lang) after finishing first. Grabovski was so low on the depth chart was already 24.

I agree with the Sergei one though.

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03-31-2012, 11:50 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I refuse to believe that. That would be more than unfortunate, it would be really disturbing to learn that a GM could be so recklessly stupid.

But at the same time, it's hard to see a reasoning behind giving up a 1st round prospect for such a bad contract as Gomez.. and that explanation is as good as any.

I really wish I knew the truth behind everything that's happened since the 09 summer. Who is responsible for what. How did Gainey leave the team in the hands of Gauthier ? WHYYYY!
I definitely agree. I found the online article...

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McDonagh had three solid seasons as a stay-at-home defenceman at Wisconsin but, as the story goes, he had one not-so-impressive night and Gainey happened to be in attendance. Trevor Timmins, the man who directs the Canadiens' amateur scouting, pleaded for the team to keep Mc-Donagh but he was overruled.
http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...812/story.html

The Gomez trade was hilariously bad because of trading McDonagh. But frankly, choosing Gomez over Koivu was in itself a mistake, too. Leaving aside Koivu's outperformance of Gomez since 09, but even prior to 09, Gomez's career PPG was basically the same as Koivu and Gomez ate up quite a bit more cap space.

I think the simplest explanation is that Gomez was a panic plan B instead of Lecavalier. Plan Bs usually don't work out too well...although the Plan B for Kovalev, Gionta, actually worked out.

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03-31-2012, 11:55 AM
  #61
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The reason for many of these trades has been over simplified by many posters in this thread.

Kostitsyn bros., Higgins, Lapierre, Ryder, Latendresse, Ribeiro all had either serious off ice issues and/or poor relations with the coaching staff due to things like work ethic and/or conditioning. Montreal devours players such as these because of the fishbowl atmosphere that they live and play in. The xenophobic media don't help by undermining the coaching staff by putting brats like Ribeiro, Latendresse and Lapierre on a pedestal

The end result is a player who ends up going through the motions on the ice due to a feeling of self entitlement, thus decreasing their trade value in the process as the coach doesn't have any other option but to reduce their ice time or sit them in the press box.

I am not letting management off the hook because the problem is that they hang on to these players too long until their respective values are so diminished that the return is rarely substantial. These depreciated values combined with GM's who are unable to get fair value via the trade route due to incompetency has led to the current results that we are seeing today.

Not every player is able to play and thrive in a market like Montreal.The onus is on the scouting staff to recognize this and narrow their selections down to players that they believe already posses the inner fortitude and strength of will to succeed in Montreal. I suppose nobody could have foreseen Higgins' future struggles with substance abuse but there were red flags with most of the other players that I listed.

P.S. This is the reason that I don't want any part of Grigorenko........don't take that apple Adam.

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03-31-2012, 11:57 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Captain Saku View Post
This is a myth. Seriously give me names. Who really left and became a star elsewhere? Leclair is the last one I can think of. Grabovski might be considered as well but we didn't need him and we have better centers now.

Ryder NOTHING IN RETURN
Ribeiro NOTHING IN RETURN
Latendresse POULIOT
D'agostini PAlushaj....lol
Pouliot NOTHING IN RETURN
Akost A 2nd round pick - wow Gainey and Gauthier must have done a dance after that one
Sergei Nothing IN return

Who else?

O'Byrne Hey look we got something for him Bournival
Streit NOTHING IN RETURN
Beauchemin NOTHING IN RETURN
Perezhogin NOTHING IN RETURN
Hainsay NOTHING IN RETURN
Grabsovsky a 2nd & Pateryn.... the 2nd was pi$$ed away let's wait & see about Pateryn
McDonagh WORSE THAN NOTHING IN RETURN
Boullion NOTHING IN RETURN
Lapierre a 5th
Higgins PART OF THE WORSE THAN NOTHING


Now those players plus the ones you mentioned are not superstars except for one but most of them are better than alot of the players we have on our team. Couple that with the fact that we got nothing or next to nothing for most of them and you start to get an idea of why we're a lottery pick team.

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03-31-2012, 11:58 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I suppose nobody could have foreseen Higgins' future struggles with substance abuse...
I still have never seen a legitimate source confirming this rumour. It has just been repeated enough that it now passes for truth.

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03-31-2012, 12:01 PM
  #64
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How could we get anything in return for Perezhogin? He left for the KHL.

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03-31-2012, 12:01 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Grabovski was a numbers game. We already had Koivu and Plekanec, Lapierre was turning into a solid 3rd line C at the time and then the habs decided they wanted to acquire another offensive center(first going after Sundin and then after Lang) after finishing first. Grabovski was so low on the depth chart was already 24.
IIRC, Lang had already spent some time at the wing. This is where Detroit gets it right - if they have a surplus of talented players at any position (usually at center), they just move them around.

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03-31-2012, 12:05 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I still have never seen a legitimate source confirming this rumour. It has just been repeated enough that it now passes for truth.
He was in the NHL program for substance abuse.

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03-31-2012, 12:11 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I refuse to believe that. That would be more than unfortunate, it would be really disturbing to learn that a GM could be so recklessly stupid.
You do realize you're talking about Gainey.

I respect him as a player but as a GM he is just slightly better than Houle or Milbury and probably not as bright as those two.

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03-31-2012, 12:13 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
This trade seriously has the potential to end up as one of the worst trades in Habs history. McDonagh is very rapidly turning into the 1-2# defenseman we all knew he'd become, already putting up 30 points in his sophomore season. He'll eventually round into a 35-40pt guy at worst.

Everyone wanted a replacement for Hamrlik, well... There he was, and 14 years younger.
I remember being in a clear minority in supporting McDonagh during his last season in Wisconsin. Many here were referring to him as a bust because his offensive numbers weren't improving and they didn't like his WJC.

That being said, I never expected him to be a #1 type d-man in the NHL and my opinion hasn't changed at all. he is what I thought he would be.....a 30-40 pt shut down d-man.

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03-31-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
You do realize you're talking about Gainey.

I respect him as a player but as a GM he is just slightly better than Houle or Milbury and probably not as bright as those two.
Gainey is much brighter than either one of those meat sticks. He just didn't understand how to properly handle his hockey assets. Brian Burke is a lawyer and he hasn't seen the playoffs in four seasons. Does this mean that Burke is stupid......don't answer that

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03-31-2012, 12:16 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
How could we get anything in return for Perezhogin? He left for the KHL.
Instead of being the village idiot of the league, Gainey could have offered Perezhogin to Sather for Gomez. Glenn would have taken and thought himself lucky to get rid of him. Word was out the year of that trade that Gomez was finished.

Hell, at the time of signing the contract everyone knew Gomez wasn't worth that money - everyone except Sather and Gainey.

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03-31-2012, 12:19 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
He was in the NHL program for substance abuse.
Link please?

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03-31-2012, 12:22 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I remember being in a clear minority in supporting McDonagh during his last season in Wisconsin. Many here were referring to him as a bust because his offensive numbers weren't improving and they didn't like his WJC.

That being said, I never expected him to be a #1 type d-man in the NHL and my opinion hasn't changed at all. he is what I thought he would be.....a 30-40 pt shut down d-man.
I remember that. I had no clue how good he was because I had not seen him play but I remember the opinions weren't glowing on him back in the summer of 09.

Of course that doesn't excuse trading a 1st round prospect for such a horrible contract as Gomez when it's actually the rangers who should have been compensating us for giving them the room to sign Gaborik.

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03-31-2012, 12:30 PM
  #73
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
It seems to me that Grabovski and SK both ended up as useful NHL'ers. The fact that it's with other organizations is not the fault of the folks in charge of development - their job is to produce good players, which they did. That the Habs didn't exploit their skills at the NHL level is the fault of the big league management team, not development.

I'd argue that neither player is a "head case" to the point where it hampers their ability to be good NHL'ers.
Development doesn't halt once youngsters reach the NHL. It should start right from when you draft them up until they establish themselves as regular Nhlers, and even then, sometimes longer (like PK who's a regular Nhler but still needs proper development).
You don't have to only employ one person for the job either. You can have one in charge of Canada junior guys, one for the US, one for Europe, another for the AHL prospects, another for the NHL guys, etc...

I don't know I there is a limit to how many scouts or experts a team can employ, I doubt it, but the more personnel, the better.

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03-31-2012, 12:36 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by smon View Post
I definitely agree. I found the online article...


http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...812/story.html
I believed you, but I refuse to believe that whoever wrote this has the whole story. This just seems so hard to believe, to me anyway. Yet it would explain a lot.. mmm

Quote:
The Gomez trade was hilariously bad because of trading McDonagh. But frankly, choosing Gomez over Koivu was in itself a mistake, too. Leaving aside Koivu's outperformance of Gomez since 09, but even prior to 09, Gomez's career PPG was basically the same as Koivu and Gomez ate up quite a bit more cap space.
There's McDo, and Koivu.. and I'll raise you helping a direct competitor in the east by taking their trash and allowing them to sign Gaborik.

It's been discussed to death but I still marvel at how bad the trade was. And it's not even like it's one of those trades that just look bad in hindsight but made sense at the time. It was a truly horrible move from the get go even though there were actually quite a few people who defended the move back then. I think most of the people who did only defended it because of what Gionta said when he signed here (nvm the fact it's a bunch of baloney).

Anyway truly mind boggling.

Quote:
I think the simplest explanation is that Gomez was a panic plan B instead of Lecavalier. Plan Bs usually don't work out too well...although the Plan B for Kovalev, Gionta, actually worked out.
I think because of the bad centennial year, Gainey had decided that Koivu wasn't the guy and thought he could find better at any cost and no matter who it would be. It's known that Lecavalier was his first plan. What if the Gomez plan had failed... would he have traded Subban and Price for drury ?

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03-31-2012, 12:43 PM
  #75
The Price is Right
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You guys are all saying management is poor and things like that but same thing is happening. Why is Leblanc, Palushaj playing in the NHL? They should be in Hamilton...

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