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Old
03-31-2012, 11:20 PM
  #601
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Cammalleri what a shot.

That deal still makes me
Cammy and Bourque have the same amount of goals for the season. Cammy in less games, but he's getting paid over 6M a year to struggle to reach 20 goals when he does nothing else.

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03-31-2012, 11:21 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Lamenting the loss of another superstar 3rd liner? Hab fans never do that!
I'm sure Flames fans are very disappointed they lost their superstar 4th liner.


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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Cammy and Bourque have the same amount of goals for the season. Cammy in less games, but he's getting paid over 6M a year to struggle to reach 20 goals when he does nothing else.
Bourque has 8pts in 35games with the lottery pick Habs making 3.5mil.
Cammalleri had 22pts in 38games with the lottery pick Habs making 6mil.

Value wise, Cammy is sadly better even with his crap season.

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03-31-2012, 11:28 PM
  #603
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Anyone else find it funny that Halak got pity because Price was always the 'Habs' guy' but now in St.Louis he is in the exact opposite position being the 'Blues' guy' in front of Elliott who was benched in favour of him for 2 straight games now despite getting 3 shutouts in a row.
yes.

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03-31-2012, 11:37 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Cammy and Bourque have the same amount of goals for the season. Cammy in less games, but he's getting paid over 6M a year to struggle to reach 20 goals when he does nothing else.
Assists no longer matter? Cammalleri leaves him well in his dust for pts

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03-31-2012, 11:39 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Anyone else find it funny that Halak got pity because Price was always the 'Habs' guy' but now in St.Louis he is in the exact opposite position being the 'Blues' guy' in front of Elliott who was benched in favour of him for 2 straight games now despite getting 3 shutouts in a row.
I mostly think it's Hitchcock being sure that both of his goalies are ready come playoff time. At one point, who do you start? Elliott who is still a mystery to this day as far as how the heck has he became so good? Or Halak who has that playoff experience? At one point, I guesse you start Elliott....but Halak won't be too far behind if Elliott just kinda shows some little inconsistency. Somehow, we know that both goalies will be used during those playoffs.

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03-31-2012, 11:41 PM
  #606
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I mostly think it's Hitchcock being sure that both of his goalies are ready come playoff time. At one point, who do you start? Elliott who is still a mystery to this day as far as how the heck has he became so good? Or Halak who has that playoff experience? At one point, I guesse you start Elliott....but Halak won't be too far behind if Elliott just kinda shows some little inconsistency. Somehow, we know that both goalies will be used during those playoffs.
I think they'll start with Halak first but if he loses game 1 I don't think he starts again.

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03-31-2012, 11:46 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Bourque has 8pts in 35games with the lottery pick Habs making 3.5mil.
Cammalleri had 22pts in 38games with the lottery pick Habs making 6mil.

Value wise, Cammy is sadly better even with his crap season.
I can't disagree here but absolute value matters less when you are talking about a signficant cap hit vs a marginal one. Cammalleri is without a doubt a better player, but he was paid to be more than that and was underachieving to the point of sinking the team.

Bourque is a 3rd liner on a good team with low drive who can't pass. But it's also unfair to judge him as this bad when every single offensive player outside of one line has posted among career lows since the coaching change.

There was a reason we got a 2nd pick and a low drafted but interesting prospect. The trade was never about Bourque, it was about Bourque's contract, and that should be obvious.

Of all the things to regret about this season, the Cammalleri trade is not one of them for me. And going into the season Cammy was one of my favourite players, but like Gomez, he was only regressing. In Calgary he's in a better place and is still not the 40 goalscorer people are pretending he is.

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04-01-2012, 12:33 AM
  #608
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I can't disagree here but absolute value matters less when you are talking about a signficant cap hit vs a marginal one. Cammalleri is without a doubt a better player, but he was paid to be more than that and was underachieving to the point of sinking the team.

Bourque is a 3rd liner on a good team with low drive who can't pass. But it's also unfair to judge him as this bad when every single offensive player outside of one line has posted among career lows since the coaching change.

There was a reason we got a 2nd pick and a low drafted but interesting prospect. The trade was never about Bourque, it was about Bourque's contract, and that should be obvious.

Of all the things to regret about this season, the Cammalleri trade is not one of them for me. And going into the season Cammy was one of my favourite players, but like Gomez, he was only regressing. In Calgary he's in a better place and is still not the 40 goalscorer people are pretending he is.
My issue is taking back a worse contract. Cammalleri only has 2 years left on his deal which has him 32. I'd rather have a shorter term at higher cap hit than half the cap at twice the term. If getting traded doesn't do it, what motivation does he have in the future to do well? He's set contract wise. I wish Bourque showed anything that would suggest he's a 3rd liner with us. He looks like a 3.5mil fourth liner. People can diminish Cammalleri's play with the team as much as they want but he's still a legit top 6 player and producing like one with the Flames.

Who's pretending he's a 40g scorer... Really, Gomez comparison? You realize Cammy isn't even 30 yet. If anything, Bourque is closer to showing signs of major regression. 0.79pts/game, 0.63pts/game, 0.33pts/game

What I don't understand is people acting like Cammalleri continuing his modest 7g/14pts in last 18game pace with the Flames isn't realistic. It's the same pace he had with the Habs in the previous 2 regular seasons. Be honest, will it amaze you if Cammalleri puts up 60pts next season?

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04-01-2012, 12:44 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I can't disagree here but absolute value matters less when you are talking about a signficant cap hit vs a marginal one. Cammalleri is without a doubt a better player, but he was paid to be more than that and was underachieving to the point of sinking the team.

Bourque is a 3rd liner on a good team with low drive who can't pass. But it's also unfair to judge him as this bad when every single offensive player outside of one line has posted among career lows since the coaching change.

There was a reason we got a 2nd pick and a low drafted but interesting prospect. The trade was never about Bourque, it was about Bourque's contract, and that should be obvious.

Of all the things to regret about this season, the Cammalleri trade is not one of them for me. And going into the season Cammy was one of my favourite players, but like Gomez, he was only regressing. In Calgary he's in a better place and is still not the 40 goalscorer people are pretending he is.
After seeing the tolerance for Gomez and his underachieving for so much longer at a higher price, I don't think it's reasonable to assume Cammalleri was dealt primarily as a salary dump after a slow start to the season (after being by far the leading scorer of the previous two playoffs, no less).

The fact that PG admitted that he had been exploring options as early as a month before, but obviously well after the season had started (Cammy with an "A" on his jersey, mind you), means that his salary/cap/role etc were already accounted/planned for heading into the start of the season, and something developed in the mean time. That much should be obvious. It's too bad PG got hornswaggled into thinking he was getting roughly an equivalent player "overall" who was much cheaper and might just "need a change of scenery".

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Old
04-01-2012, 12:46 AM
  #610
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Assists no longer matter? Cammalleri leaves him well in his dust for pts
cold hard facts are, MONTREAL couldn't afford Cammy anymore....

end of story ..

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04-01-2012, 03:10 AM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I'm sure Flames fans are very disappointed they lost their superstar 4th liner.




Bourque has 8pts in 35games with the lottery pick Habs making 3.5mil.
Cammalleri had 22pts in 38games with the lottery pick Habs making 6mil.

Value wise, Cammy is sadly better even with his crap season.
Brand new team + terrible coach = instant chemistry!

Sometimes I wonder if the so called "hockey fans" here actually have a clue about sports. Did you not realize Bourque was slumping aswell? Did you think we would have got him if he was on fire and "untouchable"? Only on these forums do people think swapping a massively overpaid floater will return a player who will not only out produce him but also get you assets on top. What world do you live in?

Oh thats right you are one of the group that thinks cammy was wanted all over the league and worth his weight in gold, we could have got crosby for him but all we got was Bourque! Arrg.

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04-01-2012, 07:30 AM
  #612
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Brand new team + terrible coach = instant chemistry!

Sometimes I wonder if the so called "hockey fans" here actually have a clue about sports. Did you not realize Bourque was slumping aswell? Did you think we would have got him if he was on fire and "untouchable"? Only on these forums do people think swapping a massively overpaid floater will return a player who will not only out produce him but also get you assets on top. What world do you live in?

Oh thats right you are one of the group that thinks cammy was wanted all over the league and worth his weight in gold, we could have got crosby for him but all we got was Bourque! Arrg.
Well you do believe that somehow Gauthier had in mind something better than what we're seeing. He surely thought that being traded for the first time, like it happens to most people mostly the ones WE trade, it gets your game going. So maybe we were not going to get Stamkos, but would have been nice to get something more than what we're seeing now. Don't think you can blame people for being dissapointed. Now, should he be put on the same train than Gomez? Of course not. But if the guy doesn't get it going real soon next year 'cause most of your analysis about him is based on the fact that we're eliminated so he doesn't have the motivation, well chances are he will be put on train at some point.

I think that the "thinking" behind it was not bad, as far as becoming bigger. Yet, if they had make their research, they would have been told that as big as he is, he is not playing that way. Which always comes down to the same thing. It's not how big you are. It's how big you are playing. We all want this team to be bigger. But not creampuff bigger. But he will be given a chance for sure.

And without exagerrating, you do know that if he would have produced more than he does right now, there wouldn't be any complaining. Yet, it's not even about that, it's about his level of competition as well. Add everything and you get why people are dissapointing.

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04-01-2012, 09:35 AM
  #613
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Brand new team + terrible coach = instant chemistry!

Sometimes I wonder if the so called "hockey fans" here actually have a clue about sports. Did you not realize Bourque was slumping aswell? Did you think we would have got him if he was on fire and "untouchable"? Only on these forums do people think swapping a massively overpaid floater will return a player who will not only out produce him but also get you assets on top. What world do you live in?

Oh thats right you are one of the group that thinks cammy was wanted all over the league and worth his weight in gold, we could have got crosby for him but all we got was Bourque! Arrg.
Its one thing if it was a 10 game slump, its not, its getting close to 40 games now.

He doesnt score
He isnt the big physical presence we were told he was, he looks afraid to hit due to the suspensions.
He looks uninterested and invisible.

The effort level on Bourque is less than even what we got at the worst of times with Kovalev and Kostitsyn.

We had a game in Calgary, a game he should have been highly motivated to show up his former team to prove them wrong for trading him, and he was a complete no show. Thats a huge red flag to me. If you cant self-motivate for that game, when can you?


He's a turd, and no amount of polishing will change that

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04-01-2012, 09:49 AM
  #614
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Cammalleri what a shot.

That deal still makes me
It was another bad trade by PG... I said it then, I'm saying it now. Isn't it strange that both Cam and Pleks had babies this year and they both struggled? And how do the fans react? TRADE THEM! TRADE THEM NOW! Sometimes I feel like our fans deserve PG...who is just as tempermental and volatile as them.

PG is Houle-esque in his deals. Lapierre deal was pathetic. We NEED a player like him...but he was discarded for a frigging 5th round pick. Kaberle deal atrocious....now we have to figure out how to get rid of his AND Gomez's contract. Cammy deal another dumb one...we get a player who's less effective (although I think Bourque is a better player than he has shown us this year) for the same total money...so we basicallly got a 2nd and an OK prospect for Cammy.

Awful.

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04-01-2012, 10:40 AM
  #615
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This is the sum of the Cammalleri and AK46 trades:

To NHL:
Michael Cammalleri
Andrei Kostitsyn

To Habs:
2nd round pick (Calgary) 2013, that could be the 31st overall pick.
2nd round pick (Nashville) 2013, will probably be ~50-55th overall
Patrick Holland
Rene Bourque

When you look at it in totality, it looks like Gauthier was playing janitor. The end result is that the next GM will have more liberty to put his stamp on the team. Bourque pretty much replaces AK46, and thus effectively we traded Cammalleri for his cap space, Holland, and a pair of 2nd round picks.

Cammalleri's cap space was needed to pay the salary increases of Subban, Price, and Pacioretty this summer. Gomez is the only untradeable player on this team, and Gionta s injured and good value, so Cammalleri was traded.

The people saying "we could have gotten more" are arguing from a basis of science fiction. I've asked for examples of players similar to Cammalleri getting a lot more on the market and I got no examples. Look at how little Lupul was worth on the trade market.

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04-01-2012, 10:41 AM
  #616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Brand new team + terrible coach = instant chemistry!
Well Cammalleri managed to do it Calgary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Sometimes I wonder if the so called "hockey fans" here actually have a clue about sports. Did you not realize Bourque was slumping aswell? Did you think we would have got him if he was on fire and "untouchable"? Only on these forums do people think swapping a massively overpaid floater will return a player who will not only out produce him but also get you assets on top. What world do you live in?

Oh thats right you are one of the group that thinks cammy was wanted all over the league and worth his weight in gold, we could have got crosby for him but all we got was Bourque! Arrg.

What indication is there that this is a 'slump' and not what we'll see for the remainder of his tenure? I can make a sarcastic pseudo math equation too:

long term deal with a lot of money + bad team + motivation issues = return to contract year production!

Is there a chance that this is just a slump and Gauthier's amazing foresight will kick in next season? Sure, but there is nothing that even remotely shows us this may happen. You can demean Cammalleri to being a 3rd liner/"a massively overpaid floater", it's your opinion. However, if Bourque continues his 4th liner/bench player play even that hyperbolic statement won't make it a good trade.

Where on earth has he shown he'll outproduced Cammalleri...for someone that's so quick to insult you sure love to play off your opinions as fact. "Massively overpaid floater", whether you want to admit it or not, is a description that can fit Bourque's play this season. One that hasn't even produced a fraction as much despite being put in the same situation and given ample opportunity. Assuming you do live in Calgary, haven't you seen Stajan and Hagman? I'm sure a couple 'Flames fans' were saying the same thing and expected them so return to form. Wonder what happened...

You are entitled to claim Bourque will return to his 50pt form but if you can't even acknowledge that he can very well continue this current season's play then there's no point in a discussion.

You're missing the point. Good GMs don't trade players at their absolute lowest value. Saying this is the best return he could have gotten is like saying Niniimaa was the best return Gainey could have gotten for Ribeiro. If the best you can get is a cap dump and a 2nd, you are better off waiting and hoping Cammalleri returns to form production wise.

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04-01-2012, 10:49 AM
  #617
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post

You are entitled to claim Bourque will return to his 50pt form but if you can't even acknowledge that he can very well continue this current season's play then there's no point in a discussion.

You're missing the point. Good GMs don't trade players at their absolute lowest value. Saying this is the best return he could have gotten is like saying Niniimaa was the best return Gainey could have gotten for Ribeiro. If the best you can get is a cap dump and a 2nd, you are better off waiting and hoping Cammalleri returns to form production wise.
1) Bourque is making 3.5 million, get a grip. It's only a million or so above the league average, and he's an average player, so his contract is bad but hardly an albatross.

2) We got good value for Cammalleri.

Do you have any examples of Cammalleri-type players getting better deals for their former teams than we got? No, you don't.

3) Cammalleri's value could have dropped much further. Gauthier had a good offer and he took it, it's better than waiting until the deadline and risking losing everything if Cammalleri gets an injury.

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04-01-2012, 10:50 AM
  #618
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You're missing the point. Good GMs don't trade players at their absolute lowest value. Saying this is the best return he could have gotten is like saying Niniimaa was the best return Gainey could have gotten for Ribeiro. If the best you can get is a cap dump and a 2nd, you are better off waiting and hoping Cammalleri returns to form production wise.
Bingo.

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04-01-2012, 11:02 AM
  #619
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You're missing the point. Good GMs don't trade players at their absolute lowest value. Saying this is the best return he could have gotten is like saying Niniimaa was the best return Gainey could have gotten for Ribeiro. If the best you can get is a cap dump and a 2nd, you are better off waiting and hoping Cammalleri returns to form production wise.
This. People act like a GM has a gun to his head and has to make the deal right then and there. If you don't like the deal, then keep the player until you get a deal you like...or maybe that player gets his **** together and improves his play.

I hate the "Well, that's the best he could have done" as if there was no other option than trading a player for scraps. KEEP HIM then!

Howson didn't get a deal he liked for Nash so he decided to wait until the summer. Compare that to Gauthier who would have made the deal in March and would have gotten back ****.

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04-01-2012, 11:06 AM
  #620
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This. People act like a GM has a gun to his head and has to make the deal right then and there. If you don't like the deal, then keep the player until you get a deal you like...or maybe that player gets his **** together and improves his play.

I hate the "Well, that's the best he could have done" as if there was no other option than trading a player for scraps. KEEP HIM then!

Howson didn't get a deal he liked for Nash so he decided to wait until the summer. Compare that to Gauthier who would have made the deal in March and would have gotten back ****.
There is a gun to his head.

The longer he waits, the greater the probability that Cammalleri's trade value would have dropped from passable to unpassable. If Cammalleri had gotten injured, or had continued to slump, both extremely likely scenarios, we would haave gotten nothing. No 2nd round pick. No Patrick Holland.

And a very hard time signing Subban, Price, and Pacioretty to long-term deals this summer.

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04-01-2012, 11:11 AM
  #621
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I'm willing to wait and see how Bourque does next season before discarding him ever being good here. He was a useful player for Calgary before this season - lets hope he gets his game straightened out in time for next season.

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04-01-2012, 11:30 AM
  #622
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1) Bourque is making 3.5 million, get a grip. It's only a million or so above the league average, and he's an average player, so his contract is bad but hardly an albatross.

2) We got good value for Cammalleri.

Do you have any examples of Cammalleri-type players getting better deals for their former teams than we got? No, you don't.

3) Cammalleri's value could have dropped much further. Gauthier had a good offer and he took it, it's better than waiting until the deadline and risking losing everything if Cammalleri gets an injury.
1)You're right, it's not albatross. But if he keeps the 8pts in 35GP pace, it's still bad, and one can argue, worse than Cammy's. At least Cammy had prove to be a PO monster here. But yes, his contract is not in the Gomez range. That doesn't mean it's not bad.

2)No we didn't. Decent, mediocre, perhaps, not good. Gaustad fetched Buffalo a 1st round pick. You're talking about a bottom line player that has not been particularly good in the POs before.

3)If that's the best offer Gauthier could have for Cammy, then might as well keep him because you know he can give you some more, you know he's a big performer in the POs, and you also know the team has been playing way much better since that horrible start (12-7-5). So you stay patient, you still have good depth on the wings with Cammy-Gio-AK-MaxPac-Cole.


What I personally think is that Gauthier knew he was going to get rid of AK, and that's why he looked at Bourque. A similar type, with a similar cap, but signed for multiple years. I think he was going to try to find Cammy's replacement on the open market.


In any event, the only way this becomes a solid trade for us is if Holland becomes a beast and/or the 2nd round pick selection becomes a great player.

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04-01-2012, 11:30 AM
  #623
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1) Bourque is making 3.5 million, get a grip. It's only a million or so above the league average, and he's an average player, so his contract is bad but hardly an albatross.

2) We got good value for Cammalleri.

Do you have any examples of Cammalleri-type players getting better deals for their former teams than we got? No, you don't.

3) Cammalleri's value could have dropped much further. Gauthier had a good offer and he took it, it's better than waiting until the deadline and risking losing everything if Cammalleri gets an injury.
1) 4 years left on his contract the bigger issue making 3.5mil. If it was same term as Cammy then it'd make more sense to me as a cap dump. The new GM will be stuck with this contract indefinitely. Notice how you need to assume he'll improve to being an average player just to say his contract is bad. I hope he can do it.

2) Well Cammalleri returned a 1st+ coming off a 47point season back in 2008. But if you want to use contract as a reason:

D Marek Zidlicky at 4.0(2013) returned Nick Palmieri, Stephane Veilleux, 2nd (2012) + 3rd (2013)

C Antoine Vermette at 3.75(2015) returned 2nd(2012) + 5th(2013)

Worse players, long term contracts.

3) If the best assets you can return for him is a 2nd rounder, you take that risk. What exactly do we lose if he got injured...a 2nd rounder? That's a pretty good risk to take if it means getting a better return for Cammy.

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04-01-2012, 11:42 AM
  #624
Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Well Cammalleri managed to do it Calgary.




What indication is there that this is a 'slump' and not what we'll see for the remainder of his tenure? I can make a sarcastic pseudo math equation too:

long term deal with a lot of money + bad team + motivation issues = return to contract year production!

Is there a chance that this is just a slump and Gauthier's amazing foresight will kick in next season? Sure, but there is nothing that even remotely shows us this may happen. You can demean Cammalleri to being a 3rd liner/"a massively overpaid floater", it's your opinion. However, if Bourque continues his 4th liner/bench player play even that hyperbolic statement won't make it a good trade.

Where on earth has he shown he'll outproduced Cammalleri...for someone that's so quick to insult you sure love to play off your opinions as fact. "Massively overpaid floater", whether you want to admit it or not, is a description that can fit Bourque's play this season. One that hasn't even produced a fraction as much despite being put in the same situation and given ample opportunity. Assuming you do live in Calgary, haven't you seen Stajan and Hagman? I'm sure a couple 'Flames fans' were saying the same thing and expected them so return to form. Wonder what happened...

You are entitled to claim Bourque will return to his 50pt form but if you can't even acknowledge that he can very well continue this current season's play then there's no point in a discussion.

You're missing the point. Good GMs don't trade players at their absolute lowest value. Saying this is the best return he could have gotten is like saying Niniimaa was the best return Gainey could have gotten for Ribeiro. If the best you can get is a cap dump and a 2nd, you are better off waiting and hoping Cammalleri returns to form production wise.
You wote: "... If the best you can get is a cap dump and a 2nd, you are better off waiting and hoping Cammalleri returns to form production wise."

You forgot Holland.

The players, management and broadcasters from the 10 clubs in the Western Conference of the Western Hockey League voted Holland as the 3rd best defensive forward, the 3rd best skater, the most underrated player, 5th hardest shot and 4th most improved player.

I never saw him play but obviously, he is more than a throw-in.

Side note: Brendan Gallagher MVP

Ref.: http://www.tri-cityherald.com/2012/0...#storylink=cpy

About the trade...
  • 2013, according to Timmins, will be a good draft and we are chatting about a potential 35th to 45th overall selection here… imo it is a very good pick.
  • The only times Cammalleri outscored Bourque was during two of his contract years - the rest is all Bourque.
  • Besides scoring, Cammalleri did not bring anything of value: no strong backchecking, he stayed in the perimeter, no physicality, questionable attitude...

=> If Bourque gives us 20 goals while playing on the 3rd line (alongside Eller and Moen - that would be a solid shutdown line) next season, I would be a happy fan.

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04-01-2012, 11:45 AM
  #625
hockeyfan2k11
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
There is a gun to his head.

The longer he waits, the greater the probability that Cammalleri's trade value would have dropped from passable to unpassable. If Cammalleri had gotten injured, or had continued to slump, both extremely likely scenarios, we would haave gotten nothing. No 2nd round pick. No Patrick Holland.

And a very hard time signing Subban, Price, and Pacioretty to long-term deals this summer.
You can't complain about Cammy's salary hampering the team when we took on 4.25M of Kaberle's and Bourque's is at 3.5M.

Here's a thought. Why not get Cammy some size on his line and pair him with a centerman who can get him the puck? It's really that simple.

You'd think Cammy was the only one dimensional big salary player that was slumping.

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