HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Why do habs lose so many good young players before they're good?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-31-2012, 07:01 PM
  #101
Andy
Registered User
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
We didn't push them to that point. SK got sent down after a poor year and a mediocre camp and took his ball and went home. Grabs bailed because he was a healthy scratch on a first place team.
He also threatened to go the KHL. He also refused to report until Gainey had to have a talk with him and convince him to report. People forget about that.

That being said, it ended up being a bad deal.

Andy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2012, 07:03 PM
  #102
NewEraGM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
I could list all the young players lost and are performing remarkably well; and we gave them away for almost free.

In last ten years, We have drafted very well, and found some real gem out of draft; yet, lot of young players are flourishing and making their mark with other teams

So, is this something that new management should look at and handle better? I really would like to see home grown prospects doing good with my team and not the leafs or the rangers...
Because if they don't score a hat trick in the first game, people like the OP and the media start questioning their play which only adds more pressure. It could honestly be suffocating for a young player. Just let them play for 2 years without judging them as a player...

NewEraGM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2012, 07:38 PM
  #103
smon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
To be fair, McDonough's stock was quite low at the time. I remember reading that Timmins was very disappointed that he had shown basically no development since being drafted. As for Gomez, it looks worse but could anybody have predicted that he would go from 70 points to 30 points to whatever he has this season? I'd like to have that crystal ball.
Well to some degree, yes...but this trade was not exactly lauded by anybody at the time. Gomez was coming off a fairly weak year of something like 55 pts, not 70 and nowhere his Jersey days. His career PPG was equivalent to Koivu's. At best he would have provided 55-60 pts, like his first year with Montreal, but he certainly was not a first-line centre.

You are right that no one thought he would entirely lose his offensive skills. But even if he was putting up 55 pts a year it would still be a bad trade given the lost cap space, the lost prospect and the lost as-good alternative. Best case would have been only a slightly better version of Koivu, costing a serious asset (Higgins would have been fair alone) and serious cap room.

As for McDonagh, I don't know what supports you claiming his stock was low. I don't recall seeing anything of that sort from Timmins at the time, if anything the media has reported now that Gainey overruled Timmins, but again it's not like anyone will go on the record and completely clarify this.

In fact, here is how Trevor Timmins described trading McDonagh in July 2009 a few days after the trade. You can listen to the audio but I've included what the site summarized.
http://www.hockeyinsideout.com/news/...-hes-had-a-few
Quote:
It was, Timmins said, like cutting off your left arm to get a third leg.

Weird metaphor.

But as Timmins pointed out, with some degree of chagrin, he takes care of the amateur scouting. What happens after that …


Last edited by smon: 03-31-2012 at 07:45 PM.
smon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2012, 08:43 PM
  #104
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,767
vCash: 500
I hope people stop with TRYING to justify the McDonagh trade. There is NOTHING to justify.

I've seen McDonagh play quite a lot in 1st and 2nd, way less on his 3rd for obvious reasons. So the report goes like this and please STOP going with stats once in while.

He had a very good 1st year for a rookie. Just didn't look out of place and was doing everything good while his agility had to improve. Then, came the 2nd year....and YES. He did struggle most of the year with a slight improvement till the end. But he struggled defensively to contain fast forwards, and had not the jump he had in his 1st year even if in the end he improved his stats slightly. But then something had changed. He was not taking the chances he did in his 1st year. He was merely joining the attack. CLEARLY, there was a strategy behind this or a coaching's advise for him to work on his defensive work first. And McDonagh had some trouble with his sophomore year. BUT THAT'S JUST FREAKIN IT. He had one average year. What's the whole point of going US, when the 1st thing every organization has in mind is that you might benefit from 4 years of development to know if you want to sign a guy than 2 years of CHL hockey. Wouldn't you want to know how he rebounds in his junior year? How was Kristo's sophomore year by any chance even without his injury? How come everyone agrees that it takes much longer to develop a d-man, yet, the guy has 1 bad game when Gainey is in attendance or just an average year and he's a freakin bust? Hey, while the jump is tough from the US to the CHL, EVERYBODY believed Tinordi would have a much greater impact even in it's first year.....was he a bust? How is he doing now? I can tell you that McDonagh would have look like an absolute superstar in the CHL even in his sophomore year. I was a little dissapointed by his sophomore year. I did say at that point and time that I saw him more as a #3-#4 than a #1-#2 based on that season. So even me, I caught got on being dissapointed. But please remember this. Timmins himself, was already saying that he'd see McDonagh being ready in 2 years. And in that 2nd year he gave that kind of performance, so there's a good reason to be dissapointed. But to a point to be TRADED? NO ****ING WAY. And the ONLY reason to trade a guy like him, would have been to acquire a super stud. So, not only his 2nd season was not a reason to get rid of him....but we were acquiring a super stud in Gomez? A guy EVERYBODY knew was on his way out? You have got to be super kidding me.

Now, his 3rd season, when he was a Rangers, by everybody's account INCLUDING Montreal, the poster, he was NOT a dissapointment. Might not have added the points we thought he would, but he was much more stronger on the back end and THEN showed improvement. In his 3rd year....but no....we had to think he was bust a year 2.

In the end, McDonagh did NOT deserve to be traded. And did not deserve to be implicated in getting a guy going downhill like Gomez was. There are no explications than a mediocre GM making a move while being desperate. How bad is that...


Last edited by Whitesnake: 04-01-2012 at 06:50 AM.
Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2012, 08:59 PM
  #105
wedge
Registered User
 
wedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: victoriaville
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,275
vCash: 500
it's easy to blame the GM, but the fans are even faster on the trigger. How many people wanted to get rid of Price in his difficult year? Heck, how many wanted to trade Subban this year? MaxPac two years ago because he wasn't in the NHL at 20 years old?

wedge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2012, 09:16 PM
  #106
Pandemic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Vancouver. BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,875
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post
it's easy to blame the GM, but the fans are even faster on the trigger. How many people wanted to get rid of Price in his difficult year? Heck, how many wanted to trade Subban this year? MaxPac two years ago because he wasn't in the NHL at 20 years old?
I remember the days when everyone was up in arms about missing out on David Perron. While he's a great player, I'd much, much rather have Maxpac

Pandemic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-31-2012, 11:58 PM
  #107
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,767
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post
it's easy to blame the GM, but the fans are even faster on the trigger. How many people wanted to get rid of Price in his difficult year? Heck, how many wanted to trade Subban this year? MaxPac two years ago because he wasn't in the NHL at 20 years old?
Will never understand this. Why the fans should be hold more or even just as accountable as the guys riding the ship? Makes no sense. We are just that....fans. We have opinions based on what we know. They are PAID to make the team better and not make stupid mistakes. If not, they are fired HENCE why they should be held more accountable than we do 'cause no fans was ever fired yet....

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 12:01 AM
  #108
Habaneros
Habs Cup champs 2010
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,700
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
same for Blunden, same for Noke, same for Darche (although injured right now)...
A new GM will come to town and put a new "face" on the team .

Why i said , even some favorites here now, could be goners.

Habaneros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 12:13 AM
  #109
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,999
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post
it's easy to blame the GM, but the fans are even faster on the trigger. How many people wanted to get rid of Price in his difficult year? Heck, how many wanted to trade Subban this year? MaxPac two years ago because he wasn't in the NHL at 20 years old?
The GM should know more than the morons who are impatient and don't understand potential and what it takes to become an NHL'er. Just because some drunk in the back row thinks Max is a bust doesn't mean that he is. Heck, if we're at the point we might as well hire the drunk in the back row to run things.

We should expect more from our GM and we haven't seen it since the first half of Gainey's tenure here.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 12:25 AM
  #110
Stradale
Registered User
 
Stradale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
We didn't push them to that point. SK got sent down after a poor year and a mediocre camp and took his ball and went home. Grabs bailed because he was a healthy scratch on a first place team.
Uh no. Sergei did not have a mediocre camp at all. He had surgery in the summer and did not start camp at the same time than everyone else. His first preseason game, he was bad but its perfectly normal after months without playing. He was much better in the following games. He was better than Latendresse, Lapierre, Stewart, White, Pyatt but all of them stayed with the team and Sergei was sent back to Hamilton late in the camp without no apparent reason.

JM never liked him and didn't wanted to work with him. I remember when SK accepted to go down, Boucher only had good words for SK.

Stradale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 12:53 AM
  #111
Hemlor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJG View Post
Ignorant comment. It's okay to trade a player if Managemet believes it's necessary. It is not okay to give them away. Sergei Kostitsyn is a first liner on a Cup contending team. We gave him away. That's poor asset Management. It is a big reason why were at the bottom of the conference.
are you forgetting how he was acting around the team, and the media circus that surrounded him? You can argue poor asset management, but you also have to look at how out of control the media can be. They constantly overblow every issue that come up, and take things out of context. This puts undo attention and pressure on the team and the organization. It is not limited to BG/PG, Savard did it, Houle did it, and it will happen again and again.

Hemlor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 12:56 AM
  #112
Habaneros
Habs Cup champs 2010
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,700
vCash: 500
the Habs are like a yard sale .

Here are a box of painting for only 4 dollars....


Then when they go to new home are the value goes to 10,000 each .


HABS ALWAYS , sell low .... never try to fix it up before the deal or deal when it high, ALWAYS wait till they paint themselves into a crap return .....BAD DEALERS.

Habaneros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 02:01 AM
  #113
Bacchus1
Registered User
 
Bacchus1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Seoul, Korea
Posts: 664
vCash: 500
For those who blame management over fans and media, I want you to consider this: management does run the team, but players have psyches, and they respond to the fans and media in their play. If a player doesn't show evolution or mental strength in this market, they must move the players along to encourage financial success. Yes, management runs the team, but they run the team to make money, and the fans (media) have a large part to do with this; and the player's response to this mix is crucial.

I honestly don't think most of the players that flourished elsewhere would have flourished here. It is evolution, and this is a different environment. The only prospect that we let go of too early (not traded for someone else (like McDonough--which still frustrates me), was SK. I think he really could have helped this team this year, and the only strike against him was his youthful exuberance and perhaps sketchy social decision making, which I am not too sure rose much beyond the level of speculation.

Management is only one part of this equation, and if you as a fan don't recognize the fan's and media's roll as part of a collective manic voice, then you have your proverbial head in the sand.

Bacchus1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 02:33 AM
  #114
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,722
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus1 View Post
For those who blame management over fans and media, I want you to consider this: management does run the team, but players have psyches, and they respond to the fans and media in their play. If a player doesn't show evolution or mental strength in this market, they must move the players along to encourage financial success. Yes, management runs the team, but they run the team to make money, and the fans (media) have a large part to do with this; and the player's response to this mix is crucial.

I honestly don't think most of the players that flourished elsewhere would have flourished here. It is evolution, and this is a different environment. The only prospect that we let go of too early (not traded for someone else (like McDonough--which still frustrates me), was SK. I think he really could have helped this team this year, and the only strike against him was his youthful exuberance and perhaps sketchy social decision making, which I am not too sure rose much beyond the level of speculation.

Management is only one part of this equation, and if you as a fan don't recognize the fan's and media's roll as part of a collective manic voice, then you have your proverbial head in the sand.
Well, first off, you're right about one thing. At the end of the day, this is a business, and like all businesses, the point is to make money.
That being said, in professional sport, winning and making money go hand in hand. Put forth a losing team and you won't be making all that much money. In a market like Mtl, you still might manage to make some, but in others, you'd lose money. Win the cup, and you'll make the most money.
So, even if management's priority is to make some cash, then building a SC contender team is the best way to do that.


Second, fans and medias don't hold that much power. People like to think they do, but really, they don't. Some of the guys we moved elsewhere had already shown good things here. Latendresse was our best scorer at ES, and we traded him for a guy that had been struggling even more, and produced less. Was it really that difficult to give Lats more ice time and try him out on the PP more regularly?
SK, also, had shown good things. AK consistently scored 20G, or at that pace, yet we found every possible way to diminish his contribution.
Same thing with D'Ago, he scored 12G in his first year here in 50ish games, that's about a 20g pace too.
Ribeiro had already scored 65pts here. I don't care if he even said it himself, the man had shown he was capable of something great. You surround him properly.
Ryder was a two time 30G scorer, three times 25+. No excuse to lose him for nothing.
Streit was an incredible important piece of our top place finish season.
Grabovski didn't get much chance here, but he was burning the AHL.

I mean, too many times did we give up players with potential, most of them showing it in the NHL, for nothing.
You cannot say they wouldn't have done it here, they already had shown they could. All you have to do is use them properly.

This year, the trend has continued. Eller, Weber and Palushaj are being misused. Not to mention we wasted our best forward. Plekanec has been converted into a checking center. Not a knock on DD, but he only has 8 pts more and is put in much favorable positions, with the best wingers.
We're using Palushaj along side Staubitz and Noke, on a 4th line. The purpose is to...not sure really..
Weber was moved from defense to offense, given one partner after another. For a young inexperienced guy with limited potential, it must certainly be tough. Not surprised he struggled through it.

Really, none of these decisions have to do with the media or the fans. And even if you want to move those guys, getting the weak returns (when there was a return..) is unacceptable.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 06:44 AM
  #115
Bacchus1
Registered User
 
Bacchus1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Seoul, Korea
Posts: 664
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well, first off, you're right about one thing. At the end of the day, this is a business, and like all businesses, the point is to make money.
That being said, in professional sport, winning and making money go hand in hand. Put forth a losing team and you won't be making all that much money. In a market like Mtl, you still might manage to make some, but in others, you'd lose money. Win the cup, and you'll make the most money.
So, even if management's priority is to make some cash, then building a SC contender team is the best way to do that.


Second, fans and medias don't hold that much power. People like to think they do, but really, they don't. Some of the guys we moved elsewhere had already shown good things here. Latendresse was our best scorer at ES, and we traded him for a guy that had been struggling even more, and produced less. Was it really that difficult to give Lats more ice time and try him out on the PP more regularly?
SK, also, had shown good things. AK consistently scored 20G, or at that pace, yet we found every possible way to diminish his contribution.
Same thing with D'Ago, he scored 12G in his first year here in 50ish games, that's about a 20g pace too.
Ribeiro had already scored 65pts here. I don't care if he even said it himself, the man had shown he was capable of something great. You surround him properly.
Ryder was a two time 30G scorer, three times 25+. No excuse to lose him for nothing.
Streit was an incredible important piece of our top place finish season.
Grabovski didn't get much chance here, but he was burning the AHL.

I mean, too many times did we give up players with potential, most of them showing it in the NHL, for nothing.
You cannot say they wouldn't have done it here, they already had shown they could. All you have to do is use them properly.

This year, the trend has continued. Eller, Weber and Palushaj are being misused. Not to mention we wasted our best forward. Plekanec has been converted into a checking center. Not a knock on DD, but he only has 8 pts more and is put in much favorable positions, with the best wingers.
We're using Palushaj along side Staubitz and Noke, on a 4th line. The purpose is to...not sure really..
Weber was moved from defense to offense, given one partner after another. For a young inexperienced guy with limited potential, it must certainly be tough. Not surprised he struggled through it.

Really, none of these decisions have to do with the media or the fans. And even if you want to move those guys, getting the weak returns (when there was a return..) is unacceptable.

You missed my main point which is the impact on the players psychology. A lot of these players are very young and cannot deal very well with the manic swings of one day a deity, the next day worth a dirty jock-strap. This is a lot to expect of a young player, especially players who are already quite proud, and so buy in to the former, and are crushed by the later. The result is a poor attitude. Yes, Reibero did well in terms of points, and is still doing so, but his character is bad. It was made remarkably worse by fan and media attention. I don't remember if you saw him being interviewed in the months before he was traded, but you could tell that his attitude was all wrong for a team sport, and he seemed to think that he was larger than the team.

If we are looking at the team this year I think that we can all agree that we don't have the right horses. We traded Gill and Cammillari (sp?), we lost our captain, our best player was out for about 85% of the year, and is now kicking off the rust (we hope), and Gomez (who isn't worth his pay, but still helps the team out a lot in terms of puck control) has been gone for what, 50% of the season. We never replaced Hammer, and we have a ton of rookies on D. So, yeah. This is all about bringing up our youth. 1 thing I think would have helped this year out a lot: not trading McDonough for Gomez. Worse trade ever. I remember when I first heard about the trade I wonder, what did we get for accepting that contract. When it turned out we PAYED for him ... wow!

The management has obviously mismanaged many aspects, but not as many as some think, and this is the case with most NHL teams: some to a lot of mismanagement. The fans and media, to paraphrase Carey Price, should chill the bleep out!

Bacchus1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 06:57 AM
  #116
onemorecup*
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,062
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think it falls on management. We've been so ready to jump toward quick fixes and making the playoffs that we've lost sight of the importance of development. We've made some really dumb decisions along the way and it's really hurt us.

onemorecup* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 07:02 AM
  #117
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,767
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus1 View Post
The management has obviously mismanaged many aspects, but not as many as some think, and this is the case with most NHL teams: some to a lot of mismanagement. The fans and media, to paraphrase Carey Price, should chill the bleep out!
Don't get this. On one hand, you're saying that fans and media play with players's pshyche, but then go on by saying it's not solely management's fault WHILE THEY MISMANAGED CERTAIN ASPECTS? How mismanaging the players' psyche aspects? And really just putting players on a pedestal works for some time. You might think you are the end of the world. But you surely remember who you are the day you are not playing....or have reduced time on ice, or don't play the PP. And if you don't, THEN it is a management problem. People keep saying that we've 3 or 4 coaches that ended up having the same problems with the same guys. Well, maybe it's because they all shared something which is their lack of communication and didn't understand that some players needs something while others needs something else. And it's all a question of how you build some leadership amongst the players that you choose to surround those up and coming players. Strangely, we've all heard stories of young guns who ended up sleeping at another vet's house and all, yet, Habs didn't choose to do something like that. In a city who most DESPERATELY needs some attention. And then, fans and media might have played a role in "some" players psyche like, for example, Theodore and Brisebois. Note a trend here. Quebecers are harsher with quebecers. But then they also tried to get to Price who eventually shut them up. But no fans tried to get to Grabs or SKost and those guys couldn't care less about what the media say. But going back to Quebecers, well we haven't had a large group of them to know how bad or good it will be. I say good, 'cause the more you are, the more you can divide the said pressure amongst you. But then, just win and that pressure becomes additional motivation. Yeah, this team has some weaknesses but has some strengths as well. Just like some others. Do ex-Thrashers prefer to play in Atlanta with nobody in the stands or in Winnipeg with a lot of people in it with this additional pressure to please? Yes, I know Winninpeg isn't Montreal. But then if that market is SOOOOO tough. Well do a better job interview prior to draft or acquire anybody so they'd know they have the guts to take that challenge. We keep hearing how they go through all those testing, from physically to mentally, well perfect your mental tests.

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 07:08 AM
  #118
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,767
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The GM should know more than the morons who are impatient and don't understand potential and what it takes to become an NHL'er. Just because some drunk in the back row thinks Max is a bust doesn't mean that he is. Heck, if we're at the point we might as well hire the drunk in the back row to run things.

We should expect more from our GM and we haven't seen it since the first half of Gainey's tenure here.
And in the end, that's the greatest joke of them all. I keep hearing for those past 9 years how it was incredibly crucial to have those guys around 'cause they wouldn't be those type of people like us with all those knee-jerk reactions all the time.....

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 07:09 AM
  #119
onemorecup*
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,062
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
O'Byrne Hey look we got something for him Bournival
Streit NOTHING IN RETURN
Beauchemin NOTHING IN RETURN
Perezhogin NOTHING IN RETURN
Hainsay NOTHING IN RETURN
Grabsovsky a 2nd & Pateryn.... the 2nd was pi$$ed away let's wait & see about Pateryn
McDonagh WORSE THAN NOTHING IN RETURN
Boullion NOTHING IN RETURN
Lapierre a 5th
Higgins PART OF THE WORSE THAN NOTHING


Now those players plus the ones you mentioned are not superstars except for one but most of them are better than alot of the players we have on our team. Couple that with the fact that we got nothing or next to nothing for most of them and you start to get an idea of why we're a lottery pick team.

onemorecup* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 07:26 AM
  #120
JohnnyB11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Saint John, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,391
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
the Habs are like a yard sale .

Here are a box of painting for only 4 dollars....


Then when they go to new home are the value goes to 10,000 each .


HABS ALWAYS , sell low .... never try to fix it up before the deal or deal when it high, ALWAYS wait till they paint themselves into a crap return .....BAD DEALERS.
Hello Habaneros, meet Jaroslav Halak.

JohnnyB11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 07:51 AM
  #121
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,655
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Price is Right View Post
You guys are all saying management is poor and things like that but same thing is happening. Why is Leblanc, Palushaj playing in the NHL? They should be in Hamilton...
What do you want them to do? Ice a team with 14 players because 1/3 of the team is injured?

Monctonscout is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 10:11 AM
  #122
EllertoKostitsynGoal
Registered User
 
EllertoKostitsynGoal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Mtl
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,055
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
1- Montreal has been horrible at identifying which of their players were actually good in the first place. Several of the players Montreal traded away didn't become good elsewhere; they were already good in Montreal, except it was not immediately obvious due to circumstance. Given away to other teams and put into better circumstances (more icetime, better linemates, etc), they naturally blossomed in terms of counting stats such as total points, creating the illusion that they had improved. They hadn't, at least not much; they were just put into situations where the same ability resulted in higher totals.
That's actually a pretty good point and one that hasn't come up all that often, surprising considering the 15364 threads we've had on this topic over the year.

It seems like management has had a big problem with this, judging players like the fans judge them: on boxcars. They haven't been able to identify their best 5on5 players wich has lead to some pretty poor 5on5 squads over the years.

In hindsight (in light of the reactionnary moves they have made this year), even some moves that looked like clever ways to help the ES play of a roster that had always had ES as a weakness suddenly looks like not as much thoughts went into them than I thought originally did.

The signing of Cole, instead of any other guy (even a younger one) with similar boxcars, looked like they had managed to identify a very good ES player who could play tough minutes/two way hockey wich was exactly what we needed, the fact that he happened to be a big winger was a nice bonus. Getting not any prospect for Halak, but actually getting one who was one of the best ES player in the AHL as a 20 year old was also pretty clever. Sadly, looking at those kind of moves after what they've done this year, it looks like their thought process was more "get more big players!!!!!" than "get more good ES players".

What looks like a failure to understand the value of two-way play (or maybe it's just an inability to evaluate it) is also pretty baffling considering how good they are at scouting and drafting those kind of players.

So yeah, lots of those players where already good here, they were just misused.

EllertoKostitsynGoal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 10:27 AM
  #123
Kimota
Nation of Poutine
 
Kimota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La Vieille Capitale
Country: France
Posts: 21,827
vCash: 500
The whole thing with Ribs, Lats and Lapierre was mind boggling. How can you lose faith in guys that young?

Kimota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 10:34 AM
  #124
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,135
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
The whole thing with Ribs, Lats and Lapierre was mind boggling. How can you lose faith in guys that young?
And how were the fans brainwashed into thinking these guys were worth trading and also worth what the team got back for them?

hockeyfan2k11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 10:35 AM
  #125
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,722
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus1 View Post
You missed my main point which is the impact on the players psychology. A lot of these players are very young and cannot deal very well with the manic swings of one day a deity, the next day worth a dirty jock-strap. This is a lot to expect of a young player, especially players who are already quite proud, and so buy in to the former, and are crushed by the later. The result is a poor attitude. Yes, Reibero did well in terms of points, and is still doing so, but his character is bad. It was made remarkably worse by fan and media attention. I don't remember if you saw him being interviewed in the months before he was traded, but you could tell that his attitude was all wrong for a team sport, and he seemed to think that he was larger than the team.
Who cares if playing in Mtl is tough? It's management's fault to prepare its prospects, and into the preparation should go the expectations of playing for MTL, and everything it entails.
I mean, would you go into a war zone thinking you're going to an all-inclusive resort?

Maybe the youngsters don't really know what they're in for, but that falls on management.
It doesn't matter if Ribeiro's attitude was bad. Why couldn't we fix it? And why is it good enough for Dallas? But even if it was simply too much for us, which can happen, the main issue with all of these ''problem players'' is that we NEVER got a good return.
If management doesn't know how to deal with these guys, then they should trade them at their highest value for a good return. But they never did that, always waited for them to hit rock bottom.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus1 View Post
If we are looking at the team this year I think that we can all agree that we don't have the right horses. We traded Gill and Cammillari (sp?), we lost our captain, our best player was out for about 85% of the year, and is now kicking off the rust (we hope), and Gomez (who isn't worth his pay, but still helps the team out a lot in terms of puck control) has been gone for what, 50% of the season. We never replaced Hammer, and we have a ton of rookies on D. So, yeah. This is all about bringing up our youth. 1 thing I think would have helped this year out a lot: not trading McDonough for Gomez. Worse trade ever. I remember when I first heard about the trade I wonder, what did we get for accepting that contract. When it turned out we PAYED for him ... wow!

The management has obviously mismanaged many aspects, but not as many as some think, and this is the case with most NHL teams: some to a lot of mismanagement. The fans and media, to paraphrase Carey Price, should chill the bleep out!
We started the year with a lot of depth up front, with a lot of potential. We ruined that. Defensively, there was a problem, but still, we shouldn't be where we are today. PG decided to destroy the team though, to the point where Plekanec is playing with scrappers and has been used as a checking center.


Management has mismanaged a lot of things. People say this happens on other teams, and it's true, it can happen, but find me another team where this has happened as frequently as on the Habs. You won't find one. You won't find another team that struggles with so many ''trouble'' players, and trade them for crap.

Under the Houle era, we traded away superstars and stars for very little, and our draft was horrible.
Under the Gainey/PG era, we traded a lot of attitude players for much weaker return value, but our draft has been good.

Fans have every right to be upset with the management.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:13 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.