Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
Gardiner would not get the 2nd overall pick, but no way in hell does it take Gardiner to move up around 3 spots. I wouldn't even give Franson to move up 3 spots.
You know what's funny? I was thinking of how to get the 2nd overall without giving up our first after I posted on the Leaf board that we should give up 4th plus Blacker for the 2nd. Edmonton is in obvious need of D and goaltending and I highly doubt they stay put at 2nd. Just wouldn't make sence.
And there is the main problem with Toronto proposals. Give them low end players and prospects. Give them enough of them and how can they refuse?
Nobody drafting early wants junk for their gold. Edmonton, Columbus, Montreal and any other team drafting early can get junk from all the other teams in the league if they want.
You want a high pick you have to give up something that is valuable to your team.
Schenn and Blacker are both solid pieces going forward and the other prospects involved could be packaged for Harding or someone of that nature. I think if Edmonton landed Schenn, Blacker and Harding in the offseason it is huge going forward
I'm sorry this is really awful. The 2nd overall is a franchise player, you can't trade it for a top 9 forward (CMac) an eventual 2nd pairing defenseman (Schenn), and a bunch of prospects who won't be anything special. Blacker and McKegg would both be overshoadowed in our system by equal/better talents. The last thing Edmonton needs is prospects. We need an impact defenseman, a power forward, and perhaps a big center. Toronto would have a very hard time putting an appealing package together for the pick considering their assets relatvie to Edmonton's needs.
Gardiner would not get the 2nd overall pick, but no way in hell does it take Gardiner to move up around 3 spots. I wouldn't even give Franson to move up 3 spots.
Go look at the last 10 drafts and look at the difference between 2nd (+ chance for first) and 5th overall. It's worth a Franson or Gardiner almost every season.
I'm sorry this is really awful. The 2nd overall is a franchise player, you can't trade it for a top 9 forward (CMac) an eventual 2nd pairing defenseman (Schenn), and a bunch of prospects who won't be anything special. Blacker and McKegg would both be overshoadowed in our system by equal/better talents. The last thing Edmonton needs is prospects. We need an impact defenseman, a power forward, and perhaps a big center. Toronto would have a very hard time putting an appealing package together for the pick considering their assets relatvie to Edmonton's needs.
If you even wanted a conversation over the pick
Gardiner, Kulemin, 1st
for
1st
And that's a dicey situation still for Edmonton.
Gardiner is a legitimate top prospect. You simply would not get a guy with his upside to move up from #5-7 to #2 in a draft like this let alone adding in Kulemin.
That said, I think that there is a huge misconception on the state of the Oilers defense and d-prospects. What is particularly ironic is that the Leafs goals against is worse than that of the Oilers. If you ignore empty net goals the Leafs have given up 29 more goals than the Oilers.
Mybe the Oilers should be sending some defensive prospects to the Leafs for their first.
[MOD EDIT]
Schenn is only worth a late 1st or a early 2nd.
[MOD EDIT]
Schenn is worth a 1st. He'll be a very good top 4 defenseman one day. It takes time with this player type, ask Smid. We see these guys who break in super early get devalued all the time, but the fact is most 22 year old defenseman are not in the NHL. Schenn is suffering from the same thing that afflicts Gagner, too much success too soon followed up by development years. There will be a time when Leaf fans, and Oiler fans, will be glad their respective managments didn't cave and send these players away for 10 cents on the dollar due to impatience. Giving these players 4-5 years of development time at the expense of the team means there ought to be a commitment to see these players through untill the payoff.
Last edited by Viqsi: 04-01-2012 at 04:21 PM.
Reason: qdp
That is fair value. And I would be interested if say Toronto finished with 3rd overall or forth overall. (I want to ensure we can select Galenchyuk and Murray )
This is 100% definitely not fair value. Not in a million years would Edmonton even begin to consider looking at that proposal.
only if the '13 is top 5 protected.. (which i doubt the Oils will do then )
I'd think the Oil would still do it. As nice as it would be to have Yakupov join Hall, RNH and Ebs, I think we need a blue chipper on the back end. If the Leafs are picking 5/6/7 we should be able to nab one of Murray/Dumba/Trouba at that spot still. Next year I would expect the Leafs to pick anywhere from 8-16 (much like our team), and I'd consider that deal a win for both teams if so (we need a C with size and grit and might find that in Monohan or Lazar with where the Leafs may pick next year).
I'd think the Oil would still do it. As nice as it would be to have Yakupov join Hall, RNH and Ebs, I think we need a blue chipper on the back end. If the Leafs are picking 5/6/7 we should be able to nab one of Murray/Dumba/Trouba at that spot still. Next year I would expect the Leafs to pick anywhere from 8-16 (much like our team), and I'd consider that deal a win for both teams if so (we need a C with size and grit and might find that in Monohan or Lazar with where the Leafs may pick next year).
Would give the Leafs a pretty nice top 6:
Lupul-Bozak-Kessel
Kulemin-Grabovski-Yakupov
I really, really don't think it's worth moving down three spots when you're this high in the draft for a potential 8-16 overall pick. There's usually a pretty large cap between the a 2nd overall pick and a 5-6 overall pick.
Gardiner is a legitimate top prospect. You simply would not get a guy with his upside to move up from #5-7 to #2 in a draft like this let alone adding in Kulemin.
That said, I think that there is a huge misconception on the state of the Oilers defense and d-prospects. What is particularly ironic is that the Leafs goals against is worse than that of the Oilers. If you ignore empty net goals the Leafs have given up 29 more goals than the Oilers.
Mybe the Oilers should be sending some defensive prospects to the Leafs for their first.
There is a HUGE difference in picking 2nd as opposed to 5th. Without a top asset the Oilers would be foolish to consider it.
Here is a comparison of the players picked in 2-5-8 i posted a little while ago:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44
The difference between the 2nd overall and 8 is astronomical. A couple of 2nds doesn't even get the discussion started. Even to move up from 5 to 2, a real NHLer is going to have to be moving back. Lets look at a comparison:
2nd-----------5th-----------8th--------Comments on BPA
Landeskog ----Strome-------Couturier---Still early but IMO Landeskog blows away the comp. even Couturier who dropped dramatically.
Seguin --------Niederreiter--Burmistrov--Seguin AINEC, 5-8 may have similar value
Hedman -------B.Schenn----Glennie-----Hedman easily, but Schenn could still impress.
VanRiemsdyk---Alzner-------Hamill------2nd and 5th are very close, this is also arguably the worst 2nd overall in the last 15 years.
J.Staal---------Kessel-------Mueller-----Too close to call, Kessel fell in his draft and Staal hasn't had as offensive a role going forward. But i would still give the edge to Staal, especially prior to this season.
Ryan-----------Price-------Setoguchi--- Ryan by a fair bit, Price is a very good young goalie but he still hasn't become a franchise goalie as of yet.
Malkin----------Wheeler-----Picard------ Malkin by so much it's going to make me sick
E.Staal----------Vanek------Cobourn---- Staal AINEC, this is despite a veryvery strong 5th and 8th overallselections
Lehtonen-------Whitney----P.Bouchard-- A weak draft, all three solid but injury prone. A healthy Whitney is probably the best player, but Lehtonen probably wins out longterm.
If we go by this we can decipher, A) the 2nd overall pick is likely to be a star. B) the 5th could be very good but is very unlikely to compare in any way to the 2nd. C) The 8th overall pick is as likely to bust as become a solid if unspectacular player, and only in extreme cases of luck are they likely to become a star.
Clearly an smart GM is going to require a massive payment to deal down form 2nd to 8th, and still is going to require a rather large payment to even move down to 5 (i.e. 2 seconds isn't even close in either case). The risk of giving up a franchise player for a marginal asset is far too great.
If we look at the last defenseman heavy draft do you think Gardiner makes the tradedown of Doughty to Schenn palatable, i don't. There is the chance a GM believes a comprable talent is avaliable at 5, but i think it's very doubtful that comes to fruition. For Edmonton to move that pick, they need to be getting very valuable assets back. The fact is 2nds almost never bust, but 5th's do. Usually a 5th isn't a star from the comp. but is instead a very solid top of the roster player, and they take longer to develop.
I really, really don't think it's worth moving down three spots when you're this high in the draft for a potential 8-16 overall pick. There's usually a pretty large cap between the a 2nd overall pick and a 5-6 overall pick.
Do you know much about the 2013 draft? It is stacked. A ton of good centers with size and grit. Lets say we land Dumba, then Lazar the following year. Yakupov is better than either of those guys, but both combined? I just think a physical guy with good offensive instincts to play in your top 4 and a gritty 2 way C with a deadly release capable of potting 30 is more important than a guy who goes 40-40 and plays with grit buck lacks a bit in the size department.
I really, really don't think it's worth moving down three spots when you're this high in the draft for a potential 8-16 overall pick. There's usually a pretty large cap between the a 2nd overall pick and a 5-6 overall pick.
bang on. There will almost certainly be a defenseman or two that seperates themselves from the heard, and there will probably be a couple that beceome stragglers. We don't need to move the Doughty of the draft so we can draft the Schenn of the draft. The assets being proposed will not make up that difference. Sure there's a chance we end up with a comprable talent, but that is a gigantic risk.
Ryan-----------Price-------Setoguchi--- Ryan by a fair bit, Price is a very good young goalie but he still hasn't become a franchise goalie as of yet..
What more does the kid have to do? I mean I would put him as one of the top 4 goalies in the league behind only...
1. Rinne
2. Lundquvist
3. Luongo (Season Lou not playoff Lou )
He is the only reason Montreal is not below Columbus. Price far surpasses Bobby Ryan. Also that is coming from a die hard leafs fan who usually hates anything to do with Montreal.
What more does the kid have to do? I mean I would put him as one of the top 4 goalies in the league behind only...
1. Rinne
2. Lundquvist
3. Luongo (Season Lou not playoff Lou )
He is the only reason Montreal is not below Columbus. Price far surpasses Bobby Ryan. Also that is coming from a die hard leafs fan who usually hates anything to do with Montreal.
That could be fair, i don't think he's worth more than Ryan though. The reason i said he isn't a franchise goalie is because he's only 15th in sv% among starters. However this was an old post and looking back with foresight i'd say his ranking is hurt very much by Montreals team performance. I don't think he's a top 5 goalie yet, but i do think he's on his way. He's a goalie you can build around, but there are still clearly enough better tenders out there that calling him a franchise goalie as of yet may be a little premature. Current starters i'd argue could be better include Quick, Rinne, Lundquvist, Kipprusoff, Lehtonen, Luongo (?), Miller, Thomas, Backstrom, Howard, Fleury, Vokoun, Ward, Hiller. I think an argument could be made Price is better than some, but for a guy who is IMO not yet an indisputable top 10 goalie i think the franchise tag is a little early. His contemporaries IMO are young future starters such as Fleury, Dubnyk, Varlamov, Rask, Schnieder, Ward. I think that he's in the upper echelon of those guys but IMO he needs to do more before i call him a franchise guy, but i respect your argument and don't believe it is without merit.
That doesn't work out for the Leafs. I'd argue Gardiner is untouchable 2nd to only Kessel given the Leafs lack of top-end talent. But I appreciate the offer.
I think thats an awful deal for the Oilers. The 5th overall isn't likely to net the Oilers a superior center, in fact some one just as good would be a success historically. If you consider that player probably won't reach Gagner's level for some time it's even worse for the Oilers.
As good as Gardiner is i have sincere doubts that he will compare to the player taken at #2. Gardiner is not a franchise defenseman, the player taken at #2 is almost always a franchise talent.
Sure some G.M's would like to get Schenn but not at the redicules price your asking for him. But he also is slow,has no offensive potential and has looked terrible this season. You got to learn to list the good with the bad when trying to pimp him.
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