Yes, he does. Moulson signed a bargain deal, that shouldn't be the measure against which all other contracts are judged. The fact is that we could not sign another Moulson for that rate, nor could we replace PAP's production.
If you are not going to pay more than $3M for anyone who isn't a complete player capable of putting up 30 goals or 70 points (in other words, similar production to Moulson/PAP but better overall) than you aren't going to sign anyone, period.
And as far as beyond that goes, I would deal with it when it happens. So long as PAP is contributing, his contract won't hurt us. He can be moved later if necessary.
But I don't want to finish bottom-5 next year. Going into the offseason worse than we are this year and counting on Garth to make enough moves to not only replace a key player but to add further improvements is likely to put the Isles into the McKinnon/Jones hunt.
Your last paragraph is placing far too much value on the play of PA Parenteau. I would like to heartily disagree with the assessment that the loss of this player would place the Islanders in a far worse position. Unfortunately, for both of us, there really isn't a ton of evidence showing what the team would be like if PA Parenteau is replaced on JT's line or on the PP. Kyle Okposo has had the most time on the JT line of any other player, and he produced very well on that line this season. In fact, the line had its best month of the year. The only month where JT was a plus player.
Now, having said all of that, if he is replaced with NOTHING, then it's only through internal improvement that the team will do anything.
However, while I said more in the bolded part, I really didn't mean the "more" part to be insignificant. So let's ask these instead... How much more is PA Parenteau worth to the Islanders than Matt Moulson? Do the Islanders not set a limit at retaining PA Parenteau because he is far too valuable? What is your upper limit to retain him? Where do you draw the line?
If we signed PA for $4.5 million/year for 2 years ($4.00 mil/$5.00 mil), I could probably stomach it. However, understand that I feel that retaining him is far from the most pressing problem for this team. You simply cannot sign him for dollars and long term. You don't assume that he'll be effective if anybody ever pushes him off the top line. Therefore, you don't assume you can easily move him if his production may fall in a lessened role.
You should look at the numbers from these past couple of seasons and realize how ineffective our top line has been against many teams within our division. These are the teams we play the most by far.
You do want to consider the loss of PAP and how it affects the team when trying to retain him, but that only goes so far. We have more playmakers than we know what to do with. Yes, PA Parenteau is very good on the power play. Yes, PA Parenteau stickhandles the puck well and gains the zone that way. Yes, he's good with extra time on space when given it.
Did PA Parenteau's performance tonight against the Penguins show anything that I didn't already state? No points for the Moulson-JT-PAP line again tonight against a divisional opponent.
Also, we traded for Rolston because we thought he could add something to this team on top of his salary. Unfortunately, we didn't have the kind of team that could support a player who had become basically a shot and not much else. Also, we traded $4 million in cap space over two seasons for $5 million in cap space over one season. Then, we traded Rolston and Mottau in a move that saved us about $1 million. We literally got the money off the books before next season when our other contracts start to creep up.
Now, understanding that we have a very limited budget - a very, very, very limited budget, you can't overpay a player who is not the perfect fit. PA Parenteau is not the perfect fit for our lineup. You can afford to overpay him somewhat to retain him, just like any UFA, but you don't overpay him like we can't afford to lose him at any cost. He is not that type of player. Every dollar we spend on him hurts us more than other clubs because of how low our payroll is. Every dollar overspent is literally a dollar that isn't overspent on other more pressing needs. We have 3 defenders coming off the books. We can't pay anything PAP wants because of that problem.
We can afford to head into the off-season without PAP if he's asking for too much. I'd argue that he will be retained at a fair price, or he isn't retained at all. Looking at our salary structure, I'll argue that Garth will double PAP's salary for next season, and at best will peak at $4 million in the final contract year if it's a 3-year deal.
These are the maximum offers I would ever expect Garth to give. Perhaps, he'll surprise me. Perhaps, he sees more than I do in this player. Perhaps, we really have nothing else we're planning on spending it on.
With that said, PAP is not getting paid more than John Tavares next season. No ****ing way, and no ****ing how. (Will be shocked and disappointed if this occurs.) Tavares is getting a salary of $4.00 million for next season. Yes, I understand that it's RFA vs. UFA when it was signed. I also understand that it's franchise top-10 player vs. complementary playmaking winger. I also understand how our salary structure has been careful monitored of late.
...and I really don't want a bottom-5 finish either. That should be pretty ****ing obvious.
As far as I'm concerned, Josh Bailey is auditioning for a spot in the top-6 right now. If we don't get sizable a center who can score goals, it probably doesn't matter for next season what we do. We'll still be 2-3 years out waiting for our bigger kids to start to pan out.
,
Mitch
I'd hate to quote myself, but it seems like he knows it. It could actually be that the whole line is auditioning to be the 2nd line for next season. Also, I'm exaggerating with the "doesn't matter" part. If we do some other move that greatly improves the team, that will obviously be a big deal. If we added a first line winger that fits better, it's not like that wouldn't make a huge difference.
I don't think Islander fans have any clue over what is market value for productive players. Under 4m for 50 then to 70 points? That would be a steal if he was signed from another team. But re-signed here? Gotta worry about the ramifications of 3 years down the line. As if buyouts won't still exist if necessary.
I don't think Islander fans have any clue over what is market value for productive players. Under 4m for 50 then to 70 points? That would be a steal if he was signed from another team. But re-signed here? Gotta worry about the ramifications of 3 years down the line. As if buyouts won't still exist if necessary.
What the market decides the value is for a player, doesn't mean that value is worth the cost for the teams that didn't place that value upon the player. Also, the opportunity cost here could be very significant depending on what PA is asking for. We have a lot of roster slots opening on defense - a market where you tend to pay a premium.
Not that I expect anyone to read the entirety of my walls of text, but I don't see PAP making more bank than JT next season. I just really don't see Garth doing that.
That would set $4 million as the absolute maximum for PAP's starting salary next season and $5 million as the absolute maximum for PAP's salary in year 2.
A team that has a limited budget for players needs to avoid buyouts like the plague if they want to improve the team's performance. Salary that goes to buyouts will be taken away from the budget in one matter or another in one year or another.
Just a warning, playmaking wingers who lack physical attributes don't tend to break the bank. Don't be shocked if PAP gets something between Tanguay ($3.50 million) and Hemsky ($5.00 million) money. I'll place a friendly wager that his contract will start a hell of a lot closer to Tanguay's number. The JT line matters, and $3.50 million is 2.8 times PAP's salary for the current season.
...or maybe PAP goes to market and some team like the Kings spends $5 million/year on him. It might happen. I think it's more likely that PAP is retained at a reasonable value by the Islanders. Anywhere from 2-4 years depending on what management thinks of him.
If PAP wants to make more money than John Tavares ($4.00 million next season and $5.00 million in 2013-14), then he's going to be looking elsewhere for it (and I stand behind the NYI if they stick to the values that I've listed in this thread even if they don't replace PAP at forward for next season.)
I feel PAP's overall game has improved over last year. His +/- has only improved 3 pts but the # of giveaways & bonehead passes seems to have dropped significantly.
Last season, the soft backhand pass or weak play in the O zone that led to many turnovers, would boil my blood. In fact, I don't recall screaming at the tube towards a single player's effort since MA Bergeron graced us with his skillset. (Comrie toe drag ranks up there as well).
He's grown on me enough to drop 'Smear' from his moniker. He is what he is & has shown improvement. He's easily a top 6 forward for this squad and I'm satisfied with his production, with or without JT.
Garth will make a sound offer but PAP isn't an RFA and is up for, possibly, the one & only big payday of his career.
Flip Grabner plus to LAK for Brown would be nice. Still means NYI lack #2 center since Bailey seems to prefer Wing at this stage.
If CLB is dumb enough, I would also flip Grabner plus for Umberger, which is the #2 center the team needs. They need to make the Nash trade first to understand the return before moving Umberger
LMFAO!!! UMBERGER???? #2 center??? whoah this must have been drug induced. !4g and 18a but he is a better 2nd line center than Nielsen??? Wow, seriously this is probably the dum... nevermind. Just wow!
why is everyone worried about buyouts and contract term, etc. the islanders are not going far above the cap floor anytime soon. we have a guy by all accounts wants to stay, he is productive and has chemisty with our franchise player. give him 5M per, a lot of other teams will without a blink. we are not going to max out out cap . not now and not in 5 years. and if he is garbage in 3 years who cares? the rick has been crap for the last 3 years and we have what 9 more to go? he still does not hurt us against the cap. when the UFAs are dying to get to the Islanders then we can worry about stuff like this. its not happening at least until we get a new arena, and i suspect the problem is more than that.
i'm not for paying him more than 3 mil a year, short term. i'm not sure that it's the best strategy to get into a bidding war for him. i think that it's always a good thing to be prudent. i honestly do not consider him one of our top 3 players, and therefore, would not want him to be paid so.
given that, if Garth is absolutely positive that he could fetch $4+ mil a year, on the open market, could he sign him for that much, and trade him for a 2nd? better than just letting him go, for nothing? yes?
i honestly think that it's time that our young draftees from 3-5 years ago, start getting thrown into positions of responsibility...
need to work more on team defence/toughness, IMO, than secondary scoring.
I'd hate to quote myself, but it seems like he knows it. It could actually be that the whole line is auditioning to be the 2nd line for next season. Also, I'm exaggerating with the "doesn't matter" part. If we do some other move that greatly improves the team, that will obviously be a big deal. If we added a first line winger that fits better, it's not like that wouldn't make a huge difference.
,
Mitch
Am I the only one that is scared by how well our second line is playing right now? Seems like it will give Garth & Wang reason to not bother bringing in any scoring forwards, claiming we already have the players.
Kinda like last year, when many of us were fooled into thinking that Nielen/Grabner/Okposo would be a dominant second line, and that Comeau could pot 25 on the third line.
As well as Bailey/Nielsen/Okposo is playing right now, I would hate to depend on that line being a consistent threat next season.
the more and more this progresses, the more I'm starting to think we should of traded PAP at the deadline for some good return...
Perhaps not getting a good return for him at the deadline speaks to the league's perceived value of him. Maybe he doesn't get the full dollar and term benefit of the Tavares premium that is so clearly in his stats. Perhaps this realization allows us to retain him at a reasonable rate.
Overall, while I'd like to keep him, I don't want the Isles to pay the Tavares premium built into his numbers. And I don't thinkI'd want to do more than 3 years when we should have more of our better-skilled prospects hitting the team.
After yesterday's game, they asked him on camera about next year, and he didn't mention wanting to be here. Just that he didn't want to think about next year. Hmmm....
But, how much of PAP and Moulson's production is predicated on playing with JT?
1. That's totally irrelevant. Production is production no matter what line it is on. Okposo is on a 6 game goal scoring streak, bet all you guys said he could only produce playing with JT too...
Parenteau has shown he can produce very well on the 2nd line as that line's best player, and on the PP> Not worth considering where he'd be without JT as long as he's playign with JT anyway.
We need him, he's our 2nd best offensive player overall. 3-4 years at 4-5 mil per year? Ill certainly take it. We have the cap room, well never have to worry about cap it seems, so I dont see the fuss Our offense take s ahuge step back if we lose him. o6t to mention, he's definiyely a guy id consider a "heart and soul" player. Gives 100% out there almost all the time, way better than a lot of players wve had recently.
LMFAO!!! UMBERGER???? #2 center??? whoah this must have been drug induced. !4g and 18a but he is a better 2nd line center than Nielsen??? Wow, seriously this is probably the dum... nevermind. Just wow!
He was wrong in his assessmentof flipping Grabner + for Umberger because Grabner at his age and contract status and his offensive talent is way more valuable then umberger, and wed need to get umberger+ for Grabner, but with the right linemates, Umberger can be a 2nd line C.
Umberger is onyl a year older than Frans, but has 4 seasons with more points than Nielsen's career high. Umberger is a better player than Nielsen, and Okposo and Bailey would eb better and mor ecompatible linemates than what he has now. He'd come here and be a 20 goal, 35-40 assist guy, which would eba solid upgrade. Biggest upgrade woul be Nielsen now at our 3rd line C. I would love a Nielsen-Grabs-Nino 3rd lien if we could keep Grabner, go for it Garth
He wants to stay. He (along with Moulson) has terrific chemistry with the teams best player/future. He needs to be signed. I dont think what he seems to be looking for is outrageous at all. Show some commitment to a player who is committed to this team.
^Exactly. I sure hope this isnt another Jason Blake situation, when he wanted to stay bu the Isles werent willing to put up market value. Obviously that worked out cause Blake was a bust after that 40 goal season, and he was 24 when he left us, not 28 and entering his probable prime, but still, losing an allstar winger because of the managaments incompetence again would hurt
Regardless of whether Parenteau is not a long-term fix, you can't build a team just waiting for core players to fall in your lap, letting guys like Parenteau go and replacing them with nothing.
There needs to be a transition and it's not like the team can't afford it. What they can't afford is letting guys go for pennies on the dollar. What is $1M on this team?
Regardless of whether Parenteau is not a long-term fix, you can't build a team just waiting for core players to fall in your lap, letting guys like Parenteau go and replacing them with nothing.
There needs to be a transition and it's not like the team can't afford it. What they can't afford is letting guys go for pennies on the dollar. What is $1M on this team?
So long as the isles don't give Parenteau a NTC or NMC,he can always be traded a few yrs down the road.
Looking at the backloaded deals the isles gave Tavares, Okposo and Grabner ,I wonder if the team isn't trying to backload Parenteau's extension,but his side is balking.The new cba could roll back salaries.
,
