How about Real Cloutier? Here is a guy who tore the WHA apart starting in his second year - and for those who would disregard WHA stats he also was very successful against top Europeans including the Soviets. In 1979-80 he was on his way to a 50 goal year playing for a very poor Quebec team and then got hurt. From there booze/partying took over.
Bure was a superstar and should make the HoF, but he was not a generational talent. If Bure was a generational talent, then about half of the 90s superstars were generational talents. Yzerman and Sakic weren't even considered generational talents. Generational talents are guys like Howe, Orr, Lafleur, Gretzky, Lemieux, etc. Bure doesn't belong on that list.
IMO if bure had a full 15 season career he'd have at least 750 goals, i think thats fair to call a generational talent
Fogarty certainly was an interesting player. All the talent in the world, none of the self esteem that generally comes with it. But Mats Sundin once said something along the lines of Fogarty being a better player drunk than any of them (The Nordiques) were sober.
My dad had a front-row seat to Howie Young playing for the Red Wings in the early 60's; he has described him as "as dominant as Howe ... sometimes"
Now, the "EXTERNAL LINKS" on his wikipedia page read thusly:
Howard Young at the Internet Movie Database
John Howard Young at the Internet Movie Database
Howie Young's profile at hockeydb.com
Howie Young at Detroit Red Wings
Legends of Hockey profile
When IMDB is above hockeydb, it's not a good sign ...
Howie Young just doesn't fit even the most liberal of generational talents
Even some of the guys mentioned were top prospects but hardly "generational talents" which strictly speaking should be a list of less than a dozen guys right?
i think fogarty's talent has gotten very overrated over the years. he could have been a very good, maybe even great, player, but i don't know that you can call a guy who was drafted 9th overall a generational talent.
keep in mind that when fogarty broke bobby orr's OHL goal record, he was 19. bobby orr set that record at 17 (and scored at very very close to that rate in his 16 year old season too). when he was 19, orr was in the NHL and winning the norris trophy. that is a generational talent.
similar example: at 19, bobby smith set the OHL single season points record. gretzky broke that record the same year, but smith ended up with 192 points to gretzky's 182. the key distinction is that gretzky was 17, and when he was 19 he was winning the hart trophy in the NHL. again, the difference between a generational talent and an excellent talent.
Excellent post. Great examples on Orr-Fogarty and Smith-Gretzky.
A generational tent, by approximate definition, is something that comes long every 25 years or so...nd I think Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux are it fom my lifetime. Lindros, maybe, Crosby might be another, certainly close. Tavares breaking Gretzky's OHL record was something special, but Tavares did not continue the development path after his 16 year old season, not the way 99 did anyway.
Everyone else is before my time but I don't think anyone mentioned in the thread (Daigle, Fogarty, Bure, Brett Hull) are close to generational talent, despite the media hype.
Generational talent is such a subjective term, is it only Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe or is it guys like Lidstrom, Pronger, Bourque, Crosby, Lindros ect. Is it "once or twice in generation" or is it "once or twice every 10 years"?
If you think the second list is more accurate I definitely think Fogarty could be in that generational talent but not a generational player mix. I'd guess most people here never watched him, but I'm sure we all heard the stories. My dad was active in the OHA in the 70s and 80s and he talked about Fogarty quite a bit. The saddest part is hearing about a couple players who's circumstances are just like Fogarty but they never made it far enough to get the media attention he did.
The three first guys I thought of. One of them isn't like the others :
- Frank Mahovlich
- Ken Dryden
- Nels Crutchfield
Seriously, I can't believe the Habs traded Herb Cain and Lionel Conacher for a guy who had never even played in the NHL and was already 23 years old, then he has one mediocre year and gets hurt and never plays again, almost Lindros-esque really....
Guy Lafleur scored 3 hat tricks in his rookie year an Nhl record at the time.Scotty Bowman was playing him at center for most of his first three seasons.Bowman was terrible for young players.Many of Lafleurs people were hoping that he would play for an american team so he could get more ice time.Remember 3 hat tricks for a rookie it took 20 yrs before selane broke it.
I don't know if this counts, but I'm a firm believer that a 100% forsberg was a generational talent. It's a shame he never truly maintained his peak because of injuries. We saw flashes of it for a season here and a season there, but that was about it.
LOL that doesnt count, there are more to being a generational talent than the points
He had a generational shot... there wasn't much to his game but he knew how to score goals and you need goals to win games. Robitaille and Nicholls were of the same ilk in the sense that they were not very pretty skaters or slick puckhandlers, but they knew where to position themselves and they knew hot to shoot. They had aspects of their game that could be considered generational, but they certainly weren't touted as being generational players like someone such as Jimmy Carson was expected to be.
Lafleuer was the definition of a generational talent...Hard to believe Bowman played him at center as he was just a slightly above average passer and not great at reading plays. Lindros was hyped as a generational talent but was too busy looking at the puck to be one. Fogarty, nah not good enough, but would have been an interesting player if clean and sober. Real Cloutier had lots of talent but can't call him a generational talent...He was the best I ever saw at one thing though: kicking the puck in the net....I swear he scored four or five goals against the Bruins that way one year...
If they are in the hall of fame they should not be in this thread
Two names jumped to mind
Petr Klima and Jimmy Carson
Carson had the talent, but he had no heart and Klima lacked motivation on most nights
i think klima was another guy who had drinking/drug problems. he and probert used to get into trouble together, not unlike fogarty and john kordic in juniors and then quebec. unlike the other three, klima was able to make it through and is reportedly doing well, living in detroit and working with youth hockey teams.
Excellent post. Great examples on Orr-Fogarty and Smith-Gretzky.
A generational tent, by approximate definition, is something that comes long every 25 years or so...nd I think Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux are it fom my lifetime. Lindros, maybe, Crosby might be another, certainly close.
This for me, generational talent have a special talent, they dominated at all level for the youngest age and could have play the nhl a 17 year's old and be better than a lot.
Generational talent have a special talent, they cannot discover it and become generational talent late and their career normaly.
You can almost forget everybody not going and the nhl and looking special right away like Datsyuk, Sedins, etc... generational talent will give you flash right away, all the time, like Lidstrom, Bourque, Potvin, Orr at defence.
Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, oVy, etc...
You can be a generational player without having a generational talent maybe, by hardcore will and domination, endurance, thougness, etc... and vice versa.