HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Kirk Muller gone the real reason for the downfall.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-02-2012, 05:02 PM
  #1
Alexdaman
Registered User
 
Alexdaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,189
vCash: 50
Kirk Muller gone the real reason for the downfall.

It seems crystal clear that Kirk Muller was the real 'coach' on the canadiens bench these past seasons. He was still receiving orders from Martin but he was the one dealing with giving them to the players and he was the strong point for the players and the guy to go to with any questions they had.

So when the season started and everything was going wrong, they knew it was because Perry Pearn couldn't really replace Kirk, so they fired him. When they brought in Ladouceur things started to get a little better but only to get worst afterwards. The reason? Jacques Martin didn't have all the guts to do the talking and coaching to the players himself and that's why Martin/Muller had success. Martin is a brillant hockey mind but he gives no inspiration to the players.

So they fired him and replaced Martin with Cunneyworth. They probably thought that Cunneyworth was a much better communicator than Martin and they were right. But the problem is the he lacks experience in the NHL as a coach and certainly has issues with playing systems in the D zone particularly but also in the offensive zone and the PP.

The reality is that Muller was too good for just an assistant position and that Martin was too weak in communicating with the players. Yes the team made some bad changes throughout the year and managing lacked flair but the starting point of all that was breaking the Martin/Muller system and now it has to be replaced by something more or at least as good.

Alexdaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 05:12 PM
  #2
ThaDevilGirl
Registered User
 
ThaDevilGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: YFC/YUL
Country: Portugal
Posts: 9,509
vCash: 500
Too many reasons to pinpoint the #1.

ThaDevilGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 05:16 PM
  #3
Alexdaman
Registered User
 
Alexdaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,189
vCash: 50
I think its 70% managing/coaching and 30% players (including injuries), of blame shares

Alexdaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 05:36 PM
  #4
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
I think its 70% managing/coaching and 30% players (including injuries), of blame shares
I agree with this.

I disagree that Muller would have made a difference. Muller is where he should be.

SouthernHab is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 05:43 PM
  #5
The Russian General
Força Portugal
 
The Russian General's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: MTL
Posts: 11,657
vCash: 500
For the first time in years, we had a terrible power play. Look at where we are now. For more than 5 years now, this team is built to resist 5-on-5 play and capitalize on the power play.

The Russian General is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 05:47 PM
  #6
habitue*
 
habitue*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,252
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitaine Gionta View Post
For the first time in years, we had a terrible power play. Look at where we are now. For more than 5 years now, this team is built to resist 5-on-5 play and capitalize on the power play.
Muller wasn't there 5 years ago.

You need the soldiers to have a PP. When you have a Souray, a Streit, a Markov, a Wiz, a MAB or a focused Subban, you got a PP.

habitue* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 05:56 PM
  #7
WakeUpNHL
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 628
vCash: 500
kirk not the reason...

A dman corps at the start of the year that included:

Diaz
Webber
Emelin
St Denis
Campoli
Gill
... later on Kaberle

and had Markov and Spacek injured.

That IMO is the major reason for the Habs dismal season. Both the Power Play and 5on5 suffered due to this sub-par Dman Lineup. Gauthier tried to recover from the Markov disaster but just dug himself into a deeper hole with Kaberle, he paid for his misjudgements and mistakes on the Dman lineup with his job.

WakeUpNHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 06:02 PM
  #8
Tiger Svoboda
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 127
vCash: 500
We were a crappy team before Hamrlik came here. We became a crappy team once he left. He was the glue of that defense.

Tiger Svoboda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 06:07 PM
  #9
habitue*
 
habitue*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,252
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Svoboda View Post
We were a crappy team before Hamrlik came here. We became a crappy team once he left. He was the glue of that defense.
Hamrlik should certainly had been kept this year, even if he wanted a two-year contract.(knowing Spacek and Gill were becoming UFA in July 2012)

With Markov away 90% of the season, we would had have to start the season:

Hamrlik, Spacek, and Gill on the left side

Gorges, Subban, on the right + (Emelin or Weber or Diaz on OR a real NHL #6 d-man.)

Of course, keeping WIZ would had been awesome... but not at that price.

habitue* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 06:08 PM
  #10
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,354
vCash: 500
He might've helped but our roster wasn't great to begin with.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 06:08 PM
  #11
Go Habs Go
Registered User
 
Go Habs Go's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mississauga
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,441
vCash: 500
I don't know why people are looking for A particular reason for the fail season. You can blame it all on Gauthier or losing Muller...etc. Its a combination of several things. If it were just one thing, it would've been an easy fix.

Not having Markov is never good for our Habs. We've seen for years what he means to this team.

Losing guys like Gomez and Gionta to injury. Not to mention the horrendous play of Gomez. I never liked the Gomez trade but I never expected that he plays worst then Pyatt.. Not to mention injuries by other players, we were 1st in the league for man game losses.

Horrendous year for key players like Cammalleri who ended up getting traded for future pieces.

Unable to replace Markov on the powerplay. They hoped that Kaberle could do it but we have learnt this year that he is no Markov. Actually I don't really think you can replace Markov at all unless someone is willing to give up their Prongers, Vishnovskys and Letangs.

Letting Wisniewski and Harmlik go and didn't replace them at the start of the season. They placed too much money on Markov returning at the start of the season. They should've been more careful with Markov but I don't fault them for not resigning Wiz or Hammer. Wiz was asking for way too much money while Hamrlik wanted long term. Now I agree that we should've replaced them but I agree with not resigning them. I miss Hamrlik but he hasn't been very good this year. His age is really showing.

Almost a revamp of the whole coaching staff. For the last couple of years, Martin hid the lack of talent on this team with a very conservative defensive system and leaned on great goaltending by Price and Halak.

The sudden change in team philosophy half way through the year. All of a sudden the Habs wanted to dump the smurfs and brought in guys like Bourque (and Cole at the beginning of the season). The style of the Habs completely changed almost overnight. All of a sudden Gauthier started to talk about crashing the net and how most goals scored in the league these days are garbage goals so we need more guys like Cole...etc.

Quite frankly, the moment the Habs let Martin go and hired an Anglo coach then announce that he won't be replaced until the end of the year...they always intended to tank. The english coach is the perfect scapegoat. Even the english fans are not going to support him. Its Randy freakin Cunneyworth. It was not a Habs-like move. They always want to secure a playoffs spot no matter what but yet it seems like they gave up half way through the season. Though I don't think the Habs expected that nobody really blamed Cunneyworth and all the blame fell on Gauthier.

Go Habs Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 06:10 PM
  #12
habitue*
 
habitue*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,252
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Habs Go View Post
I don't know why people are looking for A particular reason for the fail season. You can blame it all on Gauthier or losing Muller...etc. Its a combination of several things. If it were just one thing, it would've been an easy fix.

Not having Markov is never good for our Habs. We've seen for years what he means to this team.

Losing guys like Gomez and Gionta to injury. Not to mention the horrendous play of Gomez. I never liked the Gomez trade but I never expected that he plays worst then Pyatt.. Not to mention injuries by other players, we were 1st in the league for man game losses.

Horrendous year for key players like Cammalleri who ended up getting traded for future pieces.

Unable to replace Markov on the powerplay. They hoped that Kaberle could do it but we have learnt this year that he is no Markov. Actually I don't really think you can replace Markov at all unless someone is willing to give up their Prongers, Vishnovskys and Letangs.

Letting Wisniewski and Harmlik go and didn't replace them at the start of the season. They placed too much money on Markov returning at the start of the season. I can't fault the Habs for this, Wiz was asking for way too much money while Hamrlik wanted long term. Now I agree that we should've replaced them but I agree with not resigning them. I miss Hamrlik but he hasn't been very good this year. His age is really showing.

Almost a revamp of the whole coaching staff. For the last couple of years, Martin hid the lack of talent on this team with a very conservative defensive system and leaned on great goaltending by Price and Halak.

The sudden change in team philosophy half way through the year. All of a sudden the Habs wanted to dump the smurfs and brought in guys like Bourque (and Cole at the beginning of the season). The style of the Habs completely changed almost overnight.

Quite frankly, the moment the Habs let Martin go and hired an Anglo coach then announce that he won't be replaced until the end of the year...they always intended to tank. The english coach is the perfect scapegoat. Even the english fans are not going to support him. Its Randy freakin Cunneyworth. It was not a Habs-like move. They always want to secure a playoffs spot no matter what but yet it seems like they gave up half way through the season.
2 years in not really long term. Knowing that Gill and Spacek were playing their last year of their contract.

habitue* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 06:11 PM
  #13
The Russian General
Força Portugal
 
The Russian General's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: MTL
Posts: 11,657
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Muller wasn't there 5 years ago.

You need the soldiers to have a PP. When you have a Souray, a Streit, a Markov, a Wiz, a MAB or a focused Subban, you got a PP.
He was hired by the Habs June 20, 2006.

The Russian General is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 06:15 PM
  #14
habitue*
 
habitue*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,252
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He might've helped but our roster wasn't great to begin with.
Our line up WAS supposed to look like this at GAME 1 this season (without injuries)

Cammy - Gomez - Cole

Patches - Pleks - Gionta

DD- Eller - AK

Moen - Engqvist or Betts - Darche - White


Markov - Gorges

Gill - Subban

Spacek - Emelin/Weber


Price / Budaj

If ALL the guys making 4 million and more have produced OR would had been healthy, we would not be in that **** hole.


I still think that letting Hamrlik and Halpern go was a mistake.

habitue* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 06:18 PM
  #15
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Our line up WAS supposed to look like this at GAME 1 this season (without injuries)

Cammy - Gomez - Cole

Patches - Pleks - Gionta

DD- Eller - AK

Moen - Engqvist or Betts - Darche - White


Markov - Gorges

Gill - Subban

Spacek - Emelin/Weber


Price / Budaj

If ALL the guys making 4 million and more have produced OR would had been healthy, we would not be in that **** hole.


I still think that letting Hamrlik and Halpern go was a mistake.
Was Marc Savard supposed to be with the Bruins?

Not a surprise AT ALL that Markov was hurt. Fact that we didn't prepare for it is on our GM. Simple as that. BTW, won't be a surprise if Markov is hurt next year either...

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 06:35 PM
  #16
Lshap
Registered User
 
Lshap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,278
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Habs Go View Post
I don't know why people are looking for A particular reason for the fail season. You can blame it all on Gauthier or losing Muller...etc. Its a combination of several things. If it were just one thing, it would've been an easy fix.

Not having Markov is never good for our Habs. We've seen for years what he means to this team.

Losing guys like Gomez and Gionta to injury. Not to mention the horrendous play of Gomez. I never liked the Gomez trade but I never expected that he plays worst then Pyatt.. Not to mention injuries by other players, we were 1st in the league for man game losses.

Horrendous year for key players like Cammalleri who ended up getting traded for future pieces.

Unable to replace Markov on the powerplay. They hoped that Kaberle could do it but we have learnt this year that he is no Markov. Actually I don't really think you can replace Markov at all unless someone is willing to give up their Prongers, Vishnovskys and Letangs.

Letting Wisniewski and Harmlik go and didn't replace them at the start of the season. They placed too much money on Markov returning at the start of the season. They should've been more careful with Markov but I don't fault them for not resigning Wiz or Hammer. Wiz was asking for way too much money while Hamrlik wanted long term. Now I agree that we should've replaced them but I agree with not resigning them. I miss Hamrlik but he hasn't been very good this year. His age is really showing.

Almost a revamp of the whole coaching staff. For the last couple of years, Martin hid the lack of talent on this team with a very conservative defensive system and leaned on great goaltending by Price and Halak.

The sudden change in team philosophy half way through the year. All of a sudden the Habs wanted to dump the smurfs and brought in guys like Bourque (and Cole at the beginning of the season). The style of the Habs completely changed almost overnight. All of a sudden Gauthier started to talk about crashing the net and how most goals scored in the league these days are garbage goals so we need more guys like Cole...etc.

Quite frankly, the moment the Habs let Martin go and hired an Anglo coach then announce that he won't be replaced until the end of the year...they always intended to tank. The english coach is the perfect scapegoat. Even the english fans are not going to support him. Its Randy freakin Cunneyworth. It was not a Habs-like move. They always want to secure a playoffs spot no matter what but yet it seems like they gave up half way through the season. Though I don't think the Habs expected that nobody really blamed Cunneyworth and all the blame fell on Gauthier.
This is a very reasonable assessment of the year. The part that hasn't been stressed enough is the shift in philosophy - as you said - from small and fast to size and toughness. Sure, we needed to get bigger, but suddenly we were obsessing over size like it was this singular magical ingredient. Never mind the lack of talent and experience -- as long as we kept getting big guys! In the end, adding Staubitz and Bourque and getting White back gave the fans nothing more than a sugar high. There's a place for them on the team, but we need more hands that can score and shoot, not fight.

As to the PP, I also agree that the single biggest problem was the changeover of our defense. I like Diaz and Emelin but back in October they were nowhere near ready to have all that responsibility dumped on them, and their inexperience killed us. Muller would've been a scapegoat for our mess of a roster had he stayed.

Lshap is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 07:05 PM
  #17
Kingbobert
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Kingbobert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Greece
Posts: 4,656
vCash: 500
i said it before the season started that muller gone would hurt alot more than anyone thinks.

He was the passion and motivation behind this team.
Players went to war for him where they just went and played for martin.

Kingbobert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 07:08 PM
  #18
Alexdaman
Registered User
 
Alexdaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,189
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I agree with this.

I disagree that Muller would have made a difference. Muller is where he should be.
Yes he's where he should be, but it's clear that there's something wrong with the playing system. There's nothing right when your PK is 1st in the league and 5 on 5 is goals against is in the worst. I think that if Muller would of stayed ( which he wouldn't and that's good for him ) things would have been different and we would would fighting for an 8th spot.

On almost every shift it's easy to see that all the players are constantly second guessing themselves and can't stand still in the D zone


Last edited by Alexdaman: 04-02-2012 at 07:17 PM.
Alexdaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 07:17 PM
  #19
Nashy
The Honey Badger
 
Nashy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,914
vCash: 500
The true loss of Muller will never fully be known, but it was certainly a contributing factor to the **** 2011/12 season.

I think PG's knee-jerk reactions were a bigger factor. The message that was sent pre-Christmas with the firing of JM was ....we're done, boys....see ya next year.

Also, the trading of Cammalleri between periods was bush league, as was the firing of Pearn an hour and a half before the game.

Throw in some key injuries and you've got yourself a recipe for a crap season.

Nashy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 07:24 PM
  #20
Habaneros
Habs Cup champs 2010
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,619
vCash: 500
I think IF it was MULLER who step in behind the bench, it wouldn't have been so bad (english coach stuff/huge distraction) ,and the Habs at the time we 2 pts out, so i think it would have been much different result .

Muller was the "man"....and the fans liked Muller too.

Habaneros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 07:31 PM
  #21
Habaneros
Habs Cup champs 2010
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,619
vCash: 500
one other thing that hurt the Habs, is when N Devils took away Peter DeBoer from us .


That might have saved the season to be honest.

Habaneros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 07:37 PM
  #22
skipp18
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Was Marc Savard supposed to be with the Bruins?

Not a surprise AT ALL that Markov was hurt. Fact that we didn't prepare for it is on our GM. Simple as that. BTW, won't be a surprise if Markov is hurt next year either...
The Bruins knew Savard was gone and they prepared for it.
The Habs had delusions that Markov was not going to be gone for long. Gauthier was interviewed a week before the season started and said that Markov would not miss many games.
100% on the GM. He only compounded his mistake by thinking that Kaberle would somehow step in and actually help.

skipp18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 08:31 PM
  #23
DrunkenHabz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 197
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
Yeah but 1 player cannot be the cause of all this. At best only a factor under Martin/Muller he did manage to score 97 pts in 2 seasons.
Same goes for a coach. An assistant one at that. When someone's fired, life goes on.

Like the other guy said, it's a matter of many things put together, including injuries, bad management, bad chemistry, etc.

DrunkenHabz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 09:11 PM
  #24
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
Yes he's where he should be, but it's clear that there's something wrong with the playing system. There's nothing right when your PK is 1st in the league and 5 on 5 is goals against is in the worst. I think that if Muller would of stayed ( which he wouldn't and that's good for him ) things would have been different and we would would fighting for an 8th spot.

On almost every shift it's easy to see that all the players are constantly second guessing themselves and can't stand still in the D zone
The problem that we had was created by Gauthier. Even the great Muller would not have been able to fix it.

It was our D. Gill and Spacek should have been gone before the season started. Hamrlik leaving was fine. Markov should not have been signed to a long term deal. Wisniewski should have been kept. O'Brien should have been signed. Diaz should still be playing in Europe. Weber should be playing in Hamilton. Kaberle should still be with the Canes. Campoli would produce if he were paired with a tougher DMan.

That was the problem in a nutshell of why this team collapsed the way it did. We had soft D playing all year. Gross mismanagement that Muller would not have been able to do anything about.

He is better off in Carolina and I wish him luck next year.

SouthernHab is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 09:18 PM
  #25
Habaneros
Habs Cup champs 2010
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The problem that we had was created by Gauthier. Even the great Muller would not have been able to fix it.

It was our D. Gill and Spacek should have been gone before the season started. Hamrlik leaving was fine. Markov should not have been signed to a long term deal. Wisniewski should have been kept. O'Brien should have been signed. Diaz should still be playing in Europe. Weber should be playing in Hamilton. Kaberle should still be with the Canes. Campoli would produce if he were paired with a tougher DMan.

That was the problem in a nutshell of why this team collapsed the way it did. We had soft D playing all year. Gross mismanagement that Muller would not have been able to do anything about.

He is better off in Carolina and I wish him luck next year.

Ya here is,and he said in the paper the other day he don't want to come back to Montreal to coach .

Habaneros is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.