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Greatest Forwards of All Time #7

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest forward of all time? #7
Guy LaFleur 14 26.42%
Phil Esposito 4 7.55%
Stan Mikita 3 5.66%
Mark Messier 14 26.42%
Howie Morenz 5 9.43%
Mike Bossy 4 7.55%
Bobby Clarke 3 5.66%
Jaromir Jagr 3 5.66%
Steve Yzerman 3 5.66%
Bryan Trottier 0 0%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-25-2006, 01:35 AM
  #26
Skk82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tookhavlatandtanguay
Messier is a top 10 player..nuff said.
no doubt there....but at the end of the day i think jaromir jagr was better and more talented.

surely messier has better leadership and more guts, but jagr deserves consideration as one of the most skilled (and strong) forwards ever.

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Old
02-25-2006, 05:39 AM
  #27
Czech Your Math
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Jagr and Esposito are the class of this group IMO. These are all great players.

Sakic should be added, he's getting no appreciation.

Top 50 Scoring Seasons (relative to league scoring level):

Gretzky #1,2,4,5,7,8,12,15,21,31,33,43,45
Lemieux #3,6,14,17,23
Jagr #10,11,18,26,32*,44
Esposito #9,13,19,22,37
Orr #16,25,39,49,50
Sakic #20,48
Yzerman#24, (55)
Lafleur #28,35
Selanne #30,(57)
Forsberg #36,(64)
Howe #38
Dionne #42,(59)
Kariya #46
Trottier #47,(58)
(Br. Hull 53, Francis 54)

If you adjust each player's stats for the relative league scoring level, and games missed due to labor disputes and shorter schedules, right now the all-time leaders would roughly be (adjusted to 7.0 total goals per game, NHL stats):

GOALS
1. Howe ~1,100
2. Gretzky ~875
3. Br. Hull ~850
4. Esposito ~825
5. Jagr ~750
6. Bo. Hull ~750
7. Dionne ~725
8. Messier ~725
9. Yzerman ~725
10. Sakic ~700

Lemieux ~700

POINTS
1. Gretzky ~2,850
2. Howe ~2,500
3. Messier ~2,000
4. Francis ~1,900
5. Jagr ~1,825
6. Yzerman ~1,825

7. Esposito ~1,825
8. Sakic ~1,800
9. Lemieux ~1,775
10. Dionne ~1,775

End of career projections:

GOALS
1. Howe
2. Jagr or Gretzky
3.
4. Br. Hull
5. Esposito or Sakic

POINTS
1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Jagr
4. Sakic
5. Messier
6. Francis

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Old
02-25-2006, 05:57 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math
Jagr and Esposito are the class of this group IMO. These are all great players.

Sakic should be added, he's getting no appreciation.

Top 50 Scoring Seasons (relative to league scoring level):

Gretzky #1,2,4,5,7,8,12,15,21,31,33,43,45
Lemieux #3,6,14,17,23
Jagr #10,11,18,26,32*,44
Esposito #9,13,19,22,37
Orr #16,25,39,49,50
Sakic #20,48
Yzerman#24, (55)
Lafleur #28,35
Selanne #30,(57)
Forsberg #36,(64)
Howe #38
Dionne #42,(59)
Kariya #46
Trottier #47,(58)
(Br. Hull 53, Francis 54)

If you adjust each player's stats for the relative league scoring level, and games missed due to labor disputes and shorter schedules, right now the all-time leaders would roughly be (adjusted to 7.0 total goals per game, NHL stats):

GOALS
1. Howe ~1,100
2. Gretzky ~875
3. Br. Hull ~850
4. Esposito ~825
5. Jagr ~750
6. Bo. Hull ~750
7. Dionne ~725
8. Messier ~725
9. Yzerman ~725
10. Sakic ~700

Lemieux ~700

POINTS
1. Gretzky ~2,850
2. Howe ~2,500
3. Messier ~2,000
4. Francis ~1,900
5. Jagr ~1,825
6. Yzerman ~1,825

7. Esposito ~1,825
8. Sakic ~1,800
9. Lemieux ~1,775
10. Dionne ~1,775

End of career projections:

GOALS
1. Howe
2. Jagr or Gretzky
3.
4. Br. Hull
5. Esposito or Sakic

POINTS
1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Jagr
4. Sakic
5. Messier
6. Francis
Well that didn't happen now, did it? Not much point in posting that list..

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Old
02-25-2006, 02:35 PM
  #29
Hockey Outsider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math
If you adjust each player's stats for the relative league scoring level, and games missed due to labor disputes and shorter schedules, right now the all-time leaders would roughly be (adjusted to 7.0 total goals per game, NHL stats):
Out of curiosity, how did you account for the 2005 lockout?

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Old
02-25-2006, 03:12 PM
  #30
Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Out of curiosity, how did you account for the 2005 lockout?
OT: Close to the Edge. Any idea when they are touring again?
------------------------
I averaged 03/04 and 05/06. I adjusted 05/06 to a full season for averaging purposes only (and in Jagr's case the * by one of his peak seasons), but did not project current season in the adjusted current leader list. It was most difficult for players like Brett Hull, Messier, and Francis, who had points in 03/04, but retired before 05/06 (or played a few games in Hull's case). It's hard to say what they would have done in lockout year, so to be conservative I gave them no points for that season. It could be argued they should have gotten half or all of their 03/04 production, but I didn't feel that was a given by any means, so to be conservative I gave them zeros. If you averaged this season and 03/04 for those players, they might have gotten ~20 points more?

The adjustments I made were for purposes of comparison. It's easy to dismiss it as "it didn't really happen", and it's true that it didn't. It's more of a "our best guess at what would have happened, in a fair hockey world", but it's not like injuries which are a part of a player's abilities (durability), it's completely out of the player's control what the rules are (and hence what scoring levels are) and how long the schedule is (whether a few games less or a half/full season missed due to strike/lockout).

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Old
02-25-2006, 06:27 PM
  #31
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Hmm Messiers lead is falling....fast, if Messier loses this it will be a joke.

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Old
02-25-2006, 07:11 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tookhavlatandtanguay
Hmm Messiers lead is falling....fast, if Messier loses this it will be a joke.
Ugh no... Lafleur >> Messier.

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Old
02-25-2006, 08:23 PM
  #33
pappyline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tookhavlatandtanguay
Hmm Messiers lead is falling....fast, if Messier loses this it will be a joke.
You must be very young.

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Old
02-26-2006, 04:00 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tookhavlatandtanguay
Hmm Messiers lead is falling....fast, if Messier loses this it will be a joke.
It would be a joke if Messier wins. I have four fowards ahead of him who haven't been selected yet. LaFleur, Esposito, Morenz and Mikita are better than Messier. Moreover, a case could be made for Clarke and Trottier too.

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