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Old
04-03-2012, 09:31 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
There was an incident I believe in the Hawks game the other night where Fisher came in and took out Seabrook because of the unnecessary hits he was giving out. A few seconds of play later there was another scrum and Fisher pulled on Horny to get him out of there. It goes both ways and while I agree Horny takes way too much abuse, he does bring it on himself a lot of the time. Notice how he swats at goalies and that's what gets him abused much of the time. If you swing at a goalie, even if it's a tap, teams will be allowed to take care of business.
Makes me wonder why are guys do not "take care of business" when other players swat, hit, and run over Peks.
Latest example Oshie skates up runs his stick into Peka until he gets pushed back into the net. Why was he not on his head with 3 people punching and kicking him like they do Horny?
I sure hope someone tells them to get tougher or the playoffs are going to get out of hand quick if we play the Wings or Hawks.

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04-03-2012, 10:01 AM
  #27
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Ever think that Hornqvist has told the players "let me get under their skin, don't rush in to defend me all the time" Before you think that wouldn't happen, I told a teammate exactly that last week. I want the defenders mad and focussing on abusing me, I can take it, and it creates more room on the ice for the guys to move the puck.

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04-03-2012, 11:09 AM
  #28
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Hornqvist gets MORE than he asks for and more than he should expect.

Face wash, and some shoves should be expected and par for the course for what he does.

Cross checks, throat grabs, punches to the face, and dog piles are excessive. The refs should be doing more about those things when they happen.

I think the reason you don't see the team taking up for him more is a fear of going down a man. They always talk about how it's the retaliation that gets called, not the initial contact.

However, since the refs have proven loath to call it appropriately the Preds are likely going to have to take matters into their own hands to send a message early in every playoff series they play.

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04-03-2012, 11:17 AM
  #29
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I think the reason you don't see the team taking up for him more is a fear of going down a man. They always talk about how it's the retaliation that gets called, not the initial contact.

However, since the refs have proven loath to call it appropriately the Preds are likely going to have to take matters into their own hands to send a message early in every playoff series they play.
I've always assumed we don't start a huge scrum with teams that get in Peks' face because we're afraid of going on the PK for "roughing", although no one ever gets called when they start stuff with us. And also it's a double standard to let teams jump all over one of our guys then call a penalty if we "retaliate", or basically, stick up for him.

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04-03-2012, 02:15 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
I've always assumed we don't start a huge scrum with teams that get in Peks' face because we're afraid of going on the PK for "roughing", although no one ever gets called when they start stuff with us. And also it's a double standard to let teams jump all over one of our guys then call a penalty if we "retaliate", or basically, stick up for him.
Happened to Goose the other night....

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04-03-2012, 02:20 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
I've always assumed we don't start a huge scrum with teams that get in Peks' face because we're afraid of going on the PK for "roughing", although no one ever gets called when they start stuff with us. And also it's a double standard to let teams jump all over one of our guys then call a penalty if we "retaliate", or basically, stick up for him.
I've always assumed we never did it because our D-men have been undersized and / or unagressive, with the exception being Webs, and last year, SOB. You can't teach big and mean. Franson and Gill both have the size, but neither really have that nasty attitude.

One of my favorite memories from last years PO's was Kesler running Peks, and Webs basically picking him up and slamming him down on the ice, trying to get him to man up.

edit: I know Franson no longer plays for the Preds, just saying when he was here he had the size, but not the nasty.

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04-03-2012, 02:34 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
I've always assumed we don't start a huge scrum with teams that get in Peks' face because we're afraid of going on the PK for "roughing", although no one ever gets called when they start stuff with us. And also it's a double standard to let teams jump all over one of our guys then call a penalty if we "retaliate", or basically, stick up for him.
I think this is part of the reason and the guys who are aggressive and willing to fight are worried if they draw a penalty Trotz will have them "scratched" for who knows how long.

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04-03-2012, 02:44 PM
  #33
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I think this is part of the reason and the guys who are aggressive and willing to fight are worried if they draw a penalty Trotz will have them "scratched" for who knows how long.
The 03-04 team says hi.

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04-03-2012, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BourqueBourqueBork View Post
The 03-04 team says hi.
Just from this year Yip, Toots, Wilson (early season), and Fisher say hi as well. It's not like they got scratched as a result of fighting.

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04-03-2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BourqueBourqueBork View Post
The 03-04 team says hi.
lol 03-04 still current look at 11-12. Victims Smith/Wilson/Halischuck/Yip. Then you got guys who can do no wrong, do not produce for weeks, and take dumb penalties with nothing done.

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04-03-2012, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Just from this year Yip, Toots, Wilson (early season), and Fisher say hi as well. It's not like they got scratched as a result of fighting.
Yip and Wilson rarely play these days. Toots has been like that and is his role with this team. He sure doesnt do much else besides hustle his ass off flying around.
You know as any pred fan that if you play risky in any way not the liking of Trotz you will be scratched unless you are a golden stick.

If it was not the case i think some of are guys would be a lot more nastier than they are especially with the crap they get.

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04-03-2012, 02:59 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by VFL615 View Post
lol 03-04 still current look at 11-12. Victims Smith/Wilson/Halischuck/Yip. Then you got guys who can do no wrong, do not produce for weeks, and take dumb penalties with nothing done.
Can you say for certain that they are being scratched for taking penalties?

Smith had his production tail off dramatically. He brings a lot of effort...but it just seems like he's snake bit lately. He was also most effective on the power play early in the season...now it would be hard to justify him taking any one of Fisher, Erat, Kostitsyn (x2), Legwand, Radulov, or Hornqvist's spots there.

Yip is a role playing grinder that only adds a meager amount of offense. I like the effort, but I think I would only ice him when we're facing a big forward lineup.

Wilson...well...I don't think he should be scratched, but I think a lot of the reasoning is that he's not playing to his potential, and his lack of attention to detail is well-noted.

Halischuk is the only one that confuses me. I would love to see him out there every night...no matter if he's scoring or not. Him and Bourque are my two favorite young forwards right now.

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04-03-2012, 03:04 PM
  #38
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Wilson's fight was Oct 20th. Saying he's scratched now as a result makes no sense. Now ... saying he's scratched for specified details with his play is another story altogether. Smith started hot, but cooled down after about six weeks in the league. I doubt we see Gaustad scratched for the penalty taken after the scrum around the net.

Hornqvist deserves a lot of the attention he gets after the play. He's constantly running his mouth and doing little things to upset the other team. The full force crosschecks and punches are too much to see and not call though.

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04-03-2012, 03:06 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by VFL615 View Post
Yip and Wilson rarely play these days. Toots has been like that and is his role with this team. He sure doesnt do much else besides hustle his ass off flying around.
You know as any pred fan that if you play risky in any way not the liking of Trotz you will be scratched unless you are a golden stick.

If it was not the case i think some of are guys would be a lot more nastier than they are especially with the crap they get.
I don't think fighting is risky with Trotz, per se. Otherwise McGrattan wouldn't even be on the roster.

I think fighting for no reason, or taking unnecessary penalties (like Tootoo used to do often) is what gets you in the dog house.

Shea Weber can certainly fight...and he did a lot more as a younger player. But now his value is too high for the team to want to miss 5 solid minutes of his presence. He's an important piece. So if, say Weber were to get in a fight with a much lesser player on the other team (who roughed up Hornqvist, for instance), it would end up hurting our team more.

Look at Zdeno Chara. His penalty minutes are down, too. Why? Because he knows his value to his team doesn't lie with his fighting ability.

Also, as 101st pointed out...we have Fisher. Remember last year's playoffs? He fought Getzlaf. That didn't seem to get him benched. And that was in the freakin' playoffs.

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04-03-2012, 03:09 PM
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And yes, I would like to see the guys stick up for Hornqvist a bit more...but there have been some good points made in this thread. Remember, Hornqvist still has 25 goals, and has been the direct cause of many more with his screening in front of the net, and drawing defenders like flies to a bug zapper.

I do seem to remember Gill sticking up for him after Ben Eager hit him with a late check. But Gill didn't fight him. Why? Because Eager got a penalty, and we went on the power play.

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04-03-2012, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by VFL615 View Post
Yip and Wilson rarely play these days. Toots has been like that and is his role with this team. He sure doesnt do much else besides hustle his ass off flying around.
You know as any pred fan that if you play risky in any way not the liking of Trotz you will be scratched unless you are a golden stick.

If it was not the case i think some of are guys would be a lot more nastier than they are especially with the crap they get.
Am I the only one that really has no problem with Yip on the 4th line? I get that it's crowded down there but I don't think he was nearly as worthless as some people seem to think. But with that said I guess you can't really justify moving anyone out of the lineup for him. Even if we wanted to.

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04-03-2012, 03:16 PM
  #42
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Am I the only one that really has no problem with Yip on the 4th line? I get that it's crowded down there but I don't think he was nearly as worthless as some people seem to think. But with that said I guess you can't really justify moving anyone out of the lineup for him. Even if we wanted to.
I don't have a problem with Yip. For the most part, I think he's been a pleasant surprise.

But if it comes down between playing Yip and Bourque or Halischuk, I'll take the latter two every time.

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04-03-2012, 03:16 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by BourqueBourqueBork View Post
I don't think fighting is risky with Trotz, per se. Otherwise McGrattan wouldn't even be on the roster.

I think fighting for no reason, or taking unnecessary penalties (like Tootoo used to do often) is what gets you in the dog house.

Shea Weber can certainly fight...and he did a lot more as a younger player. But now his value is too high for the team to want to miss 5 solid minutes of his presence. He's an important piece. So if, say Weber were to get in a fight with a much lesser player on the other team (who roughed up Hornqvist, for instance), it would end up hurting our team more.

Look at Zdeno Chara. His penalty minutes are down, too. Why? Because he knows his value to his team doesn't lie with his fighting ability.

Also, as 101st pointed out...we have Fisher. Remember last year's playoffs? He fought Getzlaf. That didn't seem to get him benched. And that was in the freakin' playoffs.
Yeah i agree fighting alone is not going to get a player benched and probably hasnt but i think the guys are a little tight worried about getting scratched or moved lines if they mess up. Wilson is not going to get any better and learn his role defensively sitting on the bench. It takes scars and ice time to do that. The same goes with Smith he is not going to be learning anything sitting on the bench. If the guy had goals for every time he hit the post he would be up in rankings with the other rookies.
Sure him or Wilson are not the greatest defensively but i do not find are current roster doing much on stopping people either with the exception of the Detroit game.

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04-03-2012, 03:20 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
Am I the only one that really has no problem with Yip on the 4th line? I get that it's crowded down there but I don't think he was nearly as worthless as some people seem to think. But with that said I guess you can't really justify moving anyone out of the lineup for him. Even if we wanted to.
you are not alone, i like Yip, he does his role well. But i HATE seeeing wilson scratchedthat kid plays just as hard as any pred on the ice. busts his ass and has the skills to boot.

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04-03-2012, 03:20 PM
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I don't have a problem with Yip. For the most part, I think he's been a pleasant surprise.

But if it comes down between playing Yip and Bourque or Halischuk, I'll take the latter two every time.
I agree. Toots playing over Halischuk, Wilson, Smith, Yip, or Spaling i do not agree with though. I also think Bulls is not an every game player and him and Ellis should be getting the same amount of time.

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04-03-2012, 03:22 PM
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you are not alone, i like Yip, he does his role well. But i HATE seeeing wilson scratchedthat kid plays just as hard as any pred on the ice. busts his ass and has the skills to boot.
I agree and he is not going to learn and get wise sitting on the bench because he is not a Fisher or Erat on defense.

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04-03-2012, 03:48 PM
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Yeah i agree fighting alone is not going to get a player benched and probably hasnt but i think the guys are a little tight worried about getting scratched or moved lines if they mess up.
SOME guys have to worry about being scratched. Not everyone. It took a long time to healthy scratch Tootoo...and he's had quite a few questionable plays (mainly with the puck, rather than penalty-wise) to warrant that.

Guys who have to worry about being scratched nightly:
-Matt Halischuk (for some strange reason)
-Brian McGrattan
-Craig Smith
-Brandon Yip
-Ryan Ellis
-Jack Hillen
-Francis Bouillon

Mostly rookies and borderline NHLers. I didn't include Wilson, because there is still some question if he has truly been a healthy scratch for all of these recent games. I think there are only a handful of players Trotz will play if they aren't close to 100%. Bouillon is usually a starter, but he's usually the first to go if Trotz wants to use Ellis or Hillen.

Guys who might be scratched if they make dumb penalties, their production tails off, or they lose focus:
-Gabriel Bourque*
-Nick Spaling
-Jordin Tootoo
-Colin Wilson
-Roman Josi

*Considering Bourque has been a regular fixture since the addition of Gaustad, Kostitsyn, and Radulov, I'd say it's safe to say he has earned a spot in the lineup at this point.

Guys that won't be scratched if they are 100% healthy:
-Martin Erat
-Mike Fisher
-Paul Gaustad
-Patric Hornqvist
-Andrei Kostitsyn
-Sergei Kostitsyn
-David Legwand
-Alex Radulov
-Hal Gill
-Kevin Klein
-Ryan Suter
-Shea Weber

Quote:
Originally Posted by VFL615 View Post
Wilson is not going to get any better and learn his role defensively sitting on the bench. It takes scars and ice time to do that. The same goes with Smith he is not going to be learning anything sitting on the bench. If the guy had goals for every time he hit the post he would be up in rankings with the other rookies.
Sure him or Wilson are not the greatest defensively but i do not find are current roster doing much on stopping people either with the exception of the Detroit game.
I think Wilson and Smith are very different cases. While they might be the same age...Wilson has a season and a half of NHL experience on Smith. I think Smith is just having the typical struggles a rookie has. He just happens to be having them towards the end of the season rather than the beginning.

Wilson has a bit less of an excuse, but I agree it's not helping him to be riding the pine. It just happens that this is a time of year where we have to be focused on winning, not player development.

As of right now, I would make the argument that the team is better with Bourque and Halischuk over the more talented Wilson and Smith. Smith will be fine...but he'll probably not see a whole lot of ice time until next October. Wilson....could be back at any time...but I do wonder if he'll become trade bait in the off season.

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04-03-2012, 03:55 PM
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I agree. Toots playing over Halischuk, Wilson, Smith, Yip, or Spaling i do not agree with though. I also think Bulls is not an every game player and him and Ellis should be getting the same amount of time.
I'll agree with that.

Toots had a fantastic first part of the season...but lately has been so-so. He's being trying to be pretty, when we all know he needs to be ugly. The soft passes are killing me.

Toots deserves ice time...but should probably be in the rotation rather than an every night starter IMO.

I also would like to see Ellis get more time. Now that Josi is back and healthy, I think we can afford to match Ellis with Gill or Klein (I'd rather not see a Klein-Gill pairing...and pairing two rookies might be a bad idea at this point in the season) for a few games.

Hard to knock Cube's effort as of late...especially on the offensive end...but we all know Ellis brings a great shot and much better puck handling.

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04-03-2012, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BourqueBourqueBork View Post
SOME guys have to worry about being scratched. Not everyone. It took a long time to healthy scratch Tootoo...and he's had quite a few questionable plays (mainly with the puck, rather than penalty-wise) to warrant that.

Guys who have to worry about being scratched nightly:
-Matt Halischuk (for some strange reason)
-Brian McGrattan
-Craig Smith
-Brandon Yip
-Ryan Ellis
-Jack Hillen
-Francis Bouillon

Mostly rookies and borderline NHLers. I didn't include Wilson, because there is still some question if he has truly been a healthy scratch for all of these recent games. I think there are only a handful of players Trotz will play if they aren't close to 100%. Bouillon is usually a starter, but he's usually the first to go if Trotz wants to use Ellis or Hillen.

Guys who might be scratched if they make dumb penalties, their production tails off, or they lose focus:
-Gabriel Bourque*
-Nick Spaling
-Jordin Tootoo
-Colin Wilson
-Roman Josi

*Considering Bourque has been a regular fixture since the addition of Gaustad, Kostitsyn, and Radulov, I'd say it's safe to say he has earned a spot in the lineup at this point.

Guys that won't be scratched if they are 100% healthy:
-Martin Erat
-Mike Fisher
-Paul Gaustad
-Patric Hornqvist
-Andrei Kostitsyn
-Sergei Kostitsyn
-David Legwand
-Alex Radulov
-Hal Gill
-Kevin Klein
-Ryan Suter
-Shea Weber



I think Wilson and Smith are very different cases. While they might be the same age...Wilson has a season and a half of NHL experience on Smith. I think Smith is just having the typical struggles a rookie has. He just happens to be having them towards the end of the season rather than the beginning.

Wilson has a bit less of an excuse, but I agree it's not helping him to be riding the pine. It just happens that this is a time of year where we have to be focused on winning, not player development.

As of right now, I would make the argument that the team is better with Bourque and Halischuk over the more talented Wilson and Smith. Smith will be fine...but he'll probably not see a whole lot of ice time until next October. Wilson....could be back at any time...but I do wonder if he'll become trade bait in the off season.
No way toots should be playing over Smith and Wilson though. I think if anyone can get a hot stick and become a factor in a lower line it is Smith. Look at the points he has and then count up the points he could have if everytime he hit the post this year was a goal. With that and more playing time he would probably be leading the team in points. If he can get that shot 1% more accurate i believe he could be a huge factor in the playoffs.

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04-03-2012, 04:15 PM
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No way toots should be playing over Smith and Wilson though. I think if anyone can get a hot stick and become a factor in a lower line it is Smith. Look at the points he has and then count up the points he could have if everytime he hit the post this year was a goal. With that and more playing time he would probably be leading the team in points. If he can get that shot 1% more accurate i believe he could be a huge factor in the playoffs.
I'd like to point out that a good chunk of both Smith and Wilson's points came from the power play (6G 7A for Smith, 5G 7A for Wilson)...and it isn't very likely that either would see much if any power play time with the addition of Kostitsyn and Radulov. Take away their power play production and they're right there with Spaling and Halischuk points-wise...and a bit below Jordin Tootoo.

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