The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
Why are Professional Sports Leagues Capped at around 30 teams?
The NHL can barely stay alfoat financialy and with the talent pool with 30 teams. If anything idealy the NHL would have 20 teams.
No 20 teams would not be ideal. This isn't the 70s. The league has very few major finaicial issues. Ideally the NHL will have 32-34 teams within the next 20 years.
The NFL could probably support 4 or 5 teams in Canada, realistically.
Nope. The NFL would always be behind the NHL in popularity in a Canadian city so, other than maybe Toronto, there is not enough demand to have long-term success.
Most Canadians will spend their money on hockey tickets and merchandise over football.
Nope. The NFL would always be behind the NHL in popularity in a Canadian city so, other than maybe Toronto, there is not enough demand to have long-term success.
Most Canadians will spend their money on hockey tickets and merchandise over football.
The NFL is NOT a money spent by the fans league. It's a league fueled by it's TV contract and advertising. If people are watching on TV on Sundays, during times the NHL isn't typically on to begin with, then it can be successful. That's really all that's needed.
The NFL is NOT a money spent by the fans league. It's a league fueled by it's TV contract and advertising. If people are watching on TV on Sundays, during times the NHL isn't typically on to begin with, then it can be successful. That's really all that's needed.
This. That is the whole reason the Jacksonville Jaguars still exist.
The NFL is NOT a money spent by the fans league. It's a league fueled by it's TV contract and advertising. If people are watching on TV on Sundays, during times the NHL isn't typically on to begin with, then it can be successful. That's really all that's needed.
You think enough Canadians would watch on TV to make it worthwhile? I doubt it.
Hockey is king. People will watch Saturday night hockey over Sunday NFL in every corner of Canada. NFL is so lucrative in the US because people would rather watch it than anything else. Not the case in Canada.
The only way an NFL team makes sense in Canada is if you can prove that the rights fees paid by Canadian networks would increase because of one or multiple Canadian teams in the league.
The Super Bowl does really well in Canada. But the average game I believe still does fewer viewers than the average CFL game. Which is lower than hockey games on Saturday night.
This. That is the whole reason the Jacksonville Jaguars still exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
You think enough Canadians would watch on TV to make it worthwhile? I doubt it.
Hockey is king. People will watch Saturday night hockey over Sunday NFL in every corner of Canada. NFL is so lucrative in the US because people would rather watch it than anything else. Not the case in Canada.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick
The only way an NFL team makes sense in Canada is if you can prove that the rights fees paid by Canadian networks would increase because of one or multiple Canadian teams in the league.
The Super Bowl does really well in Canada. But the average game I believe still does fewer viewers than the average CFL game. Which is lower than hockey games on Saturday night.
Considering the fact NFL and NHL games are on sunday and saturday respectively I think there would be enough Canadians for Both. Viewership goes up when people have a personal interest.
The Raptors have been around for 15+ years. Basketball is not overly popular on TV across Canada.
Plus, the point is will ratings increase enough to justify a massive increase in rights fees. Impossible to know, but I would think the NFL would be wise to focus on other markets before they put a team in Toronto.
I would love a team in Toronto, but I dont think it makes a ton of business sense for the NFL. Unless the Bills need a new home, and then the team would stay in the same TV market for the people in upstate NY.
The Raptors have been around for 15+ years. Basketball is not overly popular on TV across Canada.
Plus, the point is will ratings increase enough to justify a massive increase in rights fees. Impossible to know, but I would think the NFL would be wise to focus on other markets before they put a team in Toronto.
I would love a team in Toronto, but I dont think it makes a ton of business sense for the NFL. Unless the Bills need a new home, and then the team would stay in the same TV market for the people in upstate NY.
Raptors were as high as #6 in attendance during the T-Mac/Vinsanity days. Its the on-court performance thats held them back
There isn't any cap. Sports leagues expand as the economic support allows. The US and Canada got bigger and richer in the last 40 years so professional sports leagues expanded to capture that extra income. Same thing with college sports which have grown tremendously.
The populations of both Canada and the US continue to grow. And eventually, someday the economy will start growing again.
If and when the leagues feel there is extra money to be made, they will expand again.
Leagues like MLB and NHL rely more heavily on ticket sales than the NFL or NBA. The NFL is the outlier since so much of it's revenue is from national TV deals. With NFL at such a high in viewership, it's not clear that adding more NFL teams will increase TV viewership much. LA is the exception and the NFL clearly is determined to get back in the LA market.
Otherwise it's an issue of Metropolitan GDP. When a metro area hits a certain GDP then it becomes a potential market. MLB requires the most disposable income to support with so many games per year.
Many metros are still growing. Phoenix is projected to add 3 million+ by 2030. Atlanta is also set to add 3 million+ by 2030. As is Houston.
Some smaller cities will grow into the size of major metro areas by 2030.
Some of the cities that will add 1 million+ people to their existing population by 2030:
Canada is expected to keep growing as well. Vancouver is projected to add nearly a million people in the next 20 years.
Of course, both the US and Canada's growth is largely from immigrants. The native born population will grow much more slowly and be much older. The immigrants might bring preferences for different sports. And an aging population might have less interest in attending live events.
Many of the growing cities that only can support one or two pro teams now will be able to support two or three in the future. And several will become a giant megalopolis capable of supporting all of the available sports.
The US is projected to add 60 million people by 2030. Roughly a 20% increase. And all the leagues (pro and amateur) will be trying to get those extra dollars.
Immigrants to north america tend to eventually adopt the north american sports. My dad was 40 when he landed in Canada. He became a Blue Jays and Leafs fan pretty fast. Then when work took him to the states he picked up football.
Just look at Paul Kariya, Jerome Iginla, Georges Laraque, etc. All children of immigrants from non-hockey countries who became NHL players.
No 20 teams would not be ideal. This isn't the 70s. The league has very few major finaicial issues. Ideally the NHL will have 32-34 teams within the next 20 years.
Are you kidding? The league has never had more teams facing bankruptcy. And the talent pool has never been more thin.
Immigrants to north america tend to eventually adopt the north american sports. My dad was 40 when he landed in Canada. He became a Blue Jays and Leafs fan pretty fast. Then when work took him to the states he picked up football.
Just look at Paul Kariya, Jerome Iginla, Georges Laraque, etc. All children of immigrants from non-hockey countries who became NHL players.
Well, some do and some don't. Depends a lot on the particulars of the individual and the immigrant community they are a part of. It's very hard to generalize from any particular individual.
As a simple example, last summer Univision was the highest rated American broadcast of the night for a Mexico vs Honduras soccer game for adults 18-49 (the key tv demo). Univision beat ABC, CBS, NBC, and Fox.
Mexican soccer gets excellent tv ratings in the US nowadays. That didn't use to happen.
Mexican immigrants to the US have kept more in touch with the sports preferences of Mexico because of the proximity of Mexico and the sheer size of the Mexican immigrant community which makes it profitable to operate TV networks like Univision.
I'm not criticizing this, it's just a fact. If tens of millions of Indians and Pakistanis move here in a short time frame then TV networks will start getting great ratings for cricket, I'm sure. Individuals without a large cohort of fellow immigrants from their home culture tend to assimilate faster. They are forced to.
The rate of assimilation of immigrants varies a lot. Modern communications tools also allow immigrants to stay more connected to their old culture nowadays. I have many immigrants in my extended family and some choose to stay in their cultural ghetto and some choose to embrace the wider culture. Where I live there is a large Vietnamese community. One relative of mine moved here very young but still speaks horrible Engish because she chose to remain cocooned in the Vietnamese community. Another came here much older from Thailand, but has no noticeable accent because she embraced American pop culture. But it's also because there aren't enough Thais where I live to spend your day just speaking Thai. There are enough Vietnamese, you can live, work, and function near me and only speak Vietnamese.
On the rate of language assimilation, the statistics I've seen show the two groups that adopt English the slowest are Mexican and Chinese immigrants. Mexicans because there is such a large Spanish-speaking population and Chinese because English is just really hard to learn for Chinese immigrants (and vice-versa). But by the 3rd generation Chinese-Americans have significantly higher rates of English usage than Mexican-Americans.
Long story short, assimilation depends on a # of factors of the individual and the size of their immigrant community.
In terms of the future of sports franchises, I imagine MLB is hoping the large # of east asian immigrants to Vancouver will, at the margin, increase the demand for baseball. Baseball has tended to do quite well in east asian societies - Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and China all have domestic leagues.
Of course dont mention that Toronto was at 50+k for each game, and that is around 90 percent capacity.
Rogers papered the house.
I wasn't alone but no way I was paying $300 for a decent seat, let alone $50 for a 500 level seat.
However, I have attended 4 games:
08: Dolphins beat the Bills. Free tickets courtesy of Rogers.
09: Jets beat the Bills. Free tickets courtesy of Rogers.
10: Bears beat the Bills. Free tickets courtesy of Rogers.
11: Bills beat the Redskins. We had access to a corporate box, but we were also offered free tickets, courtesy of Rogers.
The Bills series has been a flop. I received my comps from a buddy who works for Rogers. He made a comment that the Jets game (2009) sold just under 37,000 tickets.
The Bills aren't popular in Toronto. In 08, 09 & 10, the crowd was anti Bills. Against the Redskins, it was more of a pro Bills crowd. Pretty sure that the Bills' players don't view a Skydome/Toronto game as a home game. At least that's the impression I got from listening to their sound bytes on radio and tv.
I don't see the NFL coming to Toronto - a couple of immediate obstacles: issues on tv revenues, new stadium issues($), and border issues (felons).
On Toronto and the Bills. Wouldn't Toronto interest in the NFL be vastly higher for a proper Toronto franchise? The Bills belong to Buffalo.
It's a pride issue. City and national pride. Toronto is a famous, world class city. Buffalo is not. It's not a surprise that a city like Toronto won't fully embrace a team from a lesser nearby city, and an American one at that.
Chicago won't embrace teams from Milwaukee. San Diego wouldn't be satisfied with a team in Tijuana. DC wanted a separate baseball team from Baltimore.
Big cities like Toronto usually want everything in their own name. The New Jersey Nets are gonna move to Brooklyn cause New Yorkers just wouldn't support a team named after New Jersey. New York and Toronto are the big dogs and want big dog respect.
Are you kidding? The league has never had more teams facing bankruptcy. And the talent pool has never been more thin.
Agreed.
Coyotes, Devils, Blues, Blue Jackets, Islanders, Lightning, Panthers and the Stars have all made news in 2011-2012 re: negative financial issues.
On the issue of the talent pool, I'm all in favour of contraction.
Get rid of the slugs, start with buying out 4 teams and get rid of the weakest 92 players and the 10 weakest officials. NHL provide subsidies to it weaker franchises through revenue sharing, stop the charity. The league needs to start work on plans to pull teams out of underperforming markets. The NHL isn't the NFL.
I'm tired of watching garbage hockey, that includes my Maple Leafs.
As a matter of clarity, Toronto isn't an underperforming market, but the Maple Leaf hockey club IS an underperforming club, icing far too many slugs. And that's because we've had lousy management & sub par scouting. We now have Brian Burke making bad personnel decisions year after year after year.
Are you kidding? The league has never had more teams facing bankruptcy. And the talent pool has never been more thin.
If you ask people actually involved in the game, the talent pool is the deepest it's ever been. As for bankrupcy, teams have always struggled. But in the past, they were able to take it out on their rosters, which is why the cap floor is going to be an issue going into CBA negotiations- the fixed range as opposed to a percentage range will probably change. Or did you think the Winnipeg jets, drawing 11k in a 14k stadium with a roster being payed about a quarter of what their competitors were, were healthy financially?
In terms of franchise stability, the past decade or so has been the golden years. And every issue teams are having right now is due to significant outside factors. The Coyotes were basically robbed by their previous owner, the owners of the thrashers basically TRIED to kill them...
On Toronto and the Bills. Wouldn't Toronto interest in the NFL be vastly higher for a proper Toronto franchise?
There's some who present and support that sentiment.
However, I think whoever attempts to bring/own an NFL franchise in Toronto is going to be looking for significant gov't contributions to build a proper / appropriate stadium. Not gonna happen! I don't envision municipal, provincial or federal gov'ts chipping in, especially when tax $ are so stretched.
Personally, I don't care.
I'm a Redskins fan, I get down to DC a couple of games and take in a couple of road games every season.
With regard to Buffalo, I don't see it as a lesser city. It has just as many warts as Toronto, and/or any other NHL / NFL city. I visit western New York often, do a lot of cross border shopping. Very friendly area.
Are you kidding? The league has never had more teams facing bankruptcy. And the talent pool has never been more thin.
What are you talking about? How many teams are in bankrupcy? How is the talent pool thin?
No matter what era, there will be a few teams that are in financial trouble. That is no different now, but now the league overall is as profitable and rich as it's ever been. The talent pool is very deep and it's only getting deeper. You ask anyone involved with the NHL and they would agree with those.
You clearly don't know much about hockeys history as the league suffered actual financial pain about 10 years ago, when teams like Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, Pittsburgh and more all on the verge of moving or folding. There is not a single team like that now. Phoenix may move but they are in no danger of no longer existing, as there is numerous markets ready to take them. The rich teams (Who's number continues to grow) have more money than ever.
The talent pool is extremely strong. There is so many more options for players to develop from, and all those spots are being filled. Theres players being drafted in the second or third rounds that would have went in the first round 10 years ago. The talent pool is deeper than it's even been.
Anyone who thinks the league is in a bad financial situation and has "the thinnest" talent pool ever frankly doesn't have a clue what they're talking about.
With regard to Buffalo, I don't see it as a lesser city. It has just as many warts as Toronto, and/or any other NHL / NFL city. I visit western New York often, do a lot of cross border shopping. Very friendly area.
I didn't mean to insult Buffalo. Everyone I've ever met from Buffalo has been very kind.
I just mean that objectively, in terms like population, metro GDP, corporate HQs, and the like Toronto is just in a different class. Toronto is just bigger, richer, and more internationally known than Buffalo.
Toronto is pretty universally regarded as the most powerful and important city in all of Canada. It's the biggest and richest. Whereas Buffalo is about the 50th biggest metro in the US.
Immigrants to north america tend to eventually adopt the north american sports. My dad was 40 when he landed in Canada. He became a Blue Jays and Leafs fan pretty fast. Then when work took him to the states he picked up football.
Just look at Paul Kariya, Jerome Iginla, Georges Laraque, etc. All children of immigrants from non-hockey countries who became NHL players.
Ah, but remember that we're in an increasingly globalized community. There was a time when, say, a Trinidadian immigrant to Toronto would have no choice to get into hockey and baseball... now he can watch cricket in the comfort of his home and get his kids in cricket leagues.
Immigrants won't stop assimilating, but it's not going to be like it was in the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotchex
The rate of assimilation of immigrants varies a lot. Modern communications tools also allow immigrants to stay more connected to their old culture nowadays. I have many immigrants in my extended family and some choose to stay in their cultural ghetto and some choose to embrace the wider culture. Where I live there is a large Vietnamese community. One relative of mine moved here very young but still speaks horrible Engish because she chose to remain cocooned in the Vietnamese community. Another came here much older from Thailand, but has no noticeable accent because she embraced American pop culture. But it's also because there aren't enough Thais where I live to spend your day just speaking Thai. There are enough Vietnamese, you can live, work, and function near me and only speak Vietnamese.
And to add, there are plenty of immigrants who straddle the line... I have a friend whose father immigrated to Canada from India in the 60's, he speaks Hindi at home and watches cricket and so on, but he's also a big Leafs fan and is a rock music fanatic.
Last edited by Brodie: 04-11-2012 at 10:50 PM.
Reason: I could not remember which one it was!
