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Two years of tanking and we are Stanley Cup contenders sooner than later

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Old
04-03-2012, 09:49 PM
  #76
Lshap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I posted a thread in the summer of last year arguing that the change from Hamrlik/Wisniewski to Markov/Gorges would weaken the team, and the vast majority of posters said I was wrong.

It was a huge difference. Losing Hamrlik was the equivalent of a baseball team losing their ace pitcher.
I really liked Hamrlik and Wiz and probably would've agreed with you that their departure would take us down a peg. But all the way to the bottom? And remember - we gained Eric Cole and benefited from a coming-out year for Pacioretty. No matter how you slice it, there was no logical way to predict we'd implode so completely and end up in the bottom three.

Which is exactly why there will be no logical reason for next year's radical turnaround. My prediction is we'll float back up to where we should be - anywhere from 9th to 7th - taking us nowhere near a tank. That's a good thing, because no team wants to engender a culture of losing -- that state of mind can sink into the fabric and be hard to remove. We want to start climbing back up next year, just as long as we're doing it carefully and slowly. We need to become more informed when it comes to trades, more patient when it comes to prospects, and less addicted to instant gratification when it comes to signing free agents. Not coincidentally, those three things are determined by the guy in the GM's seat.

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Old
04-03-2012, 10:10 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Jsweenie View Post
E certainly could finish last next season. This year wasn't an anomaly, it was a quick free agent rebuild a few years back falling apart. Cammy played himself out of town, gill and spacek got dealt, gionta has been hurt and thus ineffective all year and Gomez has been... Gomez. the wheels of what was supposed to be the nucleus of this team fell right off this year. Don't think it will be as brutal come October but if some strong support players aren't brought in then it might be a similar result of one good first line, plekanec, gorges and subban, followed by a lot of mediocrity
Yep.

What this team needs more then anything is a philosophical change.

No more quick fixes.

No more scapegoating coaches.

No more roof patching.

If this is to turn around the right way, it starts with drafting and development.

Injuries can always be used as an excuse but what they really do is reveal the strength of the depth chart. (or lack of same).

I would hope that fans stop listening to the media element that starts speculating on firings before the season even starts. It is usually from people who have never played or coached in the league.

Molson talked about stability and he was right. But he should have acknowledged that firing coaches in mid season has nothing to do with stability.

Best case scenario is that people with a long range plan and vision are hired this summer and Molson allows them to do what is necessary to set the organization back on track. And everyone, fans, media ownership has some patience. To really build this into a top tier organization can't be done overnight.

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04-03-2012, 10:34 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
That thinking is what is making the Islanders suffer. They have Tavares and Grabner and still can't make it to an 8th spot. Best way to go far is to systematicly make the playoffs. Players aren't numbers they are people and when they lose they get worst and when they win they get better as simple as that. We tanked this year but there's no reason we shall tank next. I'd prefer finishing 9th next season than 15th.
I wouldn't.

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04-03-2012, 10:54 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Prairie Habs View Post
You think the owners of those empty seats at our home games didn't try and sell their tickets?
You're talking the end of the season with 5 games left and playoff eliminated.

Don't tell me in mid-December, if we are the 3rd worst team in the NHL, that those seats won't be filled.

It will take a winless team for fans to have large amounts of empty seasons for large parts of the season (which is what would actually impact Molson).

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Old
04-03-2012, 10:57 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Inf1n1te View Post
Fans won't accept back to back tanking. Simply look at the way our interest for hockey has dropped in the last few weeks.
They've accepted a decade and a half of mediocrity. They accepted a period of something like 3 out of 5 years out of the playoffs... they'll accept it.
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
Won't happen. This year was abysmal and we aren't in 1st overall pick territory (as in Columbus is much worse). No way we land MacKinnion with Price in net.
Price was in net this year.
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Originally Posted by 76ftw View Post
loooooooooooool no way this will happen. Do you think Molson, from a fans perspective, is going to put up with two seasons that are this god awful?
What's he going to do? Go sign Ollie Jokinen? Is that going to make us better?

We're not getting Suter man.
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I don't think the Habs can ever win with a Stanley Cup with Pacioretty, Price, Subban, Eller and Emelin as the youth core.

If we win a cup, it's with those players as the veteran core leading a group of impressive youth.

Where can we get these impressive youth?

The draft.

*****

Alternatively, we can strive for 8th place and never win a cup with Price.
I think you're right. Then again we're getting a good pick this year so that will help.

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Old
04-03-2012, 11:07 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Exactly !

RDS ratings are a good 200,000-300,000 less viewers per game on average. It will be harder to sell ads

And for Mr.Molson, it will become a huge task filling the Bell Centre and selling beer and ho dogs with a bad on ice products.

Next GM and coach MUST win a.s.a.p. !!!

And I cannot imagine how it's gona be when / IF Nordiques are back .....

By the way, Molson is losing 15 MILIONS in revenue because of the playoffs missing !
Molson could lose millions more if he continues to assemble bubble teams. We could've easily missed the playoffs more than we have.

As for RDS, they aren't going anywhere. The Habs will continue to make money by the fistful regardless of the playoffs just like the Leafs do. Unlike the small market teams we actually have this luxury and could use it to rebuild.
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Originally Posted by HabsSlappy View Post
I am willing to sacrifice another year or two in order to become a long term contender.
I do not want to see this team become another Burke Era Leaf Team. You see what the quick fix does. We have been living quick fixes for years and look where it got us.

This is the perfect time to finish out of the playoffs for a few years. A new GM will automatically be given one or two years to rebuild the club and if he can come in and manage expectations, he won't be killed in the media for it. And people will show up to the games. They are the only ticket in town (besides the Impact) and people are always going to support the Habs. It is not like we are in Phoenix.

I am of the strong belief that we should be dealing some players like Plekanec, Gionta, Markov, Kaberle, Bourque, Weber, Diaz, Gomez (lol)....pile up draft picks and prospects. Sign some mid-tier UFAs to short contracts in order to fill the void from the players that are traded. Guys that can stick up for the young players and that can teach them how to act and play at the NHL level. These guys could be attractive to other teams at the trade deadline as well.

We already have a first and 3 seconds in 2013, add a few more 2nd round or better picks and we are in good shape to create a big boost of talent for the next 10 years.

I don't think we are a horrible team and have taken one on the chin this year due to ineptitude and injuries. Guys like Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Eller, Desharnais, Emelin, Gorges, Cole, Leblanc, White, Moen are the kind of guys that you can build around. A good mix of veteran leadership and young exuberance.

I am just scared to death that Burke 2.0 comes into Montreal and we are in the same position in 4 years.
That would suck.
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Where is the guarantee that we get Mackinnon? If it were that simple I think the other teams would also be pursuing this route.

Next year we'll be back with a vengeance. Unless Damphousse becomes GM.
Can't tank on purpose for Mackinnon. It won't work and is a crazy strategy.

I'll settle for a rebuild though. No more quick fixes. Deal some vets for picks and prospects... that absolutely makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
Best example is Detroit. Have made the playoffs for 21 years and still strong!
You mean the Detroit Dead Things right? They drafted high for years and landed one of the best players of all-time out of it. NJ, Pittsburgh and Colorado all did the same thing.
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Tampa won the cup with 1st overall Lecavalier..who they got from tanking. Now they have Stamkos who can lead them to a cup. We don't have anybody close to that.

Carolina won the cup with 2nd overall Eric Stall...who they got from tanking.

Anaheim hasn't really tanked until this season. I mean they had the Hart Trophy winner last year.

Atlanta has sucked...no doubt. Bad organization and bad hockey city. Should be better in WInnepeg.

NYI have tanked alot. They have a good nucleus now with Tavares and probably Dumba.

Minnesota hasn't really tanked to a top 3 pick. Mostly top 10.

Columbus is crap. Same problem as Atlanta. Bad hockey market where no real hockey people want to be.
Don't forget Toronto... they dealt their picks to Boston. How's that working out?

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Old
04-03-2012, 11:26 PM
  #82
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Just thought I'd share....if Anaheim wins tonight than the habs have OFFICIALLY top 5 pick....unless another team wins the lottery and bumps them to #6 (like ottawa last year)

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Old
04-03-2012, 11:31 PM
  #83
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I don't see us tanking as hard as last year unless injuries hit us again, but if Roy is brought into the organization, I can see us drafting Duclair if we do indeed miss the playoffs

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Old
04-03-2012, 11:40 PM
  #84
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In any case, losing is never a good solution. Tanking playing talent wise is not a sure winning solution. Team that alway are at the top and are rarely "tanking" players by losing... (detroit, NJ, Philly, Boston, etc.)

Montreal need a winning culture. Players that will come here (drafting, trading, free agent) will know that they're alway be able to win! Winning mean good contract, means that they are heros, not just a celebrity! We need 20 players who want to win and have enough talent to do so (not all the talent in the world, just enough(was... or detroit... on 10 years ranking). Drafting is important, but it doesn't bring a winning culture...

In my opinion, G. Molson will be looking for winners at DG and Coatching level and will ask only for winning. If somebody like P. Roy is choisen, they will never accept losing. Next season must be better. So it will!

Bad year append, but never plan them. Tanking when bad year come, yes... But please, never plan to get them! Never... Worst strategy in everything: life, business, sport, name it...

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Old
04-03-2012, 11:48 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Chili View Post
Yep.

What this team needs more then anything is a philosophical change.

No more quick fixes.

No more scapegoating coaches.

No more roof patching.

If this is to turn around the right way, it starts with drafting and development.

Injuries can always be used as an excuse but what they really do is reveal the strength of the depth chart. (or lack of same).

I would hope that fans stop listening to the media element that starts speculating on firings before the season even starts. It is usually from people who have never played or coached in the league.

Molson talked about stability and he was right. But he should have acknowledged that firing coaches in mid season has nothing to do with stability.

Best case scenario is that people with a long range plan and vision are hired this summer and Molson allows them to do what is necessary to set the organization back on track. And everyone, fans, media ownership has some patience. To really build this into a top tier organization can't be done overnight.
I would say injuries have been one of the biggest issues with this organization. But the Canadiens aren't cursed, Last year the Pens made the playoffs and a good part of the year was spent without Crosby or Malkin. This year they didn't have Crosby for most of the season. If we lost DD and Plekanec next year 72 points might look pretty good. There is certainly a lack of depth in the organization, and you can't really quick fix that. The opening day roster can be patched easily but if you lose 2 key players with no strong youth or solid veterans to replace them you wind up icing a weak team. For years that was the case with Markov, but he isn't as important as he was 3 years ago.

I agree with many posters saying we should give the youth on this team more time to develop before rushing them up to the big club. Pacioretty asked last year to play a top 6 role in Hamilton rather than a bottom 6 role here. Would like to see more of that with Leblanc, Whoever our first is this year, Tinordi etc. The top performing players can come up for a cup of coffee when injuries happen, but I'd still rather see bottom 6 players in the bottom 6 rather than prospects the organization should have pegged as top 6/top 4 players. Not sure why player development has been so slow here, (Pacs, Subban, Price being the exceptions) but in the modern era NHL if that doesn't change we're going to be waiting a while for a cup.

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Old
04-04-2012, 12:03 AM
  #86
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Turianel View Post
In any case, losing is never a good solution. Tanking playing talent wise is not a sure winning solution. Team that alway are at the top and are rarely "tanking" players by losing... (detroit, NJ, Philly, Boston, etc.)

Montreal need a winning culture. Players that will come here (drafting, trading, free agent) will know that they're alway be able to win! Winning mean good contract, means that they are heros, not just a celebrity! We need 20 players who want to win and have enough talent to do so (not all the talent in the world, just enough(was... or detroit... on 10 years ranking). Drafting is important, but it doesn't bring a winning culture...

In my opinion, G. Molson will be looking for winners at DG and Coatching level and will ask only for winning. If somebody like P. Roy is choisen, they will never accept losing. Next season must be better. So it will!

Bad year append, but never plan them. Tanking when bad year come, yes... But please, never plan to get them! Never... Worst strategy in everything: life, business, sport, name it...
Detroit and NJ lost for years before becoming winners. If you're going to examine those clubs you have to look at how they became winners in the first place. You can't just look at them now and say... 'lets be like them now.' You need a roadmap to get there. They did it via the draft. That's what we should do.

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Old
04-04-2012, 12:25 AM
  #87
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We did not tank this year. We sucked!

I doubt we suck as much next year, though we will not be a powerhouse.

As long as they stop shipping 2nd pick like it's candy, I'm happy. For the rest, of course management will do their best to improve the team.

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Old
04-04-2012, 02:28 AM
  #88
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What if the new GM, as one of his first big moves, tries everything he can to take advantage of the Habs' draft position + the fact that Edmonton's rebuild has stalled and they may think about trading their pick for some immediate help, and look at obtaining that low pick from the Oilers without giving up their own? I might be dreaming a little too much, but wouldn't getting two top 3 or 4 overall picks be amazing, and also be like having two rebuilding years in one? It would be a game-changer to land two of the 4 forwards (Yakupov, Grigorenko, Forsberg, Galchenyuk), or even a forward + one of the high-rated d-men (Trouba, Murray, Ceci, Reinhart). We probably (hopefully) won't be in this position for a long time. It certainly would be a shrewd/ballsy move, the type the organization has been needing once in awhile, but hasn't made in decades.

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Old
04-04-2012, 02:43 AM
  #89
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another miserable season ? good thing I have plans for next year...

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04-04-2012, 07:59 AM
  #90
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You know what's a miserable season to me?

Every season we are not a legitimate contender.

This season to me is one of the brightest points since we won the conference under Carbo.

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04-04-2012, 08:37 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
You know what's a miserable season to me?

Every season we are not a legitimate contender.
This season to me is one of the brightest points since we won the conference under Carbo.
Go big or go home!!! I agree, it would be nice to be taken seriously by the rest of the league and I haven't heard us talked about in that regard for a very long time.

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04-04-2012, 08:58 AM
  #92
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I love these replies no way fans are going to stand for it..Like they have a choice. Yes they will stand for it.The bloody rink is sold out. Molsen he won't stand for it Ok so he will fire another coach and hire an other Gm. Panic and make lousy trade to keep us in the middle of the pack for the next 10 years. We need a serious Hockey Man running this team who knows how to play and win in this era's game. If its tanking ( don't get me wrong Im not saying that is the real answer ) Then its time to figure out a game plan and let the coaches and GM do there work. Changing coaches and GM's every other year and blowing teams up is not the answer.

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04-04-2012, 11:25 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
You know what's a miserable season to me?

Every season we are not a legitimate contender.

This season to me is one of the brightest points since we won the conference under Carbo.
Except that tanking doesn't work. Trading your crap for draft picks is a good idea, but getting a better draft position doesn't really help, considering that UFAs don't want to sign with you, and you even have to overpay your current players to convince them to stay.

We should try to win every year, but not by trading your assets for guys like Gomez and Kaberle.

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04-04-2012, 11:43 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by benji View Post
What if the new GM, as one of his first big moves, tries everything he can to take advantage of the Habs' draft position + the fact that Edmonton's rebuild has stalled and they may think about trading their pick for some immediate help, and look at obtaining that low pick from the Oilers without giving up their own? I might be dreaming a little too much, but wouldn't getting two top 3 or 4 overall picks be amazing, and also be like having two rebuilding years in one? It would be a game-changer to land two of the 4 forwards (Yakupov, Grigorenko, Forsberg, Galchenyuk), or even a forward + one of the high-rated d-men (Trouba, Murray, Ceci, Reinhart). We probably (hopefully) won't be in this position for a long time. It certainly would be a shrewd/ballsy move, the type the organization has been needing once in awhile, but hasn't made in decades.
Agreed on being aggressive getting a 2nd top 5 pick or even going for Yakupov.

However two top 5 pics, I still choose 2 forwards. Because Maxpac is the only "sure" thing we have really. The rest will hopefully progress and make themselves crucial, but you still need at least 2 others guys long term.

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04-04-2012, 05:46 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Agreed on being aggressive getting a 2nd top 5 pick or even going for Yakupov.

However two top 5 pics, I still choose 2 forwards. Because Maxpac is the only "sure" thing we have really. The rest will hopefully progress and make themselves crucial, but you still need at least 2 others guys long term.
If history repeats itself (and it will), a few a those top picks will be stars, while a few others will be total failures. You have no choice to go with who you think is the best player available.

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04-04-2012, 06:39 PM
  #96
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Ha. Ha, Ha... That's funny. Tell that to teams like Edmonton, Florida and NYI.

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Old
04-04-2012, 07:32 PM
  #97
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Fans would accept the tank if this summer the direction warns the fans "hey we're rebuilding" so the fans wouldn't have to pay for their seasons tickets. The worse is when you watch a crappy team and you paid to see them. Or better the Habs offers discounts.

alright scratch that-it ain't happening

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04-04-2012, 07:37 PM
  #98
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Ha. Ha, Ha... That's funny. Tell that to teams like Edmonton, Florida and NYI.
Pretty sure Islander fans had no problem with the picks and prospects they had, all they needed to do was hang onto them. Edmonton's players are teenagers and already better than our best offensive players and Florida is in the playoffs.

Maybe we should ask Pittsburgh and Chicago fans what they think too...
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Fans would accept the tank if this summer the direction warns the fans "hey we're rebuilding" so the fans wouldn't have to pay for their seasons tickets. The worse is when you watch a crappy team and you paid to see them. Or better the Habs offers discounts.

alright scratch that-it ain't happening
That's actually what we should do if we plan to rebuild. That's what Leonsis did and it makes a lot of sense. We know that clubs like Vancouver and Washington haven't won cups (yet anyway) but certainly those rebuilds weren't bad ideas either. And I agree with Leonsis, if you're going to rebuild be transparent about it. Tell people what your plan is. They'll be more accepting of it.

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04-04-2012, 07:51 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Agreed on being aggressive getting a 2nd top 5 pick or even going for Yakupov.

However two top 5 pics, I still choose 2 forwards. Because Maxpac is the only "sure" thing we have really. The rest will hopefully progress and make themselves crucial, but you still need at least 2 others guys long term.
Remember two years ago ? We took Tinordi over at least two very good offensive forwards: Coyle & Etem .

Two potential 40 goals scorers over a #5 or 6 d-man... ????


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Old
04-04-2012, 08:10 PM
  #100
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no... I want the playoffs next year. I hate this year.

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