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Old
04-03-2012, 06:21 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
If this is the case (and I doubt it is), and Jarome is not buying into the system yet continues to get rewarded with ice time for ignoring the couch instead of being benched / scratched for doing so, the blame for encouraging this behaviour falls squarely on the Coach.
Well do we think Iginla is instructed to stand at the blueline, not backcheck and not go into the dirty areas?

I dunno.. it's hard to say as fans because we simply don't know. But Iginla is looking more and more like a coach killer.

I think they both need to go.

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04-03-2012, 06:25 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoRD View Post
Well do we think Iginla is instructed to stand at the blueline, not backcheck and not go into the dirty areas?

I dunno.. it's hard to say as fans because we simply don't know. But Iginla is looking more and more like a coach killer.

I think they both need to go.
If he is being instructed to do that, then the coach is sending a message to the team that not everyone needs to buy into the system. I could see this leading to inconsistency issues (hmm...)

Well if he isn't then his ass should be in the pressbox eating popcorn and watching Modern Family with Feaster and Conroy. If Sutter isn't the guy to do this, then they need a coach who has the nuts to do it.

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04-03-2012, 06:54 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
If he is being instructed to do that, then the coach is sending a message to the team that not everyone needs to buy into the system. I could see this leading to inconsistency issues (hmm...)

Well if he isn't then his ass should be in the pressbox eating popcorn and watching Modern Family with Feaster and Conroy. If Sutter isn't the guy to do this, then they need a coach who has the nuts to do it.
But wasn't Iron Mike brought in to horsewhip this team into shape? Wasn't hardass Sutter supposed to do much of the same? I think as long as this is Iggy's team, not even Torts could get this team on the same page.

If the captain isn't doing it, why should I?

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04-04-2012, 12:44 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by CoRD View Post
But wasn't Iron Mike brought in to horsewhip this team into shape? Wasn't hardass Sutter supposed to do much of the same? I think as long as this is Iggy's team, not even Torts could get this team on the same page.

If the captain isn't doing it, why should I?
From what I heard (I think it was from Regehr's comments), "Iron" Mike's horsewhip was made of kittens and rainbows.

I think we're on the same page though. Whoever is coaching this team next year had better eliminate any special treatment if it exists, one way or the other.

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04-04-2012, 03:16 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoRD View Post
Well do we think Iginla is instructed to stand at the blueline, not backcheck and not go into the dirty areas?

I dunno.. it's hard to say as fans because we simply don't know. But Iginla is looking more and more like a coach killer.

I think they both need to go.
I agree with everything you're saying, except for (assuming a youth movement) the bolded. There would be no stronger message of "listen to the coach or you won't ****ing play here" than shipping out Iggy and keeping Sutter after these years of team failure.

A move like that really lends itself to the "nobody is bigger than the team" concept. This is your coach, this is his system, buy in or get out. As Stewie said, whoever is coaching next year better crack the whip and take the room over, no more special treatment. I think all 3 of us are on the same page, really.

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04-04-2012, 03:24 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by DouglasQuaid View Post
I agree with everything you're saying, except for (assuming a youth movement) the bolded. There would be no stronger message of "listen to the coach or you won't ****ing play here" than shipping out Iggy and keeping Sutter after these years of team failure.

A move like that really lends itself to the "nobody is bigger than the team" concept. This is your coach, this is his system, buy in or get out. As Stewie said, whoever is coaching next year better crack the whip and take the room over, no more special treatment. I think all 3 of us are on the same page, really.
Actually it screams Sutter is bigger than the team.

The coach is part of the team, in fact they have one of the most important positions on the team. That is why they get fired so often.

Coaches need to be able to adapt their system as much as players need to be able to adapt their game, Sutter has proved to be utterly incapable of this.

He needs to be fired, no re-signed or jettisoned off into the sun, as long as he isn't back with this team.

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04-04-2012, 04:13 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
Actually it screams Sutter is bigger than the team.

The coach is part of the team, in fact they have one of the most important positions on the team. That is why they get fired so often.

Coaches need to be able to adapt their system as much as players need to be able to adapt their game, Sutter has proved to be utterly incapable of this.

He needs to be fired, no re-signed or jettisoned off into the sun, as long as he isn't back with this team.
I really don't agree with you at all. The coach is there to guide the team, not to be part of the team.

Sure coaches need to be able to adapt a little, but come on. Because his players don't want to backcheck, he's supposed to change his system to a softer forecheck?

We've blamed the coach how many times now since the lockout? Blaming another isn't going to change anything.

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04-04-2012, 06:35 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by DouglasQuaid View Post
I really don't agree with you at all. The coach is there to guide the team, not to be part of the team.

Sure coaches need to be able to adapt a little, but come on. Because his players don't want to backcheck, he's supposed to change his system to a softer forecheck?

We've blamed the coach how many times now since the lockout? Blaming another isn't going to change anything.
look at the roster today and look at the roster under Keenan's final day. there is only a few guys that have been around that entire time and a couple that returned. Previous coaches mean squat when they had a completely different roster.

Sutter was given new players, more talented players and he couldn't get anything out of them. He is a poor coach, he shouldn't even be in the NHL. Almost every player he touched had their offense dry up, that's not a coincidence. Sutter is to coaching what my ex wife was to our relationship, a pariah, something that sucks everything good out of a situation and makes it ******.

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04-04-2012, 09:05 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
look at the roster today and look at the roster under Keenan's final day. there is only a few guys that have been around that entire time and a couple that returned. Previous coaches mean squat when they had a completely different roster.

Sutter was given new players, more talented players and he couldn't get anything out of them. He is a poor coach, he shouldn't even be in the NHL. Almost every player he touched had their offense dry up, that's not a coincidence. Sutter is to coaching what my ex wife was to our relationship, a pariah, something that sucks everything good out of a situation and makes it ******.
That is a crap statement. Sutter is a decent coach. You can't get blood from a stone and you can't get good hockey out of a roster with little work ethic and even less skill. Sutter's roster has not been vastly improved with talent, where is that coming from. This team has only regressed in talent since he took the reigns. Point and case; would you rather have Iginla 3-4 years ago or the Iginla of today?

If they gut the remaining core and keep going with younger players Sutter should stay. If not then get a different coach. Sutter's not going to change his ways and neither are the vets on this team.


Last edited by The Gnome: 04-04-2012 at 09:11 AM.
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04-04-2012, 02:32 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasQuaid View Post
He was hired to implement his coaching system.
No, he was hired to get results, i.e. win.

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Its not his fault the personnel he was given didn't fit that system, that's on management.
I never said it was. I've long been critical of upper management's ineptitude - hiring a coach that didn't fit the mold of players was one of the big reasons why.

However, what is his fault is his failure to utilize the players he did have correctly. Keeping Regehr and Phaneuf together even though it was clear they hated each other and looked terrible on the ice? Keeping Jokinen and Iginla together (the first time around) even though all it accomplished was making both players worse? Keeping Butler with Bouwmeester even though Butler looks woefully outmatched when playing more than 20mins a game?

The list goes on and on. Sutter's made more than a few terrible decisions in his time here; more than enough to get him fired.

Quote:
You blame Sutter for being too stubborn to change, yet excuse management for being too stubborn to change personnel.
I'm not excusing management of anything; they are very much responsible for the position this team is in (they are after all, ultimately responsible for hiring Sutter in the first place). But the reality is though, unless you happen to have some very deep pockets, this current ownership group is going nowhere. They've made their intentions clear - they're not trading Iginla and they're not going in for a full rebuild - whether the fans like it or not. Thus, the coach can either work with what he has, or, push a system that poorly utilizes 90% of the team and then act surprised when the team misses the playoffs.

Quote:
If his system works, why not find players to fit it? As the team gets younger, it seems as though this is happening, albeit slowly.Do I agree that it wasn't working with him and the current roster? Absolutely, the proof is pretty clear. But I do believe that if this team continues to add youth, that letting him go would be a mistake? Definitely. Brent is fantastic with young players. His system with young, talented players could be exactly what this team needs.
Personally, I don't believe his current system is entirely sustainable for long stretches of time, as evident by his time with the Devils. But yes, that's the core issue with the team - why hire a coach that didn't work with the players? In hindsight, it would have been best to fire both Sutters at the same time.

I don't think there's a situation there in which I would like to see Sutter come back - he's just too stubborn. It's rare that you'll see a team where every single player fits the coach's system perfectly; a good coach can still find ways to utilize those guys and get results. A bad coach keeps pushing things that don't work.

I also disagree with the assertion that Iginla simply refused to follow Sutter's system. The fact that he put up less than 70 points in two of his last three seasons makes it seem pretty clear he was doing what Sutter wanted - it just doesn't work since the team as a whole doesn't have enough talent. And it's not just Iginla that looks bad in this system - Bouwmeester's another player that been completely misused.

At the end of the day it's about results and Sutter's got nothing. So long as this ownership group propagates the idea of keeping competitive now, there's no way they can justify rewarding three seasons of self admitted failure with a contract extension.

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Old
04-04-2012, 02:41 PM
  #36
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I don't think anyone has said he isn't a nice guy, but he was brought in to do something no other coach has done since his brother and that is make it past the first round instead he has done what no other coach has done since before his brother and that is miss the playoffs. It is a result based business and based on that he should be let go.

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