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Two years of tanking and we are Stanley Cup contenders sooner than later

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Old
04-04-2012, 09:09 PM
  #101
Chili
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Originally Posted by Jsweenie View Post
I would say injuries have been one of the biggest issues with this organization. But the Canadiens aren't cursed, Last year the Pens made the playoffs and a good part of the year was spent without Crosby or Malkin. This year they didn't have Crosby for most of the season. If we lost DD and Plekanec next year 72 points might look pretty good. There is certainly a lack of depth in the organization, and you can't really quick fix that. The opening day roster can be patched easily but if you lose 2 key players with no strong youth or solid veterans to replace them you wind up icing a weak team. For years that was the case with Markov, but he isn't as important as he was 3 years ago.

I agree with many posters saying we should give the youth on this team more time to develop before rushing them up to the big club. Pacioretty asked last year to play a top 6 role in Hamilton rather than a bottom 6 role here. Would like to see more of that with Leblanc, Whoever our first is this year, Tinordi etc. The top performing players can come up for a cup of coffee when injuries happen, but I'd still rather see bottom 6 players in the bottom 6 rather than prospects the organization should have pegged as top 6/top 4 players. Not sure why player development has been so slow here, (Pacs, Subban, Price being the exceptions) but in the modern era NHL if that doesn't change we're going to be waiting a while for a cup.
Maybe I'm old school as far as development but I believe players should earn their way up the depth chart, draft position be damned.

I don't see a problem with Leblanc in the NHL right now. As long as he is getting decent icetime and opportunities (i.e. some powerplay time). The expectations for him right now though should be minimal. His challenge right now is to learn about playing at the highest level. The reason I don't see a problem is the maturity he shows for his age. It depends on the player, sometimes they may be talented and strong enough but lack that maturity (i.e. a Jason Spezza at a younger age).

One thing the management did get right in recent years in my opinion was the leadership angle. Gionta, Moen, Gill, Cole, etc. are solid role models for younger players to learn from.

The Habs have developed a number of NHL forwards in recent years (Pacioretty, Desharnais, Eller, Lapierre, Kost brothers, D'Agostini, etc.).

They are probably going to be bringing in a number of young dmen in the next few seasons which in my opinion is the toughest position to learn at the NHL level. Look at even some of the young dmen who came in strongest in recent years like Phaneuf and Myers, only to struggle later on.

I don't know if Randy Ladouceur will be back next year. Hopefully they will find a good dman coach if he's not. It would be great to see Larry Robinson behind the Habs bench next season looking after the D.

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04-06-2012, 03:42 AM
  #102
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Maybe I'm old school as far as development but I believe players should earn their way up the depth chart, draft position be damned.

I don't see a problem with Leblanc in the NHL right now. As long as he is getting decent icetime and opportunities (i.e. some powerplay time). The expectations for him right now though should be minimal. His challenge right now is to learn about playing at the highest level. The reason I don't see a problem is the maturity he shows for his age. It depends on the player, sometimes they may be talented and strong enough but lack that maturity (i.e. a Jason Spezza at a younger age).

One thing the management did get right in recent years in my opinion was the leadership angle. Gionta, Moen, Gill, Cole, etc. are solid role models for younger players to learn from.

The Habs have developed a number of NHL forwards in recent years (Pacioretty, Desharnais, Eller, Lapierre, Kost brothers, D'Agostini, etc.).

They are probably going to be bringing in a number of young dmen in the next few seasons which in my opinion is the toughest position to learn at the NHL level. Look at even some of the young dmen who came in strongest in recent years like Phaneuf and Myers, only to struggle later on.

I don't know if Randy Ladouceur will be back next year. Hopefully they will find a good dman coach if he's not. It would be great to see Larry Robinson behind the Habs bench next season looking after the D.
Unfortunately this is Montreal. Sooner or later Leblanc hits a hot streak, popularity rises then if there's ever an extended slump (most offensive players hit one or two early on) he's the goat. Not saying he doesn't need NHL experience or that he isn't ready for it but playing third line wing and second line center or being a top six winger are different. if management wants him to be a productive top six player, which I think could be a reasonable expectation still, it might be better that he spend a year in Hamilton as one of the more important players counted on to play top minutes and put up points instead of playing protected minutes in the NHL. Pacioretty flat out asked the press for this and got it. When her was called up a few months later he was playing the role of to six scoring power forward, and doing it quite well. Starting him in Hamilton next year with increased accountability to produce might make him a more effective call up when they need him a few months into the season


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Old
04-06-2012, 06:43 AM
  #103
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This year we will be drafting in the top three (unless something crazy happens!) and hopefully we will dragft either Grigorenko or Galchenyuk, a potential future #1 star centre that can score and make plays.

If we also stink/tank next season and get a chance to land Nathan MacKinnon, I think we can contend for a Stanley Cup within 3 to 4 years based on our talent and leadership.

Pacioretty - Grigorenko/Galchenyuk - MacKinnon
Cole - Desharnais - Gionta
Gallagher - Plekanec - Leblanc
Geoffrion - Eller - White
Moen
Bournival

Markov - Emelin
Gorges - Subban
Tinordi - Beaulieu
Kaberle
St-Denis

Price

What do you guy's think of tanking and hopefully landing Grigorenko or Galchenyuk this year and MacKinnon next year?
our organization is to fken stupid to do what is right mvoing forward

they will keep patching and remember lost revenue from missing the playoffs and the arena wont be full if we stink in the short term

molson wont accept losing money


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04-06-2012, 06:47 AM
  #104
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Have you seen Hamrlik play in Washington this season? He has gone waaay down hill and letting him go was the right decision. If a player is on the wrong side of 35 then you can't guarantee a repeat performance, especially considering the number of minutes we had him logging the last few seasons.
OR SIGN A 33 YEAR D MAN WITH NO KNEES LEFT TO A FKED UP 3 YEAR DEAL

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04-06-2012, 06:59 AM
  #105
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our organization is to fken stupid to do what is right mvoing forward

they will keep patching and remember lost revenue from missing the playoffs and the arena wont be full if we stink in the short term

molson wont accept losing money
The thing that stands out to me is that Molson kept stressing "stability" in his press conference. That could mean a few things. Could mean leadership stability, could mean player stability, could mean both. Likely it is both.

We should be locking up the core of the team for 5+ years and drafting and developing our own players to keep continuity and familiarity with each other.

We have 7 picks in the first two rounds the next two years. I would be trying to get 3 or 4 more from now until the 2013 draft. We have a wave of young talent (debatable how good they are) coming into Hamilton this year and we need should be striving to bring 3 or 4 young draftees into Hamilton every season.

I am just sick of having a team that is afraid to make big moves. Afraid of trading a good player because they are so afraid of what they might do elsewhere.

I keep looking at Philadelphia and how they have transformed their team into a contender while being one of the youngest teams in the league. They weren't worried about Richards or Carter flourishing somewhere else. They make bold moves and have been rewarded. Their last place finish is a distant memory. The Bryz move sucks for them, but they have done well with their skaters.

We need someone who is not afraid to trade Plekanec for young promising players and picks. We need someone who is not afraid to (here is where I will lose most of you, I don't necessarily want this but the GM should explore all avenues) trade Price for a plethora of picks and top prospects. Teams will overpay for him and someone like Josh Harding could be signed and do an admirable job until we develop another goalie. If the new GM thinks Price is the cornerstone then sign him to a deal that keeps him here for 6 to 8 years. Keep that stability in net and use some salary averaging to get our cap hit down. Stop acting like we are too good to add on throw away years to get cap hits down. A few players on these types of contracts and you can add another star player with the cap savings.

If they don't see a player as a guy that is going to be on the team contributing for a cup in 4 years then they should sell high and get everything they can. There are always more players that can be drafted and more UFAs that can be signed.

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Old
04-06-2012, 07:15 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
OR SIGN A 33 YEAR D MAN WITH NO KNEES LEFT TO A FKED UP 3 YEAR DEAL
surely you aren't referring to Markov right? Hopefully you realize what you're seeing from him now is just a warmup and it still looks very good.

I still think the signing was a good move. The whole medical debacle overshadowed the fact we have a very key offensive D man who will at the very least have an A.

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04-06-2012, 07:17 AM
  #107
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The thing that stands out to me is that Molson kept stressing "stability" in his press conference. That could mean a few things. Could mean leadership stability, could mean player stability, could mean both. Likely it is both.

We should be locking up the core of the team for 5+ years and drafting and developing our own players to keep continuity and familiarity with each other.

We have 7 picks in the first two rounds the next two years. I would be trying to get 3 or 4 more from now until the 2013 draft. We have a wave of young talent (debatable how good they are) coming into Hamilton this year and we need should be striving to bring 3 or 4 young draftees into Hamilton every season.

I am just sick of having a team that is afraid to make big moves. Afraid of trading a good player because they are so afraid of what they might do elsewhere.

I keep looking at Philadelphia and how they have transformed their team into a contender while being one of the youngest teams in the league. They weren't worried about Richards or Carter flourishing somewhere else. They make bold moves and have been rewarded. Their last place finish is a distant memory. The Bryz move sucks for them, but they have done well with their skaters.

We need someone who is not afraid to trade Plekanec for young promising players and picks. We need someone who is not afraid to (here is where I will lose most of you, I don't necessarily want this but the GM should explore all avenues) trade Price for a plethora of picks and top prospects. Teams will overpay for him and someone like Josh Harding could be signed and do an admirable job until we develop another goalie. If the new GM thinks Price is the cornerstone then sign him to a deal that keeps him here for 6 to 8 years. Keep that stability in net and use some salary averaging to get our cap hit down. Stop acting like we are too good to add on throw away years to get cap hits down. A few players on these types of contracts and you can add another star player with the cap savings.

If they don't see a player as a guy that is going to be on the team contributing for a cup in 4 years then they should sell high and get everything they can. There are always more players that can be drafted and more UFAs that can be signed.
The Montreal Canadiens are NOT afraid of that by any means, unfortunately. It's kind of our MO.

We happen to suck at getting a return (except in Eller's case).

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04-06-2012, 07:45 AM
  #108
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Remember two years ago ? We took Tinordi over at least two very good offensive forwards: Coyle & Etem .

Two potential 40 goals scorers over a #5 or 6 d-man... ????
First, I think you are pegging Tinordi as a 5# or 6 way too soon. I think he's more likely to become a very painful 2nd pairing D.

Second, that was then, this is now. Meaning our organizational needs were different. That being said, I wouldn't mind Murray or Trouba at all.

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04-06-2012, 07:52 AM
  #109
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well if habs lose on saturday and EDM wins their last game they pass us so we're officially the 2nd worst team in the NHL

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04-06-2012, 08:08 AM
  #110
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well if habs lose on saturday and EDM wins their last game they pass us so we're officially the 2nd worst team in the NHL
i hope to see Robert Mayer in goals for the Habs last game and i'll be rooting for an Edmonton loss

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04-06-2012, 11:15 AM
  #111
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doesn't even require another year of "tanking"...

looking at the next 2-3 seasons...

MaxPac - DD - Cole
XXX - Pleks - Bourque
Leblanc - Eller - Gionta

(one or more of gallagher, Kristo, geoffrion, bournival, holland, engqvist possibly making a jump to replace Bourque)

Subban - Gorges
Markov - XXX
Diaz - Emelin

(one or more of Beaulieu, Tinordi, Ellis, Bennett)

Price



that's a decent nucleus. Assuming we "nail" our 2012 first round pick, getting either a top-4 dman or top-6 forward, we are quite close to fielding a very strong team.

we need an elite top-6 fwd and an elite top-4 dman, no small additions to make, but not a huge stretch to see a competent GM fill those 2 holes effectively in the next 12-24 months.

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04-06-2012, 12:19 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
doesn't even require another year of "tanking"...

looking at the next 2-3 seasons...

MaxPac - DD - Cole
XXX - Pleks - Bourque
Leblanc - Eller - Gionta

(one or more of gallagher, Kristo, geoffrion, bournival, holland, engqvist possibly making a jump to replace Bourque)

Subban - Gorges
Markov - XXX
Diaz - Emelin

(one or more of Beaulieu, Tinordi, Ellis, Bennett)

Price



that's a decent nucleus. Assuming we "nail" our 2012 first round pick, getting either a top-4 dman or top-6 forward, we are quite close to fielding a very strong team.

we need an elite top-6 fwd and an elite top-4 dman, no small additions to make, but not a huge stretch to see a competent GM fill those 2 holes effectively in the next 12-24 months.
That is a pretty bad top 9, and a horrible centre line.

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04-06-2012, 12:29 PM
  #113
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First and foremost we need strong, competent, respected management. Re-tools can be done on the fly with smart people at the helm.

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04-06-2012, 12:38 PM
  #114
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That is a pretty bad top 9, and a horrible centre line.
1- have you taken a close look at St.Louis's top 9?

2- the point is that we are "close", and that adding an elite top-6 forward is one of the holes we need to fill.

add 25g/60+pt forward to the top-6, and all of a sudden that's a very good top-9.

3- Pleks-DD-Eller is far from horrible. Eller & DD will more than likely continue to improve (imo Eller will make a big jump over the next 1-2 years), and while it lacks the mythical "superstar big Centre", that trio is more than strong enough for the team to be in contention.

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Old
04-06-2012, 03:52 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by HabsSlappy View Post
The thing that stands out to me is that Molson kept stressing "stability" in his press conference. That could mean a few things. Could mean leadership stability, could mean player stability, could mean both. Likely it is both.

We should be locking up the core of the team for 5+ years and drafting and developing our own players to keep continuity and familiarity with each other.

We have 7 picks in the first two rounds the next two years. I would be trying to get 3 or 4 more from now until the 2013 draft. We have a wave of young talent (debatable how good they are) coming into Hamilton this year and we need should be striving to bring 3 or 4 young draftees into Hamilton every season.

I am just sick of having a team that is afraid to make big moves. Afraid of trading a good player because they are so afraid of what they might do elsewhere.

I keep looking at Philadelphia and how they have transformed their team into a contender while being one of the youngest teams in the league. They weren't worried about Richards or Carter flourishing somewhere else. They make bold moves and have been rewarded. Their last place finish is a distant memory. The Bryz move sucks for them, but they have done well with their skaters.

We need someone who is not afraid to trade Plekanec for young promising players and picks. We need someone who is not afraid to (here is where I will lose most of you, I don't necessarily want this but the GM should explore all avenues) trade Price for a plethora of picks and top prospects. Teams will overpay for him and someone like Josh Harding could be signed and do an admirable job until we develop another goalie. If the new GM thinks Price is the cornerstone then sign him to a deal that keeps him here for 6 to 8 years. Keep that stability in net and use some salary averaging to get our cap hit down. Stop acting like we are too good to add on throw away years to get cap hits down. A few players on these types of contracts and you can add another star player with the cap savings.

If they don't see a player as a guy that is going to be on the team contributing for a cup in 4 years then they should sell high and get everything they can. There are always more players that can be drafted and more UFAs that can be signed.
If I'm the GM I would see price as stability. Just based on the consistency seen the last few years I would be less willing to tease him or patches than anyone else. However if someone makes wan offer I couldn't refuse it would be stupid not to consider it seeing as w are last in the conference and clearly needing some changes

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04-06-2012, 06:25 PM
  #116
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Les Tanquers will probably be disappointed. Barring injuries, the Habs should have a much better record next season and won't get a top 5 pick. They might even qualify for the playoffs and upset some team in the first round, ending up with the 23rd pick.

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04-06-2012, 06:48 PM
  #117
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Maybe we should ask Pittsburgh and Chicago fans what they think too....
Hawks never tanked ,, Wirtz didn't give a #### about product on ice and spent very little on development/etc

And for those that love to bring up Toews/Kane I would remind them the other 2 high picks Hawks got before those 2

2004 - Cam Barker #3
2005 - Jack Skille #7

Also Toews falling to Hawks was more a result of Pens/Blues not valuing him as highly as EJ/Staal and we won draft lotto in Kane years ,,, Team wasn't supposed to pick #1

Drafting high doesn't = Path to Cup

It takes more then 2 good young players to compete in NHL... Hawks didn't take next step until guys like Keith/Seabrook/Hjalmarsson/Sharp/Buff/Bolland/Versteeg/Ladd/etc developed (Steeger/Ladd/Sharp acquired via trades)

Also big FA's like Hossa/Campbell/Khabibulin helped pull team out of the dark age

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04-06-2012, 07:27 PM
  #118
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1- have you taken a close look at St.Louis's top 9?

2- the point is that we are "close", and that adding an elite top-6 forward is one of the holes we need to fill.

add 25g/60+pt forward to the top-6, and all of a sudden that's a very good top-9.

3- Pleks-DD-Eller is far from horrible. Eller & DD will more than likely continue to improve (imo Eller will make a big jump over the next 1-2 years), and while it lacks the mythical "superstar big Centre", that trio is more than strong enough for the team to be in contention.
1. Are you kidding me? St.Louis' top 9 is great, David Perron, David Backes, T.J. Oshie, Patrick berglund, steen, stewart arnott. Those are some of the best defensive forwards in the game playing in a very defensive system, of course none of them are gonna have exceptional offensive seasons. People said the exact same thing about Boston's top 9 last year.

2. thing is were racing against the clock Markov and Cole and to a lesser extent Plekanec, are all very important pieces to our team moving forward but they're all on the tail end of their career. It could take 3-5 years for our top 3 draft pick to develop and become an effective top 6 player, same goes for players like gallagher, Beaulieu, Tinordi,Ellis, Bournival and Leblanc.

3. No number one center, I know a lot of people think Desharnais can be a number one center, I just don't think he is capable of being a legit number one. Furthermore I don't even consider patches/desharnais/cole a first line I think of them more as a good 2nd line. I know you think we don't need a true number one center to be a good team and i respect that and to an extent I agree with that, however Plekanec needs to show he can produce offensively on a more consistent bases, then again he does need better line mates. And if eller is to develop into a 50+ point two way center he needs to play with better line mates (just like plekanec) and he also needs more ice time. Which leads me to believe Plekanec should be traded, why? because he's valuable now, and eller needs start developing now.

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04-06-2012, 07:31 PM
  #119
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Im a habs fan tommorow, come on boys you can't let the leafs get to overtime! finish em in regulation, you got that 3rd locked up anyhow

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04-06-2012, 07:39 PM
  #120
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Les Tanquers will probably be disappointed. Barring injuries, the Habs should have a much better record next season and won't get a top 5 pick. They might even qualify for the playoffs and upset some team in the first round, ending up with the 23rd pick.
Barring injuries? Our only significant injury this year was Gionta and since markov came back we haven't been doing any better, i'm willing to wait till next year before saying we were wrong since i think he'll be better next year. I think if were to do better next year we need to get a very good gm/coach and sign a big name free agent suter/parise since our top 9 is **** and our depth on defense isn't any better, until then I'm expecting the same results.

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04-06-2012, 07:45 PM
  #121
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Im a habs fan tommorow, come on boys you can't let the leafs get to overtime! finish em in regulation, you got that 3rd locked up anyhow
Ya, but if we lose in regulation and EDM wins, we move to 2nd. Sorry

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04-06-2012, 07:59 PM
  #122
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We won't be a contender as long as Bourque is on our team.

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04-06-2012, 08:44 PM
  #123
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Barring injuries? Our only significant injury this year was Gionta and since markov came back we haven't been doing any better, i'm willing to wait till next year before saying we were wrong since i think he'll be better next year. I think if were to do better next year we need to get a very good gm/coach and sign a big name free agent suter/parise since our top 9 is **** and our depth on defense isn't any better, until then I'm expecting the same results.
I'm less pessimistic than you. I foresee an improved defense with the players on hand. Gionta and Moen will help and I expect additional secondary scoring from Eller and Leblanc. The Habs might get lucky with their first draft pick (or even one of their seconds). Some poster (I forget who) suggested the possibility of packaging that pick with other assets or picks in a trade to get Huberdeau. That may seem like a stretch but it's far more plausible than signing Suter or Parise.

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04-06-2012, 09:35 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I'm less pessimistic than you. I foresee an improved defense with the players on hand. Gionta and Moen will help and I expect additional secondary scoring from Eller and Leblanc. The Habs might get lucky with their first draft pick (or even one of their seconds). Some poster (I forget who) suggested the possibility of packaging that pick with other assets or picks in a trade to get Huberdeau. That may seem like a stretch but it's far more plausible than signing Suter or Parise.
Moen is UFA JUly 1st, I wouldnt be surprised to see him go to a better team.

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04-06-2012, 10:44 PM
  #125
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Moen is UFA JUly 1st, I wouldnt be surprised to see him go to a better team.
Could be, but I won't worry about it until it happens. If so, it'll create a little more cap room as well as an opening for a younger player.

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