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The valuation of Schenn is all over the place throughout this thread. I think what I suggested represents something in the middle of what is being said. Maybe it's closer to Stewart for Schenn straight up, but Stewart's also proven more in the league. The Blues would have to get more than just Gormley for Stewart and Rattie and thus the three-way idea begins to fray if they can't get more value (which is why you so rarely see three-way trades to begin with).
As for Stewart, your read on him is wrong. It's not a function of "off ice stuff" or "being unaccountable." It's that his specific top-level hockey skills are put to more use when he's in a system where the offensive flow is not generated primarily via forecheck or via reads in the neutral zone leading to turnovers and chances the other way. Unless and until Toronto radically changes its system, it plays precisely the type of game in which Stewart's skills would thrive. He needs a more wide open style. He's got a wicked backhand when he can be sprung around a team's RD. He can take a quality shot at speed. From what I've seen out of the Leafs' offense I think it's the #1 team with whom he'd have a chance to put up 30 goals. Now, unfortunately I don't think Toronto will win without radically changing that system and approach but that's just my own opinion, and in any event it's not likely to happen overnight even if they decided to revamp.
St. Louis can part with Stewart because their replacement player does play the game the way the Blues' system is designed (Tarasenko). The Blues are loaded on the wings with Schwartz' arrival to the squad and Tarasenko's imminent arrival. Stewart's best talents aren't being used and won't be used unless he simply learns new skills (young players are capable of this sometimes).
I think most fans would be ok with Stewart for Schenn straight up. Schenn still has a lot of potential and is still quite young. It's very much the same feeling many Blues fans have with Stewart. We feel we can wait on Schenn unless we get what we need, especially with a new coach (who we feel can make Schenn better than he was under Wilson).
Stewart would be exactly what we need, a power forward with size and scoring ability. It would be a risk for both teams but one I think the Leafs would make (I can't speak for the blues).
I thought the Blues wanted a scoring upgrade with Stewart or a top pairing LH defenseman though?
A) Power forwards with top line potential are much rarer than top 6 centers, and take far longer to develop. Hence a higher inherent value, and the willingness to excuse the slower growth.
B) Gagner's 5 consecutive 41-49 point seasons would seem to indicate a stagnation in Gagner's growth. JVR's three seasons were 35, 40, and this season he was on 46 points without the injuries. That's fairly clear, consistent growth, and should only improve as his body grows to better suit his role as a power forward.
C) Playoffs. JVR stepped up his game in the playoffs last year at a very young age, scoring 7 goals in 11 games, which is no small feat. Power forwards shine in the physicality of the playoffs - just look at Franzen. For a perennial playoff contender, that's huge.
Don't get why so many Leafs fan actually believe what Burke says about his players. He always make stuff up to take attention away from the time or change topics or just to try to get more value in a trade. I.e. by saying he got offered a 1st rounder, there might be a GM out there interested in Schenn and believes it then up their offer but more often than not that does NOT happen. When it does happen, the other GM (i.e. Suter) gets canned shortly after.
According to Burke, Schenn is worth 10 1st rounders. Reimer is a franchise goalie (then at the deadline he suddenly was looking for a goalie). He even label'd Dan Cloutier as a franchise goalie and one of the best goalies in the league (and we all know what happened there). Basically a history of making headlines/getting attention.
Your right, I guess I'm just going to believe some random fan's view that Schenn is worth garbage in other GM's eyes instead, forget about the fact that Schenn was the leaf's best Dman last year at the age of 21 or the fact that young shutdown D man takes long to develop, 1 bad season and now his worthless. Also, when did Burke said Schenn is worth 10 1st? He said he got legit offers for his players but he didn't took it. Is it really that hard to believe that Schenn is worth a late 1st? Using your logic then I guess Bernier, Stewart and Dubinsky are all worthless too right?
Your right, I guess I'm just going to believe some random fan's view that Schenn is worth garbage in other GM's eyes instead, forget about the fact that Schenn was the leaf's best Dman last year at the age of 21 or the fact that young shutdown D man takes long to develop, 1 bad season and now his worthless. Also, when did Burke said Schenn is worth 10 1st? He said he got legit offers for his players but he didn't took it. Is it really that hard to believe that Schenn is worth a late 1st? Using your logic then I guess Bernier, Stewart and Dubinsky are all worthless too right?
He seems to do a pretty damn good job of getting value for his players. I mean this was a common view when Leaf fans said the same thing about Versteeg, Beauchemin, Kaberle etc and it turns out the value he got for them turned out to be much of what he was saying it was.
Carlyle's system is no where near where it would be when they have time to install it.
I hate to cloud the waters with things like "facts" but if you watched Anaheim play this year under Carlyle you'd realize that the Leafs are currently playing the *exact* same system.
Out of curiosity, what exactly did you think Carlyle was going to do that was going to take more time and more practices then he's already had?
I hate to cloud the waters with things like "facts" but if you watched Anaheim play this year under Carlyle you'd realize that the Leafs are currently playing the *exact* same system.
Out of curiosity, what exactly did you think Carlyle was going to do that was going to take more time and more practices then he's already had?
In all the years I've known you Ferris, I've never known you hold back on being critical of the Leafs. Warranted or not.
Isn't it funny how Toronto Maple Leafs players max out their potential at 22 y/o? In fact, they begin regressing at 23!
The poster i quoted claimed he'd rather have someone more "proven" (Schenn) than a draft pick this year. Has Schenn really "proven" to be more than a #6 defenseman at this point?
Look, i've defended Schenn through his rough times. But, his 4th year into this league he's still making the same mistakes he did as a rookie. A defensive D-man not being able to play defense is a major concern.
Also, when did Burke said Schenn is worth 10 1st? He said he got legit offers for his players but he didn't took it. Is it really that hard to believe that Schenn is worth a late 1st? Using your logic then I guess Bernier, Stewart and Dubinsky are all worthless too right?
