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Old
04-06-2012, 05:06 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Please post the numbers. The Habs were crap under Martin and crap under Cunney. Breaking down which poop was better is a waste of time. Martin stinks and so does Cunney. The only difference is this is the team that Martin wanted. I wouldn't say the same for Cunney.
These are a little dated as they are more than a month old now, but you will get the idea.

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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Here is an update now that its been 2 weeks just about and both coaches have coached basically the same number of games.

Under Cunneyworth we have allowed 88 goals and scored 79 in 31 games.

2.84 ga/g, 2.55 gf/g

Under Martin we allowed 83 goals and scored 82 in 32 games.

2.59 ga/g, 2.56 gf/g

The statistics show that we have considerably regressed defensively under Cunneyworth. Cunneyworth is on pace to surrender 20 goals more than Martin's squad would have over an 82 game schedule. We have basically stayed the same offensively, however it is worth noting that we have had more offensive approach under Cunneyworth as evidenced by the Kaberle pick up, something that Martin had for all of 3 games. This of course is at the expense of a lot of defence. One could argue that part of the reason for the defensive decline was trading away Spacek, however that would be a dumb argument. If Spacek was good enough to make a 20 goal a season difference defensively then he'd be among the top defenders in the league.

In case anybody was wondering, our records under the two coaches also bears out the statistical decline.

Martin: 13-12-7
Cunneyworth: 11-17-3

Under Cunneyworth only Columbus is worse than us. Under Martin we we would be tied with Toronto, only 3 points out of a playoff spot with a game in hand.

I've said it in previous seasons and I will say it again now. Jacques Martin was keeping us from being among the league's worst teams the last two years. Right now we are seeing proof that we literally are one of the league's worst teams without him.
Here is my post re: the holding onto a lead in the 3rd

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One of the largest criticisms of Martin and the single biggest reason Gauthier gave for his firing was blown 3rd period leads.

On the season we are 19-3-4 when leading after 2.

Under Cunneyworth we are 8-3-1
Under Martin we are 11-0-3

Another way of looking at it. Martin got us 25/28 points when up by two. Cunneyworth has got us 17/24 in the same situation. Under Martin we were basically on par with Pittsburgh in terms of success taking the lead into the 3rd. Under Martin we were middle of the pack and at least got a point every time we took a lead into the 3rd. Under Cunneyworth we are only better than Columbus.

What's funny is that Cunneyworth has actually taken the lead into the 3rd more often than Martin, but under Cunneyworth we are absolutely dreadful in the 3rd. Like I said earlier, only Columbus has managed to suck more in the 3rd than Cunneyworth's habs.

If this is " 'getting it' in a way that JM never did..." then I'm not sure what getting it is.
The notion that Martin's team could not protect a lead was pure ******** and one that Gauthier used his primary reason for firing him. We were doing perfectly fine under Martin and our record was not indicative of our play. It was not only due for improvement but there were signs that improvement was being made. I maintain we would be in the playoffs with Martin.

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04-06-2012, 05:17 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
These are a little dated as they are more than a month old now, but you will get the idea.



Here is my post re: the holding onto a lead in the 3rd



The notion that Martin's team could not protect a lead was pure ******** and one that Gauthier used his primary reason for firing him. We were doing perfectly fine under Martin and our record was not indicative of our play. It was not only due for improvement but there were signs that improvement was being made. I maintain we would be in the playoffs with Martin.


The Martin legend grows!

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04-06-2012, 05:29 PM
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The Martin legend grows!
Well, he's probably right. We were what, 2 points out of 8th when he got fired? Good chance we make the playoffs. But Martin was not leading us to championships and he was well on his way to driving Subban out of town. Some people here defended him playing Mathieu Darche over Erik Cole on the powerplay...

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04-06-2012, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post


The Martin legend grows!
When he was fired we were right on the doorstep of the playoffs in spite of a horrible start. There is no reason why we couldn't have.

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04-06-2012, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
The notion that Martin's team could not protect a lead was pure ******** and one that Gauthier used his primary reason for firing him. We were doing perfectly fine under Martin and our record was not indicative of our play. It was not only due for improvement but there were signs that improvement was being made. I maintain we would be in the playoffs with Martin.
Keeping Martin and not gutting the winger depth by trading Cammalleri and Kostitsyn probably would have put them pretty close.

Ironic that Gauthier made his successor's job much easier in some respects by pulling an inadvertent tank job. Replacing the winger depth squandered is a bit of a task though. In full season terms he dumped two 30+ even strength point scorers for a 20 ES scorer. Unless Bourque rebounds hard or they have good offseason Montreal's LW depth is a wasteland after Pacioretty.

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04-06-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Keeping Martin and not gutting the winger depth by trading Cammalleri and Kostitsyn probably would have put them pretty close.

Ironic that Gauthier made his successor's job much easier in some respects by pulling an inadvertent tank job. Replacing the winger depth squandered is a bit of a task though. In full season terms he dumped two 30+ even strength point scorers for a 20 ES scorer. Unless Bourque rebounds hard or they have good offseason Montreal's LW depth is a wasteland after Pacioretty.
We could always hold out hope that we sign Parise in the summer. Obviously a lot easier said than done though.

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04-06-2012, 05:41 PM
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When he was fired we were right on the doorstep of the playoffs in spite of a horrible start. There is no reason why we couldn't have.
The team was playing terrible winning games by squeaking out a goal. The only difference between martin and RC at the end of the year is we would have not only ruined the young talent we did have under martin we would have a terrible draft pick.

The season was lost after that terrible start and martin showing he didn't have a sweet clue about running a powerplay and had no intention of changing that. He should have never been allowed anywhere near the team, terrible move.

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04-06-2012, 05:53 PM
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The team was playing terrible winning games by squeaking out a goal. The only difference between martin and RC at the end of the year is we would have not only ruined the young talent we did have under martin we would have a terrible draft pick.

The season was lost after that terrible start and martin showing he didn't have a sweet clue about running a powerplay and had no intention of changing that. He should have never been allowed anywhere near the team, terrible move.
Agree with the first part, very much disagree with the second part.

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04-06-2012, 05:55 PM
  #84
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The team was playing terrible winning games by squeaking out a goal. The only difference between martin and RC at the end of the year is we would have not only ruined the young talent we did have under martin we would have a terrible draft pick.

The season was lost after that terrible start and martin showing he didn't have a sweet clue about running a powerplay and had no intention of changing that. He should have never been allowed anywhere near the team, terrible move.
On the contrary, generally under Martin they were winning big and squeaking out losses. Their goal differential was better than their record.

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04-06-2012, 06:08 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
When he was fired we were right on the doorstep of the playoffs in spite of a horrible start. There is no reason why we couldn't have.
Err.. Habs had won 3 of their last 10 games when Martin got fired.

So that somehow translates into this team making the playoffs? The mastermind Martin would have put it all together and somehow made the playoffs with 400+ man games lost, the worst PK in the league and defensive dynamos like Campoli and Kaberle playing key roles?

It's funny though. People dump on Cunney...yet he had no Gill, AK, Cammy (who was more productive than Bourque), Moen, Darche, Gionta, Gomez, etc... We have a bunch of AHLers playing big roles on the team and yet people are comparing records. Context is everything, my friends.

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04-06-2012, 06:17 PM
  #86
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Word is Gauthier also turned Larry Robinson away when he offered his services as assistant coach..

@!#^&@# you Gauthier!!!

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=257629

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04-06-2012, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Err.. Habs had won 3 of their last 10 games when Martin got fired.

So that somehow translates into this team making the playoffs? The mastermind Martin would have put it all together and somehow made the playoffs with 400+ man games lost, the worst PK in the league and defensive dynamos like Campoli and Kaberle playing key roles?

It's funny though. People dump on Cunney...yet he had no Gill, AK, Cammy (who was more productive than Bourque), Moen, Darche, Gionta, Gomez, etc... We have a bunch of AHLers playing big roles on the team and yet people are comparing records. Context is everything, my friends.
RC did have all those players until we traded them away because he ****ed up our season. We didn't start losing because we traded away AK, Gill or Cammy, we traded them because we were losing. Under Martin we were already on the cusp of the playoffs and were a threat to win every time we took the ice. There were no easy wins against us. That obviously was not the case under Cunney where we have frequently been blown out of games.

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04-06-2012, 06:26 PM
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When he was fired we were right on the doorstep of the playoffs in spite of a horrible start. There is no reason why we couldn't have.
I believe JM was largely responsible for mishandling many of our young guys be it because they couldnt live up to his rigid system or had some attitude and he couldnt or wouldnt deal with it other than by not playing the player or putting them on the bottom line while playing 4th liners on PP and top 6. Also, his personality was of a petty, snide, arrogant sarcastic person which Im guessing isnt conducive in getting the most out of your players. Examples, early in the season and AK was doing well and JM was asked why he figured AK was playing good and he said contract year. Why say something like that, why belittle a player playing well ? Also of course was the reporter asking about Cole not being on the PP and him giving that condescending smile and lecturing her on doing research. Well we know how Cole is on the PP.
I think JM would have driven more players out of the Habs because A GM doesnt have much choice other than to move guys if the coach wont play them. So for me, even if it meant making the play-offs, keeping JM was too high a price to pay.

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04-06-2012, 06:30 PM
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I believe JM was largely responsible for mishandling many of our young guys be it because they couldnt live up to his rigid system or had some attitude and he couldnt or wouldnt deal with it other than by not playing the player or putting them on the bottom line while playing 4th liners on PP and top 6. Also, his personality was of a petty, snide, arrogant sarcastic person which Im guessing isnt conducive in getting the most out of your players. Examples, early in the season and AK was doing well and JM was asked why he figured AK was playing good and he said contract year. Why say something like that, why belittle a player playing well ? Also of course was the reporter asking about Cole not being on the PP and him giving that condescending smile and lecturing her on doing research. Well we know how Cole is on the PP.
I think JM would have driven more players out of the Habs because A GM doesnt have much choice other than to move guys if the coach wont play them. So for me, even if it meant making the play-offs, keeping JM was too high a price to pay.
Martin's failing at handling young players is pure BS. Subban and Pacioretty developed perfectly fine under his watch, as did Eller. How you can look at our team and say he wasn't getting the best out of his players is beyond me. For the first time in over a decade we were playing sound, consistent, structured hockey and we were getting results despite Gauthier having done a poor job assembling a team and a ridiculous number of injuries.

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04-06-2012, 06:33 PM
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RC did have all those players until we traded them away because he ****ed up our season. We didn't start losing because we traded away AK, Gill or Cammy, we traded them because we were losing. Under Martin we were already on the cusp of the playoffs and were a threat to win every time we took the ice. There were no easy wins against us. That obviously was not the case under Cunney where we have frequently been blown out of games.
Cusp of the playoffs. IT WAS FRIGGING DECEMBER! Very few teams are dead in the water by that point.

MTL was 2 out. Yes, but they were in 12th PLACE!!! Tampa was 5 out. The 2nd worst team in the league was just 10 out.

Then remove:

Cam, AK, Gill, Gio, Gomez, Moen, Darche, etc...and you have the audacity to nitpick about the team getting blown out of games?

Martin fanboys are just as delusional as the Gauthier ones.

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04-06-2012, 07:44 PM
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Cusp of the playoffs. IT WAS FRIGGING DECEMBER! Very few teams are dead in the water by that point.

MTL was 2 out. Yes, but they were in 12th PLACE!!! Tampa was 5 out. The 2nd worst team in the league was just 10 out.

Then remove:

Cam, AK, Gill, Gio, Gomez, Moen, Darche, etc...and you have the audacity to nitpick about the team getting blown out of games?

Martin fanboys are just as delusional as the Gauthier ones.
Under Cunney we were getting blown out with those guys so it doesn't matter. Your argument would hold weight if we stayed in contention and then lost those guys and fell out, but that's not what happened. We instantly plummeted as soon as the coaching change was made. We were out of contention by the new year after the change. The only delusional one here is you. I have posted a lot of stats to support why we were better under Martin, and it has nothing to do with losing the players you listed.

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04-06-2012, 07:53 PM
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Can't believe there's people actually trying to argue we were just as bad under Martin as we are under RC. That's simply ridiculous.

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04-06-2012, 08:00 PM
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Agree with the first part, very much disagree with the second part.
Extremely difficult to recover from a start like that, it has a way of killing a whole season and martins play style would have never overcome it. The season was lost within the first couple weeks.

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On the contrary, generally under Martin they were winning big and squeaking out losses. Their goal differential was better than their record.
We have maybe dominated one or two games this whole year. On the other hand thanks to great goaltending we have never been blown out either. "Winning big" you mean jumping out to a lead and then praying we hold it till the end? We never "won big" with martin, it was always a game of inches irreguardless of our lead.

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04-06-2012, 08:16 PM
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Martin's failing at handling young players is pure BS. Subban and Pacioretty developed perfectly fine under his watch, as did Eller. How you can look at our team and say he wasn't getting the best out of his players is beyond me. For the first time in over a decade we were playing sound, consistent, structured hockey and we were getting results despite Gauthier having done a poor job assembling a team and a ridiculous number of injuries.
I didnt say nobody could play under JMs system, Darche thrived as an example , and I didnt say no young players could play under JM. I did say many players, too many in my view, couldnt cut it under JM though apparently do well elsewhere. I know a team needs a system and I dont expect a coach to be a players friend or psychologist, but I think JM was too rigid in trying to pigeon hole players into the system and didnt have the ability to deal with players who had some immaturity and attitude. You mention Patches and I remember him before last season saying he didnt want to play with the Habs because while under Carbo he knew if he made a mistake things would be gone over with him but hed still play. He said under JM hed be benched and he was on eggshells afraid of making a mistake. He figured hed do better playing top 6 for the Bulldogs than bottom 6 for the Habs. If you want to give credit to JM for Patches go ahead, but it doesnt seem to me Patches got much from JM.
You like JM, I dont, fair enough.

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04-06-2012, 08:45 PM
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Extremely difficult to recover from a start like that, it has a way of killing a whole season and martins play style would have never overcome it. The season was lost within the first couple weeks.



We have maybe dominated one or two games this whole year. On the other hand thanks to great goaltending we have never been blown out either. "Winning big" you mean jumping out to a lead and then praying we hold it till the end? We never "won big" with martin, it was always a game of inches irreguardless of our lead.
The scores by which they won with Martin were bigger than the scores by which they lost is the point. Cunneyworth got some blowouts, but as far as being able to beat opponents they were a lot stronger under Martin.

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04-06-2012, 09:04 PM
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Martin's failing at handling young players is pure BS. Subban and Pacioretty developed perfectly fine under his watch, as did Eller. How you can look at our team and say he wasn't getting the best out of his players is beyond me. For the first time in over a decade we were playing sound, consistent, structured hockey and we were getting results despite Gauthier having done a poor job assembling a team and a ridiculous number of injuries.
Our PP was still horrible and our PK was what saved us on most nights. We had only one scoring line and were decimated by injuries for most of the season like you said. Muller leaving and Pearn and Martin being fired and eventually Gauthier was a blessing in disguise for this franchise. We were just like you described earlier......Just outside of eight place and fighting for a playoff spot......A team that has been this way for much too long. As bad as this whole disaster of a season was, we are two or three players away from turning things around. I cant look at our situation and feel anything like Leaf nation is feeling, yikes what a mess.

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04-06-2012, 10:22 PM
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The scores by which they won with Martin were bigger than the scores by which they lost is the point. Cunneyworth got some blowouts, but as far as being able to beat opponents they were a lot stronger under Martin.
I'm not arguing RC was better, I am saying with martin we still miss the playoffs and we still suck. He was nothing special. Just because he was better than a rookie coach who never belonged as head coach doesnt mean he was good. Martin wasn't going to ever take this team anywhere.

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04-06-2012, 10:44 PM
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I'm not arguing RC was better, I am saying with martin we still miss the playoffs and we still suck. He was nothing special. Just because he was better than a rookie coach who never belonged as head coach doesnt mean he was good. Martin wasn't going to ever take this team anywhere.
Martin kept a team under the salary floor due to injuries in the playoff hunt, with a positive (+5) goal differential and had turned Montreal into the best 5 on 5 team they had been in over a decade. As soon as he was fired the team cratered and never recovered. Sounds like a pretty decent coach to me if he's having that big of an impact versus the baseline of a rookie coach.

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04-06-2012, 11:49 PM
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Arguing over whether RC is better than JM is like arguing over which foot fungus you want to be stuck with... neither please.

This season (apart from the stupid trades that we made) could turn out to be a blessing in disguise. We needed a top pick and we're getting one. We needed a housecleaning (absolutely we did, I don't care what the apologists say) and we're getting one. Molson has made the right call in throwing the bums out.

Now let's just hope he makes the right move when he hires the new brigade. I suspect that Muller probably could've been a better coach than Martin. Martin has never impressed me anywhere he's been and I wasn't happy when we stuck ourselves with him. So we let Muller leave and apparently told Larry Robinson to go jump in the lake... it's all speculative and I don't really care.

I just hope that going forward we make the right move. Get a guy who's serious about winning cups instead of 8th place finishes. If a guy interviews and says he wants to bypass a rebuild or fast track his way to the playoffs... don't hire him. Get a guy with longterm PLAN and VISION. The organization has lacked this for a long, long time now. It's time to stop screwing around with this.

Detroit was in a similar (although FAR worse) situation that we were in back in the early 80s. Ownership wanted to go for quick fixes and Jimmy Devellano told them to build through the draft. Most successful clubs build their teams this way and then make adjustments as needed. Not every player you draft will stick with you but it makes sense to at least accumulate a good stable of young talent, assess where you stand and go from there.

We've got to take a more long term approach and be serious about this. Unlike Detroit, we don't have to finish last for a decade. We've got a lot more talent than most of the bottomfeeding teams like NJ, Colorado or Pittsburgh had when they built their clubs.

For the last decade or so the objective has been to squeak into the playoffs and then try to win a round or two... Gunning for 8th isn't good enough. I really hope that ownership/management understand this. Molson's talk from last week gave me hope that he was sincere in his desire to hire the right guy. He genuinely seems to want to win. And he also seems like he desperately wants to hire the right guy for this. Let's hope he does just that.

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04-07-2012, 12:01 AM
  #100
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Martin kept a team under the salary floor due to injuries in the playoff hunt, with a positive (+5) goal differential and had turned Montreal into the best 5 on 5 team they had been in over a decade. As soon as he was fired the team cratered and never recovered. Sounds like a pretty decent coach to me if he's having that big of an impact versus the baseline of a rookie coach.
He also caused the worst start in what 70 years and was widly disliked by the players. The plus/minus could be easily attributed to him leaning heavily on Price like he did with Halak, this is nothing new. Martin is no coaching genius, if he was there would be multiple offers for him to go elsewhere. We played a heavy trap style game, colour me amazed we had a close plus/minus.

We also had the worst powerplay in the league which he did nothing about. We weren't in the playoff hunt, we were dying just slowly enough to seem like we were. This team was playing like it didn't want to be there and we weren't in the dance.

You can rave about how close we were by looking at stat sheets and standings all you like, the fact is the team was playing awful and our young players were suffering. Martin couldn't communicate and when Muller left you could truly see Martin was in way over his head.

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