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General Stars Talk IV: The Prequel

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Old
04-07-2012, 12:23 AM
  #51
Rune Forumwalker
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I hope so, I really do. I've been trying to hold out just a little bit of hope that Glennie has a decent enough camp (not good, no way am I hoping for that after the past few years), but just decent enough of a camp to show he's NHL-ready.

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04-07-2012, 12:33 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Why can't it be all three?
Absolutely it can be and is. Having more talent on the squad could have meant having more offensive to cover for nights where the defense breaks down. Or more depth to cover away games where our top lines got shut down. Or stronger special teams to save their butts when Ott, Souray, Morrow, and Robidas decided to take parades to the penalty box. I'm not trying to discount that factor at all.

I'm replying to the often expressed sentiment that missing the playoffs is simply a product of not having enough talent on the roster. There seems to be people who are OK giving the team a pass on everything that's happened the past few years simply because our payroll is not high enough. You see it expressed all the time on Heika's blog and occasionally here as well. "It's not the coaching, or the players, or anything. Its just we're a cap floor team without a lot of talent. What do you expect?"

To me this is shortsighted. The team had enough talent to put itself comfortably in the playoff picture 3 years in a row now. And three years in a row now they've choked under the pressure of the final weeks of the season, and folded when other teams stepped up their games. To me it isn't a talent disparity that allowed us to get in the playoffs in February but choke it away in March 3 years in a row. To me that's leadership and culture in the locker-room.


Last edited by MetalGodAOD: 04-07-2012 at 01:07 AM.
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04-07-2012, 01:05 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by UnholyPrince View Post
Absolutely it can be and is. Having more talent on the squad could have meant having more offensive to cover for nights where the defense breaks down. Or more depth to cover away games where our top lines got shut down. Or stronger special teams to save their butts when Ott, Souray, Morrow, and Robidas decided to take parades to the penalty box. I'm not trying to discount that factor at all.

I'm replying to the often expressed sentiment that missing the playoffs is simply a product of not having enough talent on the roster. There seems to be people who are OK giving the team a pass on everything that's happened the past few years simply because our payroll is not high enough. You see it expressed all the time on Heika's blog and occasionally here as well. "It's not the coaching, or the players, or anything. Its just we're a cap floor team without a lot of talent. What do you expect?"

To me this is shortsighted. The team had enough talent to put itself comfortably in the playoff picture 3 years in a row now. And three years in a row now they've choked under the pressure of the final weeks of the season, and folded when other teams stepped up their games. To me it isn't a talent disparity that aloud us to get in the playoffs in February but choke it away in March 3 years in a row. To me that's leadership and culture in the locker-room.
QFT

UnholyP, is exactly right. This locker room has to change or more of the same will happen next year. More talent may get us in the playoffs but the problems that plague this team will always crop up if this is the culture of entitlement, laziness, poor decision making, selfish play they've displayed time and again the last three seasons remains.

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Old
04-07-2012, 01:24 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Rune Forumwalker View Post
Too bad all of that potential is in Cedar Park, or will be next season.
Goligoski and Larsen are already top 4 D-men and can only get better.

Most of it will be in Austin, though.

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04-07-2012, 01:42 AM
  #55
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Goligoski and Larsen are already top 4 D-men and can only get better.

Most of it will be in Austin, though.
Daley is too

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04-07-2012, 01:59 AM
  #56
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I was referring to players with potential, but yea, him too.

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04-07-2012, 02:24 AM
  #57
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Can't help but wonder the logic behind giving guys so injured so many minutes a night...
Great point. I can understand the need to play your players in a playoff race but to lean so heavily on guys that you are coming out and saying were playing injured sounds odd to me. I hate that this all comes across as excuse-making. If they play they were okay to play. If they weren't really okay to play then they have no business being in the game. Don't cry about it after the fact.

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04-07-2012, 03:25 AM
  #58
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Don't cry about it after the fact.
This needs to be painted on every wall of the Dallas Stars locker.

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04-07-2012, 10:35 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by UnholyPrince View Post
To me this is shortsighted. The team had enough talent to put itself comfortably in the playoff picture 3 years in a row now. And three years in a row now they've choked under the pressure of the final weeks of the season, and folded when other teams stepped up their games. To me it isn't a talent disparity that allowed us to get in the playoffs in February but choke it away in March 3 years in a row. To me that's leadership and culture in the locker-room.
A talent disparity is what has kept them at the point of fighting for the 8th spot versus fighting or a top spot in the conference, but there is no arguing that there is something mental driving three late season collapses in a row.

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04-07-2012, 10:45 AM
  #60
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This needs to be painted on every wall of the Dallas Stars locker.
As long as Morrow and Ott are here, I agree.

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Old
04-07-2012, 11:42 PM
  #61
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Do you guys think Joe will be fired? 3 years under his belt with no playoffs and whatnot.

Reading Mike Heika's blog and there is one post i wanted to post here.

Posters post

Quote:
I might be completely alone in this opinion but I have not liked the Joe hire since it happened. This franchise has relied too heavily on nostalgia and ghosts from their many successful seasons in Dallas in the 90s. From letting Hull do whatever he want and then be co-GM and sign Avery to letting Joe be a GM after having zero experience and knowing the constraints financially of this team moving forward.

I have not liked one move GM Joe has made since he first took over control. First letting Tippett walk because his message had been lost by the players in the locker room. In a situation like this you should assess what really is the problem, is it the veterans or the coach. In this instance, the players were clearly the ones at fault. Joe's loyalty burned him that season with players like Modano, Turco, and Morrow being the one problems and not Tip's coaching. Hindsight is a luxury to those following sports but look what has happened since, Turco and Morrow were allowed to walk after that first season and Tip has since taken a franchise in the same financial state as the Stars to the playoffs now three times as the Stars have missed the playoffs all four years.

To me, that is the most telling statistic, the GM of the coyotes is just as financially handcuffed as Joe yet has found ways to make it work. Joe has had 3 years to make something work, to do something to show the fans he is capable of making good tough decisions. Letting Turco and Modano walk at that point in their careers was a tough but smart move, however it should have been done prior to letting Tippett walk and bringing in Crawford, his inability to assess the real problem in the locker room has doomed this team.

Looking over all of Joe's decisions as a GM, the failures stick out as overwhelming and possibly crippling this team for years to come.

First - Tippett being let go to Crawford as previously stated
Second - Not getting something, ANYTHING, for Richards before he left
Third - Trading Neal for a high risk D-man that you had hoped would be a Zubov replacement, that doesn't look like its going to ever happen and Neal is now hitting his prime
Fourth - Hiring an inexperienced (cheap) coach in Gully instead of taking on a veteran coach that wouldn't get out-changed line-wise at home on a consistent basis. Especially with what the Blues have done under Hitch who basically would have killed to come back to Dallas.
Fifth - Another trade deadline coming and going without doing anything substantial to try to add or remove for the future
Sixth - Getting very little for Grossman, if he was worth 3.5M a year to the Flyers for the next four years like he thought he might be on the open market then a 2nd and 3rd rounder is not even close to a good deal. Especially with the history of drafting for this franchise, you basically gave away an asset and got fleeced by an experienced GM
Seventh - Burning a year of Riley Smith's contract eligibility. This is something that was again high-risk high-reward. And in a case like this, you have to have the power to tell the rookie coach that he is going to be an everyday player, no matter what happens.

All in all, I hope Gaglardi makes a move to let Joe look for a job in a different market and brings in a veteran GM who knows how to build around what is here, make tough decisions on coaching, trade veteran players that might still have value but have run their course in Dallas, and change the culture in the locker room. Right now, when this team hits a rough patch, the leaders in the room are the same guys who have missed the playoffs for the past 4 seasons, and that type of mentality plants doubt and failure as a way of life.

If Gaglardi thought attendance was bad this year when he bought the team, wait until next year after four straight seasons of missing the playoffs and if Joe is allowed to stay, Gully is allowed to stay, and the same core is brought back in tact.

Here's a couple more glaring mistakes that Nieuwy has made:

1) drafting Cambpell over the top ranked Dmen in the 2010 especially Cam Fowler. Fowler was considered by most to be the #1 defenseman in the WHOLE DRAFT and he unexpectedly fell to Nieuwy. Fowler, who went straight to the NHL, would have helped fill a void and would have rendered the Neal/Goligoski trade unnecessary. Plus, the vast majority of goalies taken in the top 10 over the past decade+ have not lived up to their promise (busts). Campbell has struggled, for the most part, since being drafted and even had to have a sports psychologist at one point!

2) Trading for Langenbrunner last year. I love Jamie, but at his age and declining stage of career, he was not worth a 3rd (potential 2nd round) draft pick.

3) Drafting Glennie #8 overall in 2009. Glennie is the ONLY draftee among the top 18 that year who has NOT yet played in the NHL (until tonight) and he is among only 4 of the 30 1st round players who have not made the NHL yet. Maybe Glennie turns out just fine (let's hope so), but the slow development is not a good sign.

I could probably think of several more questionable moves or outright mistakes. To be fair, Nieuwy has made a few good moves such as:

1) In retropsect, the trade for Lehtonen seems to have been a steal.

2) He has made some decent undrafted FA signings in Fraser and Dillon.
He does make a good point

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Old
04-07-2012, 11:44 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SonicSpeed View Post
Do you guys think Joe will be fired? 3 years under his belt with no playoffs and whatnot.

Reading Mike Heika's blog and there is one post i wanted to post here.

Posters post
We haven't had an owner.. He will get at least 1 more year

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Old
04-07-2012, 11:48 PM
  #63
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We haven't had an owner.. He will get at least 1 more year
1 and 3 are also they only possible complaints, he also does nothing to praise Joe for the good job he has done on other things, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at the Grossmann one

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04-08-2012, 12:00 AM
  #64
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The "getting something for Richards" is an hackneyed argument. Richards held the cards and he wasn't willing to waive his NMC to facilitate a trade- even if were for negotiating rights. That is not on Joe, I'm sorry to say.

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04-08-2012, 12:07 AM
  #65
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1 and 3 are also they only possible complaints, he also does nothing to praise Joe for the good job he has done on other things, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at the Grossmann one
This. That's just insane, what he says. He's grabbing at straws at all but 1 and 3.

Just curious, does anyone know how much NHL coaches are making? I want to see how much Crawford made as compared to Laviolette. The only logical reason for choosing Crawford was financial constraints.

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04-08-2012, 12:14 AM
  #66
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Did he event mention Ryder? I read through pretty quick.

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04-08-2012, 12:18 AM
  #67
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Did he event mention Ryder? I read through pretty quick.
Nope. That was a great acquisition.

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04-08-2012, 12:19 AM
  #68
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I used to be on the "fire GMJN" bangwagon, but ive turned the corner. He's made alot of smart moves and tough decisions. Can't particularly blame him that our current leadership group doesnt know how to get up for big games and constantly ***** the bed. I think its painfully obvious Joe sees this now too, and is going to 'rid the cancer' during the offseason.

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04-08-2012, 12:22 AM
  #69
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Joe will most certainly not be fired. Short of blowing up the team completely, he has done a pretty decent job of keeping the team somewhat competitive. More competitive than the abysmal Phoenix Coyotes teams of the past decade. He brought in Kari, Ryder, gave Larsen and Vincour their chances to stick, and has drafted pretty well outside of the big question marks in Glennie, Campbell and Oleksiak.

Next year, I hope we will see Joe put together a team that will be able to compete and succeed. With the veterans we have, we won't. With Gully, we might not, but that remains to be seen. We don't know what kind of social dynamics go on in the locker room. Maybe the old guard needs to be fractured and re-integrated. Maybe we need to put the leadership in the locker room onto someone who will keep things realistically optimistic and not be the guy who creates a divide between management and the other players. Maybe we just need to round out the roster with guys who are capable hockey players to compliment our slowly deteriorating veteran complement?

We need to find a coach with more oomph and a roster with more reliable talent that comes out to play hockey. I hope Gaglardi gives Joe a leash next year, but GMJN needs to go out and right the ship.

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04-08-2012, 12:24 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Frozen Failure View Post
Joe will most certainly not be fired. Short of blowing up the team completely, he has done a pretty decent job of keeping the team somewhat competitive. More competitive than the abysmal Phoenix Coyotes teams of the past decade. He brought in Kari, Ryder, gave Larsen and Vincour their chances to stick, and has drafted pretty well outside of the big question marks in Glennie, Campbell and Oleksiak.

Next year, I hope we will see Joe put together a team that will be able to compete and succeed. With the veterans we have, we won't. With Gully, we might not, but that remains to be seen. We don't know what kind of social dynamics go on in the locker room. Maybe the old guard needs to be fractured and re-integrated. Maybe we need to put the leadership in the locker room onto someone who will keep things realistically optimistic and not be the guy who creates a divide between management and the other players. Maybe we just need to round out the roster with guys who are capable hockey players to compliment our slowly deteriorating veteran complement?

We need to find a coach with more oomph and a roster with more reliable talent that comes out to play hockey. I hope Gaglardi gives Joe a leash next year, but GMJN needs to go out and right the ship.
Oleksiak is a question mark? I'm sorry I don't follow the prospects too hard, was he not who we should have drafted?

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04-08-2012, 12:27 AM
  #71
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Oleksiak is a question mark? I'm sorry I don't follow the prospects too hard, was he not who we should have drafted?
Was wondering that too. He was a great pick, and definitely not off the board like Glennie and Campbell.

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04-08-2012, 12:27 AM
  #72
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Oleksiaks definitely not a question mark.

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04-08-2012, 12:28 AM
  #73
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The "getting something for Richards" is an hackneyed argument. Richards held the cards and he wasn't willing to waive his NMC to facilitate a trade- even if were for negotiating rights. That is not on Joe, I'm sorry to say.
On top of that, there's no way Richards was going to get traded at the deadline when the Stars hadn't yet begun their annual collapse and Richards was dealing with concussion issues.

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04-08-2012, 12:32 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ampersand View Post
Oleksiak is a question mark? I'm sorry I don't follow the prospects too hard, was he not who we should have drafted?
The entire 2011 draft save 5 players is a question mark. Does Jamie Oleksiak become Chara or Gill with more mobility? Do guys drafted after him (Armia, Beaulieau) become bigger impact players?

I'd say all three of our first rounders have a solid shot at being great impact players at the NHL level, but it remains to be seen that they can stick.

It's too soon to put a ! on these guys... but Oleksiak is probably the least "what are they doing?!" question mark and just a developmental question mark.

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04-08-2012, 12:35 AM
  #75
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The entire 2011 draft save 5 players is a question mark. Does Jamie Oleksiak become Chara or Gill with more mobility? Do guys drafted after him (Armia, Beaulieau) become bigger impact players?
You could make an argument like this for just about every player ever drafted.

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