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General Talk '12 — Finland

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Old
04-06-2012, 02:15 PM
  #351
FiLe
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Even with mine . My concern here is:

Ruutu - M.Koivu - Selänne - I want some good passer feeding Selanne here, M.Koivu is good in it, but we got better ones, so I don't want to waste Selanne

Filppula - S.Koivu - Leino - I'm just doubtful about Leino+Filppula, I'm afraid this line would be invisible for some reason, I rather replace Leino with some energy (or physical) player here. Again I'd feel like someone would be wasted and it could be Filppula.
The thing is, Leino is an extremely high maintenance player. A player like that does not go together with Mikko and Tuomo, we've seen that a bunch of times. Players like OJ, Aaltonen are good examples. The kind of guy who usually does is a good utility player, such J.Jokinen or Pyörälä.

I know, Selänne doesn't exactly fit that bill, but at least he's more straightforward than Leino. And in my suggestion, there are no players on placings that just rub wrong with them, such as natural centres playing wing and whatnot. Less broken token pairs, too.

And I specifically placed Leino with Filppula because I want them together, based solely on the grounds that we do have some evidence of those two being able to collaborate. And Saku is another guy I know works with just about anybody.


My concern with a top-9 like that is that it just doesn't make a good team. It'll become more like a game of musical chairs, and there's always at least one odd man out who doesn't quite work no matter where you place him. However, I'm also quite certain that if Jalonen, despite all his team-building talk, has those nine forwards available and willing to come, those are the nine he will pick and try to work with. It's too shiny an opportunity to pass up.


My greatest fear is that with a lineup like that it'll be 2008 WHC or Vancouver all over again. In both tournaments we had pieces that just didn't match together but still had to have a roster spot based on name alone. In 2008 two guys who had played better (namely J.Jokinen and Pihlström) didn't get the treatment they deserved because there was a high-maintenance big name (OJ) who had to be shoehorned into a respectable slot in the lineup no matter what. Same almost occured in Vancouver as well but this time Jalonen decided to make OJ the one who ultimately paid the price. He po'd the guy, but it was the right call.

The hair on my neck goes up every time I see a ton of big and "big" names in one lineup, even if it's nothing but fan speculation. We don't need a dream team, what we need is a Team. And honestly, I'm hoping some of 'em decide to stay away by their own incentive, because it takes one ballsy coach to make that kind of cut.


And oh, Mestaruus, what's with you typing Selänne as "Selanne", considering you apparently do have umlauts available? Just curious.


Last edited by FiLe: 04-06-2012 at 02:20 PM.
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04-06-2012, 03:58 PM
  #352
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What about:

-Juuso Hietanen (currently on the EHT roster and had 2 goals against SUI today)
-Ilkka Heikkinen (had a great season in the SEL)

Great to see that our usual weak spot on defense has received much depth in the past few years. Even though we are missing top end NHL caliber guys, we have some solid D that play in Europe.

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04-06-2012, 04:11 PM
  #353
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http://www.iltalehti.fi/jaakiekko/20...22803_jk.shtml

According to the IL article, the following players are likely (with a few less likely):
Mikko Koivu, Tuomo Ruutu, Jussi Jokinen, Teemu Selanne, Ville Leino, Petteri Nokelainen, Lennart Petrell, Antti Miettinen, Teemu Hartikainen, and Niklas Backstrom.

Unlikely:
Joni Pitkanen, Saku Koivu, Olli Jokinen, Kari Lehtonen, and Miikka Kiprusoff.

Niklas Hagman, and Toni Lydman have already stated they will not be coming.

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04-06-2012, 05:02 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Sebastian Bach View Post
-Juuso Hietanen (currently on the EHT roster and had 2 goals against SUI today)
-Ilkka Heikkinen (had a great season in the SEL)
I really like what Hietanen can bring to the table offensively, but I'm still not sold on him to be able to play defense that's solid enough for WHC stage. Still, I suppose he does have a fair shot now that Vatanen is sidelined, especially if he keeps racking up points.

Heikkinen has been available since SEL regular season ended so he should already be on the camp if he was in contention, IMO. Well, I suppose there's still a chance he joins next week.

But in general, I like too what has happened with our defense depth in the last years. While the numbers of top-end talent has come down quite a bit, we do seem to have far wider pool of utility players than in the past.


http://www.sportti.com/uutinen.asp?CAT=2-4&ID=215717

Here's another story speculating on NHL aids. If we are to combine what we know between this one and that Iltalehti article, looks like four players are a highly likely deal at the moment: M.Koivu, J.Jokinen, Petrell and Leino. If Tuomo Ruutu shows up too, I'd even say that's all we need at the moment.

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04-06-2012, 06:10 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by LatexiKledjut View Post
If things go well, nothing will change in the Finnish hockey association. How the **** is that going to "take finnish hockey to a whole new level"? They'll never use the money to build new rinks or make the hobby cheaper. Instead it'll go to paying that lard-ass Kummola's restaurant bills.

I hope we suck badly and get those greedy, idiotic, parasites out of the organization.


Wishful thinking, though, I guess..
Sucking badly will not do anything to get them out, but doing well and geting money will help finnish hockey wether it's with Kummola on board or not. Maybe not to a new level but it will help. Saying that the money goes to his restourant bills is just retarded, it's not like he gets the money himself. He might be somewhat of a dictator in the finnish hockey assosiation but it doesn't mean he's a fraud. Just because he looks like jabba the hut doesn't mean he uses 100k a year for meatballs and prostitutes.

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04-06-2012, 06:33 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by YARR123 View Post
Just because he looks like jabba the hut doesn't mean he uses 100k a year for meatballs and prostitutes.
This.

I mean, there must be something budgeted for the liquor as well...

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04-06-2012, 07:41 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
The thing is, Leino is an extremely high maintenance player. A player like that does not go together with Mikko and Tuomo, we've seen that a bunch of times.
I do agree that he's high maintenance player and I do think only 1 of these players should be in one line. There's also another thing I pay very close attention to, a feature that high maintenance players usually have, players that like to keep the puck a lot, so basically playmakers and I see Filppula as one, but maybe that high maintenance doesn't really fit Filppula or say Granlund like it does fit for players like Leino or Aaltonen.

So anyways i'm interested to hear why Leino wouldn't work with T.Ruutu & M.Koivu. Which one of these players do you see as high maintenance or why do you think it wouldn't work? Oh, seems like you did say Leino wouldn't work, because OJ and Aaltonen didn't work. Well, IMO it's not that simple every time, they all may be high maintenance players, but they are not clones, so I still need to see it before I believe it. It could surprise us what kind of chemistry they could have together. I rather see T.Ruutu-M.Koivu-Leino than 2 forwards that enjoy keeping the puck and using their creativity, hence I've separated Granlund, Filppula, Leino to different lines.

You said there's proven evidence that Filppula+Leino works. I didn't know about that. Did they play together in Jokerit? If true sounds interesting and I'd be interested seeing them together in that case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
And oh, Mestaruus, what's with you typing Selänne as "Selanne", considering you apparently do have umlauts available? Just curious.
Just not paying much attention and if you noticed I typed it right with Ä once . The second time when I wrote it as 'Selanne' I was probably hungry and started thinking of salami.


Last edited by Mestaruus: 04-06-2012 at 07:48 PM.
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04-06-2012, 07:58 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Sebastian Bach View Post
According to the IL article, the following players are likely (with a few less likely):
Mikko Koivu, Tuomo Ruutu, Jussi Jokinen, Teemu Selanne, Ville Leino, Petteri Nokelainen, Lennart Petrell, Antti Miettinen, Teemu Hartikainen, and Niklas Backstrom.
Hmm I thought Hartikainen is going to play in AHL playoffs, he's still going right?

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04-06-2012, 09:06 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by LatexiKledjut View Post
If things go well, nothing will change in the Finnish hockey association. How the **** is that going to "take finnish hockey to a whole new level"? They'll never use the money to build new rinks or make the hobby cheaper. Instead it'll go to paying that lard-ass Kummola's restaurant bills.

I hope we suck badly and get those greedy, idiotic, parasites out of the organization.


Wishful thinking, though, I guess..
Wow u are really far from reality... Living still with your mom and dad?

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04-07-2012, 01:35 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
I do agree that he's high maintenance player and I do think only 1 of these players should be in one line. There's also another thing I pay very close attention to, a feature that high maintenance players usually have, players that like to keep the puck a lot, so basically playmakers and I see Filppula as one, but maybe that high maintenance doesn't really fit Filppula or say Granlund like it does fit for players like Leino or Aaltonen.
Actually, playmakers are NOT the types to hold the puck. They're the kind who hold it when they see it fit, but if they see an open lane to pass it away, they'll take it every time. In fact, good playmakers are the smartest, most adaptive part of any line. If they have linesmates who like to be in possession, they hang back and concentrate on aiding the defense. If they have highly passive linesmates instead, they might take more charge. And any variation between.

In nutshell, guys like MG or Filppula don't "like" to hold the puck per se, they simply end up holding it if they're to adopt the line's go-to-guy role.

The ones who are known to hog the puck no matter what are danglers, spin-o-rama champions and other "artistic" souls. In other words, the guys who like to do it themselves. In fact, the whole word, "playmaker" conflicts again the opinion of them being possessive, since isn't their whole function to set other people up?

In fact, since Mikko is a smart playmaker too, maybe I shouldn't say there's anything inherently wrong in placing him (and Tuomo too) next to any kind of player, since he'll adapt just as well. It's just that whether you want a guy like him be more offensive or defensive. If you think Koivu and Ruutu should be the offensive dynamos of the line, you complement 'em with a good utility player who takes up most of the defensive duties. If you want them to be more defensive instead, you make sure the guy next to them is one who's a natural fit for the position and can find the net, guaranteed. Just make sure he isn't usually playing centre, since that is Mikko's lane no matter whether he's going for one-way or two-way game. I think this sums up pretty well why I placed Selänne next to 'em.

Bottom line, I dunno. Maybe Leino could work. He'd have to find a crazy scoring stride, but if he does, then well... maybe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
You said there's proven evidence that Filppula+Leino works. I didn't know about that. Did they play together in Jokerit? If true sounds interesting and I'd be interested seeing them together in that case.
Better. The Red Wings. They played about third a season together before Leino was traded to the Flyers. Granted, they did have bit of a trouble finding the net but their game looked real nice otherwise, the chemistry was very obviously there. That's why I'd like to give 'em a second chance, perhaps this time under a different, more familiar coach. I think part of why Leino had trouble finding his natural stride was because he felt a bit nervous under Mike Babcock. Something just tells me Jalonen wouldn't have similar effect.


But eh. All of this is such moot speculating considering it's highly unlikely we're going to have all of those top-level guys available. Rather than building fantasy rosters, perhaps we should concentrate on speculating with names who are more than likely to show up.


So, currently it seems we have four NHL guys who are likely to show up: M.Koivu, J.Jokinen, Leino and Petrell. And according to sources, there are two others who might come too if they're not too banged up, Ruutu and Nokelainen. And oh yeah, I guess Antti Miettinen might consider showing up too. Yay.

And yeah, Härski is going to the AHL playoffs, no question.


So, let's see...

Jokinen - Koivu - Ruutu
Leino - Kapanen - Aaltonen
Komarov - Immonen - Granlund
Petrell - Nokelainen - Joensuu

is a good starting point, no?


A couple of notes. First, I figure Komarov is ready to step out of the shoes of a token headbanger, with the way he's been playing this season and especially in KHL playoffs.

2nd line. Disaster material, I know. But if we're not to have enough wingers, I do have the vibe that Aaltonen just does come in somewhere. I hear he's gotten more straightforward (as has Leino too, apparently)... so high risk, high reward.

And I just ignored Miettinen. I don't want him anywhere near our offensive lines and while he does bring some solid complementary two-way game to the table, I do think we do have more natural guys available for those roles as of now. Jalonen might disagree though, I'm fully aware of that. Well, he could end up being in the place of Aaltonen in 2nd, but I don't see how that's an improvement.


I'd like to get at least two of Filppula, Korpikoski and Bergenheim from the first round. If we do, we're pretty much set. Even one would be an asset to complementary linebuilding. But too early to speculate with that now, IMO.


Last edited by FiLe: 04-07-2012 at 01:41 AM.
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04-07-2012, 02:38 AM
  #361
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http://yle.fi/urheilu/lajit/jaakiekk...a_3391353.html

2nd camp roster.


Nice to see Söderholm in. No need to speculate anymore whether he's interested or not.

Not so pleased to see Peltonen however. Now that he's in, I just don't see him get cut unless he breaks both of his legs or something. Oh well.

Also, where's Granlund? He was to join the first camp already, then they said he'll join this week but he's not there. Still room to join later, of course, but it's a bit strange.


Other notable absences are Niko Kapanen (though Jalonen does tend to give him a lot of leeway) and the Magnitogorsk forward duo, Aaltonen and Kontiola. I'd also like to see Petteri Wirtanen join, he's a very realistic candidate for 4th line centre IMO.


Last edited by FiLe: 04-07-2012 at 02:45 AM.
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04-07-2012, 04:16 AM
  #362
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Wow u are really far from reality... Living still with your mom and dad?
Dumbest post I've read in a while around the HF, and that's saying something...

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04-07-2012, 07:41 AM
  #363
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Wow u are really far from reality... Living still with your mom and dad?
explain

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04-07-2012, 09:26 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post

Jokinen - Koivu - Ruutu
Leino - Kapanen - Aaltonen
Komarov - Immonen - Granlund
Petrell - Nokelainen - Joensuu
That's already an improvement over our last year's gold squad IMO.

As long as we keep the core players the same: Mikko Koivu, Ruutu, Immonen, Kapanen, Komarov and Granlund, and the defense and goaltending remain basically the same.. I think we have a good shot at gold again.

Even if we did not get Rudy, but replaced him with a guy like Leino (or the Joker), I think we're
laughing.

What I DON'T want to see is guys like Peltonen (who is past his best before date by several years), step into the lineup and take away a position from a younger guy. That's the recipe that has brought us nothing but mild success and significant failure in the past.

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04-07-2012, 11:34 AM
  #365
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What I DON'T want to see is guys like Peltonen (who is past his best before date by several years), step into the lineup and take away a position from a younger guy. That's the recipe that has brought us nothing but mild success and significant failure in the past.
The thing is, now that he's entered camp the odds are he will make the cut.

I suppose Jalonen wants him not only for his skill and experience but for his off-ice presence as well. And well, if he's healthy, I guess he can still pass as 2nd-3rd line winger. Peltonen-Kapanen-Leino or Peltonen-Immonen-Granlund sounds... passable, I guess.

What's a bit curious however is where we're currently standing at centre. The only WHC-worthy centre forward we have currently at camp is Immonen. Of course M.Koivu and Kapanen still have time to show up and if they do we're set, but still craving to hear more about their status. Same goes for Kontiola, too. Oh well. Suppose it won't matter as long as Jalonen knows where they stand.

Then there's the issue of 4th line centre on top of that. All we need is Nokelainen who appears to be available but there was a newspiece earlier that claimed he may have an injury. Who's to take the role if he doesn't make it? Wirtanen didn't enter camp and to be honest, he was a bit lackluster in the playoffs. Kuparinen was quite solid in the role on EHT and he is there. Heck, even Salomäki might have a slight chance. Oh, and then there's Hahl of course.

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04-07-2012, 12:49 PM
  #366
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Yes File you are right in that I kinda said it wrong about playmakers. I kinda thought what you said, but it's hard to put it into words, but you put it well there, but the thing I meant and you said was the same. Aaltonen & Leino are completely different when compared to Granlund, Filppula type of players.

Also about Mikko Koivu. Why I wouldn't mind having Leino with Mikko and Tuomo is that I never expect any scoring from Mikko. Few years ago I did and it's always little bit disappointing to me, so I've stopped expecting scoring from him as long as he can do ½ points a game average or so, if I remember right it was slightly above that in last spring's WC. So, because of this Mikko could indeed take more defensive role in this line while having Tuomo bulldozing in the offensive end & masking etc and Leino doing his 'art' .

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Jokinen - Koivu - Ruutu
Leino - Kapanen - Aaltonen
Komarov - Immonen - Granlund
Petrell - Nokelainen - Joensuu

is a good starting point, no?
Rather good yeah. I like Komarov - Immonen - Granlund, but yeah Leino & Aaltonen hmm. It might be true Aaltonen is more straightforward so could be worth testing, but I got my doubts about that. Getting more straightforward in Russia sounds odd. Doesn't it usually go in the other direction. Perhaps he stands out in Russia as more straightforward but when he's in NT that straightforward might not be so straightforward anymore even if he doesn't change his play style at all. I'd rather have Aaltonen as a reserve and have maybe Joensuu in line #2, but i'm not sure I want to see Joensuu playing PP. He could be a decent mask man I suppose.

Wasn't Miettinen in HPK at the same time when Jalonen was a coach there? If that was the case Jalonen might take him (unfortunately). I disagreed last year about him picking another ex HPK player Pyörälä, but I like Pyörälä now and if Joensuu would be moved to line #2 instead of Aaltonen Pyörälä would have a spot in #4 line.

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04-07-2012, 01:05 PM
  #367
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I do have to say that i'm positively surprised that Jalonen gave Salomäki a chance to show what he can do in men's team, but then again did he really? He's probably just a temporarily replacement since Pihlström had to go somewhere for personal reasons and Salomäki might be in a similar replacement role as Ortio was. It's nice to get him some experience anyways.

I got a weird feeling Jalonen has some inside information about Selänne and S.Koivu that he's not telling us yet and for that reason he took Peltonen in to strenghten our leadership department if Saku and Teemu aren't coming, but I personally wouldn't take Peltonen in the team anyways. We got Mikko and time to build new leaders beside Mikko if necessary.

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04-07-2012, 01:09 PM
  #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
The thing is, now that he's entered camp the odds are he will make the cut.

I suppose Jalonen wants him not only for his skill and experience but for his off-ice presence as well. And well, if he's healthy, I guess he can still pass as 2nd-3rd line winger. Peltonen-Kapanen-Leino or Peltonen-Immonen-Granlund sounds... passable, I guess.

What's a bit curious however is where we're currently standing at centre. The only WHC-worthy centre forward we have currently at camp is Immonen. Of course M.Koivu and Kapanen still have time to show up and if they do we're set, but still craving to hear more about their status. Same goes for Kontiola, too. Oh well. Suppose it won't matter as long as Jalonen knows where they stand.

Then there's the issue of 4th line centre on top of that. All we need is Nokelainen who appears to be available but there was a newspiece earlier that claimed he may have an injury. Who's to take the role if he doesn't make it? Wirtanen didn't enter camp and to be honest, he was a bit lackluster in the playoffs. Kuparinen was quite solid in the role on EHT and he is there. Heck, even Salomäki might have a slight chance. Oh, and then there's Hahl of course.
In regards to Peltonen. We don't really need Peltonen's experience, etc. We have many of the guys from last year's squad that won the gold medal. That should be experience enough.

What we need is a player that gives 100%, and I can't see Peltonen at his age giving the same kind of effort as someone like Joensuu for example. Also, Peltonen is small and old and does not have any physical presence that I am aware of.

Let's stick with the winning game plan like last year. I really hope Jalonen learned his lesson: Young teams win gold.

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04-07-2012, 02:34 PM
  #369
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Isn't Kontiola better option than Niko Kapanen? Komarov - Kontiola - Aaltonen as a third line, sounds ok for me...especially if Saku won't play...

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04-07-2012, 04:05 PM
  #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Rather good yeah. I like Komarov - Immonen - Granlund, but yeah Leino & Aaltonen hmm. It might be true Aaltonen is more straightforward so could be worth testing, but I got my doubts about that. Getting more straightforward in Russia sounds odd. Doesn't it usually go in the other direction. Perhaps he stands out in Russia as more straightforward but when he's in NT that straightforward might not be so straightforward anymore even if he doesn't change his play style at all. I'd rather have Aaltonen as a reserve and have maybe Joensuu in line #2, but i'm not sure I want to see Joensuu playing PP. He could be a decent mask man I suppose.
Hmm. The thing is, Aaltonen has looked a bit different in KHL this year and he has been more of a shooter, less of a dangler in EHT as well. Still, we've yet to see him deliver that to WHC stage, so it's good to be wary, I suppose.

Though we could have yet another moot point in our hands. Aaltonen may not be in contention anymore since something tells me he should have been added to the camp today, and there are other guys competing for those 2nd-3rd line winger roles such as Peltonen, Pesonen and Pyörälä.

Also, considering Peltonen is pretty much the guy to go when catering the needs of high-maintenance players, it could be worth a shot to place him in the same line with Leino. Peltonen-Kapanen-Leino does sound quite organic for 2nd or 3rd line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Wasn't Miettinen in HPK at the same time when Jalonen was a coach there? If that was the case Jalonen might take him (unfortunately). I disagreed last year about him picking another ex HPK player Pyörälä, but I like Pyörälä now and if Joensuu would be moved to line #2 instead of Aaltonen Pyörälä would have a spot in #4 line.
Yeah, Miettinen is a huge Jalonen familiar. But where on Earth have you got in your head that Pyörälä is a former Kerho guy, he's never played for that club. In SM-liiga, he's never represented any other club than Kärpät.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian Bach View Post
In regards to Peltonen. We don't really need Peltonen's experience, etc. We have many of the guys from last year's squad that won the gold medal. That should be experience enough.
I'm not particularly excited about Peltonen either but now that he's there (and will be, no question) might as well try and find something positive about it.

And I do think it's a bit different from last year, considering this is home ice, overcharged media all around them and there are bit larger expectations as well. Last year they played in the middle of nowhere (relatively speaking, no offence Slovaks) with a rather noname team - heck, even Jalonen himself stated that aiming for gold isn't realistic with that squad, as ironic as it may seem in hindsight. The off-ice hulabaloo can be quite something, and Peltonen can likely help the team to deal with that.

So yeah, maybe we don't need him that badly. But that doesn't automatically mean he's useless and not an asset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian Bach View Post
Let's stick with the winning game plan like last year. I really hope Jalonen learned his lesson: Young teams win gold.
No, teams with healthy composition of players from enthusiastic youngsters to experienced veterans win gold. That's the kind of team we had last year.

S.Kapanen won't be there, Nummelin won't be there, the odds are Saku and Teemu won't be there. I don't think one Peltonen alone is quite enough to turn this into a veteran sauna buddy fest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by master4071 View Post
Isn't Kontiola better option than Niko Kapanen? Komarov - Kontiola - Aaltonen as a third line, sounds ok for me...especially if Saku won't play...
Nah. Kapanen > Kontiola is the correct equation, though not by a country mile. While Kapanen is still the preferred one due to his huge reliability and experience, I suppose many wouldn't mind much if Kontiola were to replace him, since he definitely has what it takes to succeed on WHC level, too.

Though if we were to look for a partner specifically to Aaltonen, p'haps then I'd edge Kontiola considering they're a token pair in their club team as well.


Last edited by FiLe: 04-07-2012 at 04:21 PM.
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04-08-2012, 01:10 PM
  #371
Mestaruus
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My bad about Pyörälä. Remembered wrong then .

Yes Kapanen>Kontiola IMO as well. Kapanen has had 1 of his best seasons this season based on stats, but Kontiola has had a pretty good season too I think so it's not an easy decision, but I'd take Kapanen for the WC experience factor and knowing how reliable player he is and Jalonen wouldn't leave him out.

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04-08-2012, 01:42 PM
  #372
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Rinne maybe ?

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04-08-2012, 02:26 PM
  #373
InjuredChoker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBarmada View Post
Rinne maybe ?
I would like to keep that option.

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04-08-2012, 03:00 PM
  #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBarmada View Post
Rinne maybe ?
Rinne is not needed if Lehtonen comes.

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04-09-2012, 10:28 AM
  #375
Caniac4ever
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Hey guys!

Hurricanes fan here just popping in to say that that the Hurricanes writer tweeted this morning that Jussi Jokinen will play in the WC, Joni Pitkanen will not, and Tuomo Ruutu is undecided.

He didn't include this, but I'm quite sure Tuomo's wife is expecting their first child shortly, so that may be the reason he hasn't given his answer yet.

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