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Greatest Forwards of All Time #8

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest forward of all time? #8
Phil Esposito 15 34.88%
Stan Mikita 1 2.33%
Mark Messier 13 30.23%
Howie Morenz 9 20.93%
Mike Bossy 3 6.98%
Bobby Clarke 1 2.33%
Jaromir Jagr 1 2.33%
Steve Yzerman 0 0%
Bryan Trottier 0 0%
Ted Lindsay 0 0%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-27-2006, 07:48 PM
  #1
canucksfan
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Greatest Forwards of All Time #8

Since LaFleur is easily winning the tiebreaker with Messier I might as well do #8 now. Ted Lindsay will be added. I voted for Howie Morenz and add Milt Schmidt.

#1 Gretzky(64.71%)
#2 Lemieux(63.77%)
#3 Howe(63.41%)
#4 Richard(31.58%)
#5 Beliveau(53.49%)
#6 Hull(28.81%)
#7 LaFleur(72.73% won tiebreaker)

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Old
02-27-2006, 08:13 PM
  #2
Weztex
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Also voted Morenz. Add Dionne.

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Old
02-27-2006, 08:51 PM
  #3
reckoning
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Vote Morenz again.

Add Geoffrion or Apps.

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Old
02-27-2006, 09:27 PM
  #4
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Good common sense move, canucksfan, in ending the blowout tie-breaker early. Time to move on.

Nice to see the great Morenz get some respect. In keeping with tradition, I'll withhold my vote until the end.

I'm going to go a little off the board and suggest it's time to add the winningest player in the history of the game: Henri Richard. If you're good enough to be a key contributor to 11 Stanley Cup champions, then you deserve to be added to this poll at this point.

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Old
02-27-2006, 10:12 PM
  #5
Puckclektr
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I don't get how so many people can vot eon these threads. HOw can you tell who was the better hockey player if you never really saw them play. Stats? Word of mouth? Guessing? I am 30 and I never saw HOwe, Richard, Hull, Beliveau, Morenz, Apps, Morenz, Geoffrion etc. Even Lafleur. I was 12 when he retired. I watched him near the end of his prime, but don't really remember much.... How old is everyone doing the polls, 50-60? If not, how can you tell? Just curious.

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Old
02-27-2006, 10:20 PM
  #6
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Howie Morenz

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Old
02-27-2006, 10:27 PM
  #7
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Messier for the fourth time in a row.... Messier blew a lead last time.... let's hope he can keep it this time.

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Old
02-27-2006, 11:03 PM
  #8
hockeyfan125
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Esposito

I haven't seen all of these guys, but I have seen a bunch of classic B games. (Its why I have so much respect for Orr).

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Old
02-27-2006, 11:25 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tookhavlatandtanguay
Messier for the fourth time in a row.... Messier blew a lead last time.... let's hope he can keep it this time.
He's going to win this one and rightfully so.

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Old
02-27-2006, 11:53 PM
  #10
Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangible_faith
I don't get how so many people can vot eon these threads. HOw can you tell who was the better hockey player if you never really saw them play. Stats? Word of mouth? Guessing? I am 30 and I never saw HOwe, Richard, Hull, Beliveau, Morenz, Apps, Morenz, Geoffrion etc. Even Lafleur. I was 12 when he retired. I watched him near the end of his prime, but don't really remember much.... How old is everyone doing the polls, 50-60? If not, how can you tell? Just curious.
I go by stats mostly. That gives you most of the picture in most cases.

The main categories I look at in evaluating players:

-Peak Offensive Ability: Best scoring seasons relative to league average, how great were they and how many great seasons did they have?
-Career Offensive Ability: Adjust scoring to reflect scoring during era they played.
-Hardware: How many Cups and/or Hart/Pearson, Conn Smythe, Ross, Vezina trophies did they win?
-Playoff stats: Did they perform well in playoffs or were they a non-factor?
-Defense: Hard to evaluate, especially if haven't seen player play, but career +/- can give some indication.
-Context: Were the player's stats/accomplishments significantly affected for better or worse by the teams he played on? Did he have the supporting cast to win Cups, but failed to do so? Did he play on a weak team, but consistently led them to the playoffs? Did he play his whole career on a line with all-star players, or with no-name stiffs? In evaluating +/-, did he play on a team with a relatively weak defense/goalie or the opposite?


Last edited by Czech Your Math: 02-28-2006 at 12:05 AM.
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Old
02-28-2006, 05:45 AM
  #11
pappyline
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Vote Morenz, add Max Bentley.

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Old
02-28-2006, 06:09 AM
  #12
#66
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Esposito. People forget how record setting his points were. Please add Malone, Cook, Dionne, Perreault, Mahovlich and Kharlamov. Does Kharlamov count?

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02-28-2006, 03:43 PM
  #13
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Add Bure.

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02-28-2006, 04:20 PM
  #14
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Esposito. Add Francis

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Old
02-28-2006, 04:25 PM
  #15
canucksfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #66
Esposito. People forget how record setting his points were. Please add Malone, Cook, Dionne, Perreault, Mahovlich and Kharlamov. Does Kharlamov count?
Kharlamov does count but like so many of the great Russians I find it hard to compare them to the players that played in the NHL.

I am only adding one player at a time.

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Old
02-28-2006, 04:43 PM
  #16
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Voted for the Moose for the 4th time in a row (I really can't stop now).

Add Marcel Dionne

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Old
02-28-2006, 10:25 PM
  #17
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I concur on both, scoob.

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Old
03-01-2006, 06:28 PM
  #18
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It's a joke that the greatest leader in all of hockey and one of the top ones in all of sports is in danger of not even making the top 10.

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Old
03-01-2006, 06:56 PM
  #19
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I don't feel any shame to see him behind better players...it is not a popularity contest.

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Old
03-01-2006, 07:16 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tookhavlatandtanguay
It's a joke that the greatest leader in all of hockey and one of the top ones in all of sports is in danger of not even making the top 10.
Messier isn't the best leader in all of hockey. Just out of the players that are listed Clarke, Trottier and Yzerman are better leaders than Messier. It's very close between but I would give an edge to all three of those players over Messier. Furthermore, Phil Esposito's leadership is very underrated. I wouldn't say he is a better leader than Messier but he is pretty close.

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Old
03-01-2006, 07:23 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tookhavlatandtanguay
It's a joke that the greatest leader in all of hockey and one of the top ones in all of sports is in danger of not even making the top 10.

The masses have spoken. You're in the minority, apparently.

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Old
03-01-2006, 07:46 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tookhavlatandtanguay
It's a joke that the greatest leader in all of hockey and one of the top ones in all of sports is in danger of not even making the top 10.
Actually, the greatest leader in all of hockey went No. 5: Jean Beliveau. That's right about where he belongs. Watch the 1972 Summit Series, and you'll see the best leader in the post-Beliveau era: Phil Esposito. I'd rate Clarke as a leader ahead of Messier, too.

I voted for Espo, BTW. Maybe the best goal-scoring centre ever, outside of Lemieux. A money player in the playoffs. And in the most important series in the history of hockey, the 1972 Summit Series, he was the best player on the ice and carried his team on his back.

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Old
03-01-2006, 08:29 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan
Messier isn't the best leader in all of hockey. Just out of the players that are listed Clarke, Trottier and Yzerman are better leaders than Messier. It's very close between but I would give an edge to all three of those players over Messier. Furthermore, Phil Esposito's leadership is very underrated. I wouldn't say he is a better leader than Messier but he is pretty close.
Here's my take on Messier's leadership. People who claim that Messier is the greatest leader of all time must accept two contradictory statements at the same time. They say that 1) Messier's leadership was an extremely important reason behind the success of the Oilers and Rangers winning Cups; but 2) Messier's leadership is not to blame for the Canuck and Rangers failing to make the playoffs for seven years. If Messier's leadership was so important in 1), why does his lack of leadership get ignored in 2)? Conversely, if people choose to diminish the importance of 2), why do they put so much emphasis on 1)?

If team success is an important criteria in evaluating a captain's leadership (something that most Messier fans seem to support), then there's no way Messier can be ranked as a better leader than someone like Jean Beliveau or Bryan Trottier.

====

I voted for Esposito. Add Syl Apps, Senior. I'll vote for Messier at #13, if he's still here by then.

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Old
03-01-2006, 08:52 PM
  #24
reckoning
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While it`s possible that Messier`s reputation as a great leader has been slightly overblown by the media and fans, I`ve heard enough of his ex-teammates talk about it to be convinced that he was indeed a respected leader. It`s entirely possible that his heart wasn`t in it as much when he got older. The last 7 years of his career were disappointing, but what it have been better if he retired in `97? Look at it this way: Robert de Niro has had some mediocre acting performances lately, but that doesn`t change how brilliant he was in Taxi Driver or Raging Bull.

My favourite Messier story I ever read: in `87 the Oilers acquired Kent Nilsson at the trade deadline. After a few games of Nilsson doing his usual floating routine, Messier took him aside one day and told him if he didn`t shape up he`d regret it. Nilsson played great the rest of the season and through the playoffs, Edmonton won the Cup, then he went to Europe and decided to stay there.

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