Please forgive me if this thread has occurred before.
First while I am a CIS fan (I am an alumni of UWO) I won't argue that the CIS overall is as strong in hockey as the NCAA. I do believe however that the top CIS programs (UNB, McGill, Western, etc) would be fine in the top levels of DI NCAA.
Having said that does anyone think there would be a market for say a series between the CIS and NCAA champions when both the Frozen Four and University Cup tournaments are complete? Would there be interest for this by the CIS and/or NCAA and what do people think the outcome of such a series would be most years? I would envision something like a best 3 of 5 (trying to respect that these players are students and this is exam time) with games in both the US and Canada.
There use to be a tournament, a dozen or so years back, that featured the CIS allstars vs American born NCAA players....as for the CIS champs playing against a Frozen Four team, unlikely to happen as there are many rules and regs in the NCAA that would prevent such a contest.
In my opinion, the CIS team would really have there hands full and it could be a very lopsided score in the NCAA's favor.
There use to be a tournament, a dozen or so years back, that featured the CIS allstars vs American born NCAA players....as for the CIS champs playing against a Frozen Four team, unlikely to happen as there are many rules and regs in the NCAA that would prevent such a contest.
In my opinion, the CIS team would really have there hands full and it could be a very lopsided score in the NCAA's favor.
I remember that, and one of our contributors here, AUS Fan went to the games, seems to me it was only two years in the running. It was a one game deal that I remember, and whereas the CIS was loaded top down, 4 and 5th year guys, plus a lot of first year stars the CIS tends to get, the NCAA would only allow fourth year guys I think it was. Like VOB says there are many regulations imposed by the NCAA, the CIS could care less about. As for interest, I would venture it would be those already following the CIS closely, not a lot of new material.
A few AUS teams have been playing exhibition contests with the Hockey East conference over the past few years. Pretty evenly matched, to me the NCAA operates on a higher level than CIS, things like conditioning but if the CIS were to play in the same league regularly they all would climb to the same level in short time.
Another year, way back, our National Champion Acadia played Maine who had won their national title the year before, Kariya was still in the lineup before jumping to the Canadian Olympic Team, seemed to me they played two games, I recall Maine trouncing them one game, not sure of the other. UNB has played Maine a couple of times last few years. The UNB guys will be able to tell you more on that.
From the teams I have seen from Canada and I have probably seen 5 different ones the last few years, I don't think it would be much of a contest in the NCAAs favor. Just my 2 cents.
1997 was the first game, played at the Joe. Team Canada was made up of players from across the CIS and Team USA was composed of Seniors only. The rational for that was they were playing against "professionals" and it would invalidate their scholarships. Being Seniors, they were gone anyway.
Decent crowd at the game, 7000 or so, most from Windsor with 5 or 6 Americans in the audience. Darryl Young (Dal), Marlin Muylaert (Guelph) and Tim Bothwell (Cal) were the coaches.
Game ended up going to OT and Acadia's Greg Clancy scored the winner.
FYI, Tim Thomas was the US goalie.
I didn't go the second year, but the team wasn't as good and the Americans (I think) had a couple of Canadian players.
While I think the NCAA champ would win a good majority of the games there is no doubt in my mind that the very top CIS teams (maybe the top 4 or 5) could compete against the top tier NCAA teams.
A few years ago Boston College, who were the reigning champs at the time, came up to Fredericton to play UNB and the two teams split. UNB has beaten Holy Cross, RPI, Maine twice, UMass Amherst twice, Union, New Hampshire, and Vermont twice in the past few years. They have also tied UMass Lowell and had a few close losses to BU. Now of course, most of these games are played at the beginning of the year when UNB has played a bunch of games already and the NCAA teams are usually seeing their first game action, so things might be different at the end of the season.
Just curious Dakota...what Canadian teams have you seen the past few years?
While I think the NCAA champ would win a good majority of the games there is no doubt in my mind that the very top CIS teams (maybe the top 4 or 5) could compete against the top tier NCAA teams.
A few years ago Boston College, who were the reigning champs at the time, came up to Fredericton to play UNB and the two teams split. UNB has beaten Holy Cross, RPI, Maine twice, UMass Amherst twice, Union, New Hampshire, and Vermont twice in the past few years. They have also tied UMass Lowell and had a few close losses to BU. Now of course, most of these games are played at the beginning of the year when UNB has played a bunch of games already and the NCAA teams are usually seeing their first game action, so things might be different at the end of the season.
Just curious Dakota...what Canadian teams have you seen the past few years?
I have seen Manitoba,Alberta,McGill,and Saskatawan and one other I can't think of right now.
While I think the NCAA champ would win a good majority of the games there is no doubt in my mind that the very top CIS teams (maybe the top 4 or 5) could compete against the top tier NCAA teams.
A few years ago Boston College, who were the reigning champs at the time, came up to Fredericton to play UNB and the two teams split. UNB has beaten Holy Cross, RPI, Maine twice, UMass Amherst twice, Union, New Hampshire, and Vermont twice in the past few years. They have also tied UMass Lowell and had a few close losses to BU. Now of course, most of these games are played at the beginning of the year when UNB has played a bunch of games already and the NCAA teams are usually seeing their first game action, so things might be different at the end of the season.
Just curious Dakota...what Canadian teams have you seen the past few years?
it would be an epic beatdown....not even close.
how many NCAA teams have you seen? I need to ask that if you think this would be a good idea....
Asked Jerry York how he felt the UNB team of a couple of years ago would do in D1 on a day-to-day basis; this after his reigning NCAA championship team split a pair at Christmastime against UNB. He felt UNB would be "very competitive". Games against Union College -- they were a lower echelon team in Hockey East then -- and Providence were very competitive and entertaining. I think a best-of-seven among the NCAA and CIS champions would be closer than you think: certainly not a sweep either way.
Granted most of my exposure to NCAA hockey has been confined to mainly Hockey East, but are there other teams around the country that are that much better than BC, BU, Maine (although they aren't what they once where) on a yearly basis?
I would love to see UNB play some teams from other conferences but obviously the travel would be too costly.
Keep in mind that I said I expect the NCAA teams would still win the fair majority of the games...but I highly doubt it would be an "epic beat down", I would bet that almost every game would be within a couple goals.
UNB has two guys on their team who played NCAA hockey and neither of them could crack the roster for more than a handful of games this season.
In the early 90's or late 80's the tourney or game was called the Can-Am Cup. All-star teams
If I remember properly because of NCAA eligibility rules at the time only graduating NCAA players were allowed as they would be playing ex-pros (CHL).
This rule obviously has been changed because we see inter-locking exhibition games now.
I remember one game (but not the date) since I was a salesman at the time and storm stayed by one of NB's mid spring blizzards in a motel with no restaurant or bar only a TV.
Team Canada won.
Granted most of my exposure to NCAA hockey has been confined to mainly Hockey East, but are there other teams around the country that are that much better than BC, BU, Maine (although they aren't what they once where) on a yearly basis?
I would love to see UNB play some teams from other conferences but obviously the travel would be too costly.
Keep in mind that I said I expect the NCAA teams would still win the fair majority of the games...but I highly doubt it would be an "epic beat down", I would bet that almost every game would be within a couple goals.
UNB has two guys on their team who played NCAA hockey and neither of them could crack the roster for more than a handful of games this season.
I tend to agree although it is hard to be sure.
When CIS teams play NCAA the games are always in the US. And from what I have seen the Canadian schools usually end up playing 3 games in 3 or 4 nights (and traveling as well in that time.) So there is a built in advantage for the US schools right here. While I agree that the NCAA on a whole is stronger, they always have the edge of home ice and not traveling when they face the CIS. I know top NCAA schools have been invited to play in Canada many times and the answer is always no. (In a way it is similar to how Canada approached international hockey after the 1972 Summit. That is when they sent their best they insisted all games had to be played in Canada. The NCAA is the same. They won’t travel – you have to come to them.)
I think if such a series took place I do believe the champion CIS team would not embarrass themselves. Again while it is hard to judge from exhibition games when the CIS elite do play NCAA opposition they generally do okay. I am not saying they would win. But I think you’d see a series of well played competitive games.
When CIS teams play NCAA the games are always in the US. And from what I have seen the Canadian schools usually end up playing 3 games in 3 or 4 nights (and traveling as well in that time.) So there is a built in advantage for the US schools right here. While I agree that the NCAA on a whole is stronger, they always have the edge of home ice and not traveling when they face the CIS. I know top NCAA schools have been invited to play in Canada many times and the answer is always no. (In a way it is similar to how Canada approached international hockey after the 1972 Summit. That is when they sent their best they insisted all games had to be played in Canada. The NCAA is the same. They won’t travel – you have to come to them.)
I think if such a series took place I do believe the champion CIS team would not embarrass themselves. Again while it is hard to judge from exhibition games when the CIS elite do lay NCAA opposition they generally do okay. I am not saying they would win. But I think you’d see a series of well played competitive games.
This is a point I wanted to make too, but forgot. There are a whole host of factors, you cannot pinpoint to any one thing as an advantage or disadvantage. IMO the NCAA operates on a whole different level, driven by much more money and resources. But if a CIS allstar team, or CIS Champion were to play the NCAA rep of the same, no explanation is needed for the heart and spirit the Canadians will bring to the game. They bring this element to a whole new level. Like the previous contributor said, nobody would be embrarrassed. It really does not prove anything one way or the other, both great "teams" the games would be split, yeah someone would win, but doesn't prove once and for all they are better, only at that moment.
I would love to see the CIS champ play the NCAA champ, but it would be too hard to schedule. NCAA is finishing up Frozen 4 this weekend while many CIS schools start final exams next week.
As for a composite all-star team, graduating seniors in the CIS that have the ability have already jumped to the AHL or ECHL on ATO's, the same as NCAA players from teams already eliminated from the playoffs. And has been mentioned, the NCAA has shown that they have a hair up their bottom about deciding that players who play post-season exhibition games lose their NCAA eligibility.
As for CIS teams vs. NCAA Div I teams, you cannot judge all CIS teams by those some may have seen play. There can be a disparity between the top and bottom teams, particularly in Ontario and Quebec where half the hockey programs would be 'Div II' or 'Div III' if the CIS had such a thing. Despite bus legs and multi-game weekends against fresh NCAA teams, the better CIS teams have proven that they can certainly play with Div I schools, and even win games. UNB is one of the few CIS teams that has hosted NCAA teams mid-season, and has been mentioned they split with BC a couple of years ago.
But you're comparing apples and oranges. NCAA Div I competes with Major Junior for NHL-bound prospects. The CIS partners with Major Junior and provides a place for the older Junior grads to get an education while still playing good hockey.
Generally speaking, NCAA teams will win over CIS teams. One can say that UNB split with BC or UNB beat U-Mass, etc, but overall the NCAA will win more than they lose.
There is nothing wrong with this; we don't have to grasp at straws and point out that a CIS team won one game here or there.
As I mentioned before, a CIS all-star team went to OT before beating a NCAA team which was NOT an all-star team, but a Seniors all-star. They did not have their best players.
The CIS champion would play the NCAA champion who would have Canadian players, so it is n ot a Can-USA event.
Someone mentioned ex-NCAA players at UNB who couldn't crack the roster. They obviously couldn't crack the roster at their previous school, or they wouldn't be at UNB.
for what its worth, a lot of NCAA schools take those exhibition games to get a feel for their new players and possible line combinations, and dont include some of their players that they know will be their starters .. idk how CIS treats these games, maybe they do the same, but I wouldn't take the exhibition results all that seriously
Timbit was right - the series was called the Can-Am Cup.
However, it was not sanctioned by either the NCAA or CIS, so anyone playing in the games would be considered 'pro' by either league. It was a for-profit event.
I believe Jeff Andrews or Dax MacLean from UNB played in the '99 games.
As for CIS vs NCAA exhibition games - they do not count towards CIS record. They may appear in a team's overall record, but that is only used for marketing. Only Conference games are counted towards year-end points and placement for playoffs.
